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AirMike
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada
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 Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:32 pm Post subject: Heated Pitot |
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I am a high time VFR pilot. I am trying to get my plane set up for lite IFR.
In other words - installing one Garmin SL30 with GS & Audio w/MB lites
I have been advised by others in EAA and prior posts on this site that having a heated Pitot is a must.
Is Gretz GA1000 the best choice. I am already on board with the Advanced Flight systems AF-3500 system with AOA
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_________________
See you OSH '18
Q/B - sold. |
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apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: Heated Pitot |
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No regulatory requirement for heated pitot. Depends on typical icing
where you typically fly. I flew years with unheated pitot where I got
rime icing. Never blocked pitot. I would expect it would be more
essential where clear ice is more common. If you stay out of icing
(good plan) heated pitot isn't needed at all, just depends on whether
you feel the need for that extra insurance.
On Jan 22, 2008 12:32 AM, AirMike <Mikeabel(at)pacbell.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
I am a high time VFR pilot. I am trying to get my plane set up for lite IFR.
In other words - installing one Garmin SL30 with GS & Audio w/MB lites
I have been advised by others in EAA and prior posts on this site that having a heated Pitot is a must.
Is Gretz GA1000 the best choice. I am already on board with the Advanced Flight systems AF-3500 system with AOA
--------
OSH '08 or Bust
Q/B Kit - Doors/windows/fiberglass stuff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159714#159714
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Dave(at)AirCraftersLLC.co
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:54 am Post subject: Heated Pitot |
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We've installed two or three. They work very well. I have one on my 10.
I haven't been in ice with it but another plane in our hangar has a few
times. No problems.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
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CJohnston(at)popsound.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: Heated Pitot |
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Just a point of interest that I'd add here.
***alert - dark and stormy night story below! If you're bored by dumb
newbie flying stories, it would suffice to say that I'm pro pitot heat
for an aircraft that is meant to fly cross country, or any IFR flights.
Last year I was working on my instrument rating, and it just happened to
be the rainiest couple months that SoCal had on record, which was just
perfect for getting actual IMC time. During one of my more stressful
flights, we were puttering around the Los Angeles area, doing approaches
into a bunch of different airports. It was bumpy, it was night, and it
was a handful. One of those flights that you just have to keep battling
with your inner ear, because if you didn't have a good scan going, you'd
believe that the airplane was doing backflips. The freezing level
dropped a bit, and we started picking up rime ice. We started to head
back to SMO, and with all that was going on, I forgot to turn on the
pitot heat. It really should have been on from takeoff. Anyway, I was
already seeing that we weren't getting the speed that we should have at
a known power setting. It was just a couple knots slow, but since we
were in the clouds, we knew it wouldn't be long before a bit slow turned
into real slow. Now I'm staring at the ASI and comparing it to the ALT,
the VSI, and the AI, keeping my scan going, and the ASI slows, slows,
slows, and goes to zero. During the time that it was slowing, my brain
had to work overtime comparing instruments to sort out what was
happening. I had figured it out before it got to zero and flipped on
the pitot heat. The instructor and I just sat there, waiting for it to
come back alive. Which it did after what seemed like an eternity. All
that partial panel stuff really works, but at the time I was very much
in practice. Ultimately, we advised ATC of our situation, got lower
(after what seemed like forever waiting for a Lear or Citation to get
down ahead of us) and landed home safe. I obviously learned quite a bit
from this experience, and it remains the absolute scariest experience
that I've had in an airplane. I'd caution against the notion of light
IFR, and I would never contemplate flying IFR without pitot heat. You
definitely never mean to pick up ice, and the above was my only (to
date) experience with it. knowing a bit more today than I did when this
happened, I realize now that my personal minimums are quite a bit higher
than my instructors were. I dunno. I guess that's a really long way of
saying that I think pitot heat is cheap and worthwhile insurance.
Just my experience, and just to be clear, I'm probably the lowest PIC
time instrument rated pilot you'll find. I gots lots to learn.
Cj
#40410
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
--
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n212pj(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:12 pm Post subject: Heated Pitot |
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CJ: good story to share, and good logic that a heated pitot is a cheap
insurance (life) investment. If you plan to have an IFR panel, do it right.
Backup instrumentation, navs, comms, batteries for critical flight
instruments, electrical generation... Don't screw around with IFR. Don't
ever consider IFR as light vs something else. Consider it IFR, period. End
of rant.
John Jessen
40328
Do not archive
--
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MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: Heated Pitot |
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Yes, thanks for the great story. I didn't want to start the rant on light IFR but said perfectly below per my experience.
It occurs to me that the pitot icing might have been fortunate in CJ's case - good warning of airframe icing. I've only actually been aware of pitot icing once and the airframe was icing at the same rate (whew!!!). I'm thinking that anytime the pitot is subject to icing, the airframe is doing the same but I don't know if that's actually the case.
