Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Part Stoutness

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

ifly4fun2(at)sbcglobal.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: Part Stoutness

List,



Is there any 701 builders who would recommend increasing material thickness of any particular

airframe part that would help prevent oil canning etc...? 

If so which ones? 

Art

Scrathin 701

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:55 am Post subject: Part Stoutness

The skins are the part that will oilcan, and because the skins are the 

largest part.... increasing the thickness will add some amount weight. 

 From what I have read the 701 has a "useful load" problem anyway so you 

don't want to just go off increasing the skin thickness.



The way to do it is to add lightweight stiffeners. Bend up some .016 L 

angles (if you can find thinner metal that's even better) about 3/4 x 

3/4. You might have to crimp them (fluting pliers) to make them curve to 

match an airfoil or something. You can use the rib form blocks to make 

them match the airfoil (but the crimps will be on the opposite part as 

they are for the ribs).



Rivet them inside the skins diagonally between the fuselage stations 

(I've seen a website or two that shows these stiffeners). Rivet the 

curved ones in as "false ribs" between the wing ribs.



Before you do this, contact people with flying 701's and ask them which 

parts of their airplane oil-can the most. This iwll give you an idea of 

where they are needed most. Top of the wings behind the spars are my 

first suspicion.



Bill the New Guy

 	  Quote: 	
		   Is there any 701 builders who would recommend increasing material thickness of any particular

 airframe part that would help prevent oil canning etc...? 

 If so which ones?

dougsnash(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: Part Stoutness

Art, I am not flying yet but have my airframe sitting

on the gear.  The large bays of the fuselage sides are

going to be prone to oilcanning.  I added one diagnal

brace to each bay on mine.  I think the big area

immediately behind the baggage compartment is still

going to oil can so I will probably add another

diagnal brace there once I'm flying.



Mark Townsend recommended that I go with 020 wing

skins to deaden the oil canning tendancy.  I have done

this but have not yet started skinning my wings. so

cannot comment on how stiff they will be.



Doug MacDonald

NW Ontario, Canada

Scratch building CH-701

Working on wiring the inst panel



Do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
		   List,

 

 Is there any 701 builders who would recommend

 increasing material thickness of any particular

 airframe part that would help prevent oil canning

 etc...? 

 If so which ones? 

 

 

 Art

 Scrathin 701


	


Be a better friend, newshound, and 

know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

john.marzulli(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: Part Stoutness

Not flying yet... but I did add some extra "L" onto the fuselage for noise reduction.



http://701builder.blogspot.com/2007_10_01_archive.html 



For the triangular area where "top pilot side" is written, I added some 1/4" sound deadening material to help reduce the noise when uncoordinated. The whole rear section tends to act like a megaphone. 



As for the wings, do consider increasing the thickness of the top skins to 0.020. This will allow for much better handling and fewer blemished. You may also want to consider using two or three smaller pieces ( overlapping them at the ribs ) instead of one huge skin. 



Good luck!



On Jan 21, 2008 12:17 PM, MacDonald Doug <dougsnash(at)yahoo.com (dougsnash(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: MacDonald Doug <dougsnash(at)yahoo.com (dougsnash(at)yahoo.com)>



Art, I am not flying yet but have my airframe sitting

on the gear.  The large bays of the fuselage sides are 

going to be prone to oilcanning.  I added one diagnal

brace to each bay on mine.  I think the big area

immediately behind the baggage compartment is still

going to oil can so I will probably add another

diagnal brace there once I'm flying. 



Mark Townsend recommended that I go with 020 wing

skins to deaden the oil canning tendancy.  I have done

this but have not yet started skinning my wings. so

cannot comment on how stiff they will be.



 Doug MacDonald

NW Ontario, Canada

Scratch building CH-701

Working on wiring the inst panel



Do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
		   List,



 Is there any 701 builders who would recommend 

 increasing material thickness of any particular

 airframe part that would help prevent oil canning

 etc...?

 If so which ones?


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Art

 Scrathin 701


	




 

Be a better friend, newshound, and

know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 



"Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.

-Airplane The Movie  [quote][b]

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject: Part Stoutness

We have  150+ hrs of fun flying in our 701,  the wings and fuselage built as in the plans,  yes,  it will oilcan  if you are not a good pilot     oilcanning is the best "sound alarm"  to "shout" to the pilot that the ball is off center     

  The 701 is no diferent to any other airplane,  the lighter the better it flys.

   

  Saludos

  Gary Gower.

  Flying from Chapala, Mexico.

  701 912S

  Building a 601 XL Jab 3300

   

  

Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Berle 



The skins are the part that will oilcan, and because the skins are the 

largest part.... increasing the  thickness will add some amount weight. 

From what I have read the 701 has a "useful load" problem anyway so you 

don't want to just go off increasing the skin thickness.



The way to do it is to add lightweight stiffeners. Bend up some .016 L 

angles (if you can find thinner metal that's even better) about 3/4 x 

3/4. You might have to crimp them (fluting pliers) to make them curve to 

match an airfoil or something. You can use the rib form blocks to make 

them match the airfoil (but the crimps will be on the opposite part as 

they are for the ribs).



Rivet them inside the skins diagonally between the fuselage stations 

(I've seen a website or two that shows these stiffeners). Rivet the 

curved ones in as "false ribs" between the wing ribs.



Before you do this, contact people with flying 701's and ask them which 

parts of their airplane oil-can the most. This iwll give you an idea of 

where they are needed most. Top of the      [quote][b]

ifly4fun2(at)sbcglobal.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: Part Stoutness

Gary,

Makes sense, I will take your input into consideration.

do not archive

Thanks,

Art

--- Gary Gower <ggower_99(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   We have  150+ hrs of fun flying in our 701,  the wings and fuselage built as in the plans,  yes,

  it will oilcan  if you are not a good pilot     oilcanning is the best "sound alarm"  to

 "shout" to the pilot that the ball is off center     

   The 701 is no diferent to any other airplane,  the lighter the better it flys.

   Saludos

   Gary Gower.

   Flying from Chapala, Mexico.

   701 912S

   Building a 601 XL Jab 3300

 Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

 The skins are the part that will oilcan, and because the skins are the 

 largest part.... increasing the thickness will add some amount weight. 

 >From what I have read the 701 has a "useful load" problem anyway so you 

 don't want to just go off increasing the skin thickness.

 The way to do it is to add lightweight stiffeners. Bend up some .016 L 

 angles (if you can find thinner metal that's even better) about 3/4 x 

 3/4. You might have to crimp them (fluting pliers) to make them curve to 

 match an airfoil or something. You can use the rib form blocks to make 

 them match the airfoil (but the crimps will be on the opposite part as 

 they are for the ribs).

 Rivet them inside the skins diagonally between the fuselage stations 

 (I've seen a website or two that shows these stiffeners). Rivet the 

 curved ones in as "false ribs" between the wing ribs.

 Before you do this, contact people with flying 701's and ask them which 

 parts of their airplane oil-can the most. This iwll give you an idea of 

 where they are needed most. Top of the wings behind the spars are my 

 first suspicion.

 Bill the New Guy

 > Is there any 701 builders who would recommend increasing material thickness of any particular

 > airframe part that would help prevent oil canning etc...? 

 > If so which ones? 

 > 

 ---------------------------------

 Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.

ifly4fun2(at)sbcglobal.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: Part Stoutness

Doug,

Thanks for the advise, I'll take it into consideration.

do not archive

Art 

--- MacDonald Doug <dougsnash(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Art, I am not flying yet but have my airframe sitting

 on the gear.  The large bays of the fuselage sides are

 going to be prone to oilcanning.  I added one diagnal

 brace to each bay on mine.  I think the big area

 immediately behind the baggage compartment is still

 going to oil can so I will probably add another

 diagnal brace there once I'm flying.

 Mark Townsend recommended that I go with 020 wing

 skins to deaden the oil canning tendancy.  I have done

 this but have not yet started skinning my wings. so

 cannot comment on how stiff they will be.

 Doug MacDonald

 NW Ontario, Canada

 Scratch building CH-701

 Working on wiring the inst panel

 Do not archive

 > List,

 > 

 > Is there any 701 builders who would recommend

 > increasing material thickness of any particular

 > airframe part that would help prevent oil canning

 > etc...? 