Bill "piling on" Watson
John Jessen wrote: [quote] [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: John Jessen <n212pj(at)gmail.com> (n212pj(at)gmail.com) CJ: good story to share, and good logic that a heated pitot is a cheap insurance (life) investment. If you plan to have an IFR panel, do it right. Backup instrumentation, navs, comms, batteries for critical flight instruments, electrical generation... Don't screw around with IFR. Don't ever consider IFR as light vs something else. Consider it IFR, period. End of rant. John Jessen 40328 Do not archive --
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rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: Heated Pitot |
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looks like many reasons to use it have responded on the item of it being a
must - or not..
Here is my thoughts on the best choice currently out there.
Falcon- same price as Gretz
PH-502- $800 plus
Gretz offers a heated system that turns on and off as needed
(automatically), the others are full on or off-determined by pilot choosing
to have it on or off.
Me, I will chose the Gretz for these features and feedback that they work as
advertised.
If there is someone (Tim?) that has comments on the Gretz performance,
please advise.
Pascal
---
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: Heated Pitot |
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Chris....did I ever tell you I was proud of you for getting your
instrument rating? It was nice that you saw the importance, and
did it. Now, I should let you in on the good news....with synthetic
vision, I've never once had the "leans", but always ended up getting
them pretty bad while IFR on steam gauges. You don't know how much
better off you'll be.
Pascal: RE the Gretz pitot comments.... I can't tell you that I've
been all iced up and those things saved my butt. If you turn them
on ahead of time, they should stay ice free and no news is good news.
All I can say is that they seem to work as advertised...you turn
them on, they cycle on and off, and they aren't a constant drain
on your electrical system. Plus, they're safe if you leave them
on while on the ground...they don't heat to a level that would burn
someone. So, all in all, it's tough to give a great review but they
haven't shown me any negatives yet. Since you can use a plain piece
of tubing as a pitot, my general feeling is other than the heating
concerns or methods, a pitot is a pitot.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Chris Johnston wrote:
[quote]
Just a point of interest that I'd add here.
***alert - dark and stormy night story below! If you're bored by dumb
newbie flying stories, it would suffice to say that I'm pro pitot heat
for an aircraft that is meant to fly cross country, or any IFR flights.
Last year I was working on my instrument rating, and it just happened to
be the rainiest couple months that SoCal had on record, which was just
perfect for getting actual IMC time. During one of my more stressful
flights, we were puttering around the Los Angeles area, doing approaches
into a bunch of different airports. It was bumpy, it was night, and it
was a handful. One of those flights that you just have to keep battling
with your inner ear, because if you didn't have a good scan going, you'd
believe that the airplane was doing backflips. The freezing level
dropped a bit, and we started picking up rime ice. We started to head
back to SMO, and with all that was going on, I forgot to turn on the
pitot heat. It really should have been on from takeoff. Anyway, I was
already seeing that we weren't getting the speed that we should have at
a known power setting. It was just a couple knots slow, but since we
were in the clouds, we knew it wouldn't be long before a bit slow turned
into real slow. Now I'm staring at the ASI and comparing it to the ALT,
the VSI, and the AI, keeping my scan going, and the ASI slows, slows,
slows, and goes to zero. During the time that it was slowing, my brain
had to work overtime comparing instruments to sort out what was
happening. I had figured it out before it got to zero and flipped on
the pitot heat. The instructor and I just sat there, waiting for it to
come back alive. Which it did after what seemed like an eternity. All
that partial panel stuff really works, but at the time I was very much
in practice. Ultimately, we advised ATC of our situation, got lower
(after what seemed like forever waiting for a Lear or Citation to get
down ahead of us) and landed home safe. I obviously learned quite a bit
from this experience, and it remains the absolute scariest experience
that I've had in an airplane. I'd caution against the notion of light
IFR, and I would never contemplate flying IFR without pitot heat. You
definitely never mean to pick up ice, and the above was my only (to
date) experience with it. knowing a bit more today than I did when this
happened, I realize now that my personal minimums are quite a bit higher
than my instructors were. I dunno. I guess that's a really long way of
saying that I think pitot heat is cheap and worthwhile insurance.
Just my experience, and just to be clear, I'm probably the lowest PIC
time instrument rated pilot you'll find. I gots lots to learn.
Cj
#40410
www.perfectlygoodairplane.net
--
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rwhunter(at)integra.net
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GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: Heated Pitot |
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Rob a sad accident report...but they call the weather IFR...yet say the visibility was 5+ unlimited and ceiling 2,500' although they note sleet...seems something on weather is missing...sadly 3 fatals...
P
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.
[quote][b]
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rwhunter(at)integra.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: Heated Pitot |
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This actually happened at altitude. The weather was at the accident site. They had ob
[quote]
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: Heated Pitot |
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The reason is that all three pitot tubes iced; trapping low altitude air pressure inside. due to the rapid climb the decreasing outside static pressure made the airspeed seem to continue to rise. The crew marveled at the airspeed and kept pitching up to slow