 > If so which ones? 

 > 

 > 

 > Art

 > Scrathin 701

 Be a better friend, newshound, and 

 know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now. 

 http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

ifly4fun2(at)sbcglobal.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: Part Stoutness

Thanks for the input.



do not archive

Art

--- John Marzulli <john.marzulli(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Not flying yet... but I did add some extra "L" onto the fuselage for noise

 reduction.

 

 http://701builder.blogspot.com/2007_10_01_archive.html

 

 For the triangular area where "top pilot side" is written, I added some 1/4"

 sound deadening material to help reduce the noise when uncoordinated. The

 whole rear section tends to act like a megaphone.

 

 As for the wings, do consider increasing the thickness of the top skins to

 0.020. This will allow for much better handling and fewer blemished. You may

 also want to consider using two or three smaller pieces ( overlapping them

 at the ribs ) instead of one huge skin.

 

 Good luck!

 

 On Jan 21, 2008 12:17 PM, MacDonald Doug <dougsnash(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 

 > 

 >

 > Art, I am not flying yet but have my airframe sitting

 > on the gear.  The large bays of the fuselage sides are

 > going to be prone to oilcanning.  I added one diagnal

 > brace to each bay on mine.  I think the big area

 > immediately behind the baggage compartment is still

 > going to oil can so I will probably add another

 > diagnal brace there once I'm flying.

 >

 > Mark Townsend recommended that I go with 020 wing

 > skins to deaden the oil canning tendancy.  I have done

 > this but have not yet started skinning my wings. so

 > cannot comment on how stiff they will be.

 >

 > Doug MacDonald

 > NW Ontario, Canada

 > Scratch building CH-701

 > Working on wiring the inst panel

 >

 > Do not archive

 >

 > > List,

 > >

 > > Is there any 701 builders who would recommend

 > > increasing material thickness of any particular

 > > airframe part that would help prevent oil canning

 > > etc...?

 > > If so which ones?

 > >

 > >

 > > Art

 > > Scrathin 701

 >

 >

 >

 > Be a better friend, newshound, and

 > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

 > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 

 

 -- 

 John Marzulli

 http://701Builder.blogspot.com/

 

 "Flying a plane is no different than riding a bicycle... it's just a lot

 harder to put baseball cards in the spokes.

 -Airplane The Movie

ter_turn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:05 pm Post subject: Part Stoutness

I can't remember who to give credit to, but someone here glued "L" angles diagonally to the fuselage to reduce oil canning without creating extra rivet lines.

DO NOT ARCHIVE



Terry Turnquist

601XL-Plans

St. Peters, MO

Art Olechowski <ifly4fun2(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: Art Olechowski 



Thanks for the input.



do not archive

Art

--- John Marzulli  wrote:



[quote] Not flying yet... but I did add some extra "L" onto the fuselage for noise

 reduction.

 

 http://701builder.blogspot.com/2007_10_01_archive.html

 

 For the triangular area where "top pilot side" is written, I added some 1/4"

 sound deadening material to help reduce the noise when uncoordinated. The

 whole rear  section tends to act like a megaphone.

 

 As for the wings, do consider increasing the thickness of the top skins to

 0.020. This will allow for much better handling and fewer blemished. You may

 also want to consider using two or three smaller pieces ( overlapping them

 at the ribs ) instead of one huge skin.

 

 Good luck!

 

 On Jan 21, 2008 12:17 PM, MacDonald Doug  wrote:

 

 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: MacDonald Doug 

 >

 > Art, I am not flying yet but have my airframe sitting

 > on the gear.  The large bays of the fuselage sides are

 > going to be prone to oilcanning.  I added one diagnal

 > brace to each bay on mine.  I think the big area

 > immediately behind the baggage compartment is still

 > going to oil can so I will probably add another

 > diagnal  brace there once I'm flying.

 >

 > Mark Townsend recommended that I go with 020 wing

 > skins to deaden the oil canning tendancy.  I have done

 > this but have not yet started skinning my wings. so

 > cannot comment on how stiff they will be.

 >

 > Doug MacDonald

 > NW Ontario, Canada

 > Scratch building CH-701

 > Working on wiring the inst panel

 >

 > Do not archive

 >

 > > List,

 > >

 > > Is there any 701 builders who would recommend

 > > increasing material thickness of any particular

 > > airframe part that would help prevent oil canning

 > > etc...?

 > > If so which ones?

 > >

 > >

 > > Art

 > > Scrathin 701

 >

 >

 >

 > Be a better friend, newshound,       Be a better friend, newshound, and  [quote][b]

lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: Part Stoutness

That be me.  I used automotive double sided  trim tape, 3M brand.  You can find it at NAPA.  LRM www.skyhawg.com 

 [quote]   ---

alaskajim(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:25 am Post subject: Part Stoutness

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: Part Stoutness

The double stick tape is a good idea, however it might be wise to put 

three rivets in... one on each end and one in the middle... to prevent 

the TINY vibrations from ever loosening the tape. Yeah, the airplane 

will have a million and three rivets instead of just a million 



LRM wrote:

[quote] That be me.  I used automotive double sided trim tape, 3M brand.  You 

 can find it at NAPA.  LRM www.skyhawg.com <http://www.skyhawg.com>



     ---

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: Part Stoutness

That is exactly what I did except I used 5 in each piece. Works great,  thanks Larry!!

  

 Bob Spudis

  

  In a message dated 1/23/2008 1:07:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Berle    <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>



The double stick tape is a good idea,    however it might be wise to put 

three rivets in... one on each end and one    in the middle... to prevent 

the TINY vibrations from ever loosening the    tape. Yeah, the airplane 

will have a million and three rivets instead of    just a million 



LRM wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   That be me.  I used    automotive double sided trim tape, 3M brand.  You 

 can find it at    NAPA.  LRM www.skyhawg.com    <http://www.skyhawg.com>



     -----    Original Message -----

     *From:* Terry Turnquist    <mailto:ter_turn(at)yahoo.com>

     *To:*    zenith-list(at)matronics.com    <mailto:zenith-list(at)matronics.com>

     *Sent:*    Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:01 PM

     *Subject:* Re:    Part Stoutness



     I can't    remember who to give credit to, but someone here glued "L"

        angles diagonally to the fuselage to reduce oil canning    without

     creating extra rivet  he  es  y       -->                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  nbsp;               - List Contribution Web Site  ;                             =========================


	


	




Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: Part Stoutness

I did put them on each end.  Didn't see a need for the middle.  One piece of 

the "X" was solid and the other was bridged over the first.  That's the kind 

of tape that you better have it where you want it when you stick it, cause 

you ain't gonna move it without tearing up something.  I also used a "acid 

wash" first.  You have to buy the good stuff at a real auto parts that 

handles paint and body repair stuff, don't get it at Wal-Mart.  As far as 

lasting, I've had to remove trim off cars 20+ years old and had one heck of 

a time doing it.   You usually have to razor blade it off.  LRM, skyhawg.com

---

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject: Part Stoutness

it is likely that the 3M tape is VHB (very high bond). That is the tape that virtually all busses (other than the riveted school busses!) are build with today. The adhesive on both faces and the foam body of the tape is relatively insensitive to solvents and to service temperatures below 200°F. The addition of a rivet will likely result in eventual cracking due to the aluminum being forced out of plane at the fastener location.



The surfaces need to be as clean as can be achieved. If the appropriate level of surface cleanliness is attained, that stuff is virtually indistructable.



Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bill Berle 



The double stick tape is a good idea, however it might be wise to put 

three rivets in... one on each end and one in the  Downey

  Harleysville (SE) PA

  100 HP Corvair

       [quote][b]

dkandle

Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 10
Location: Boise ID

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Part Stoutness

I have been flying my 701 since August.  It is built exactly to plans with the only modification being head rests.



Unless you slip the plane or are flying very slowly, oil canning is not a problem.  I have noted that it appears to be somewhat more noisy in the winter than summer.  I assume that the skin is a bit tighter in the heat.



I plan to put some sound proofing around the baggage area, but otherwise leave it alone.



I have flown other 701 that make more noise.  I think that if you are not careful to get the sides carefully cut and placed, the airplane may oil can more than if they are smooth and evenly bowed as designed.

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum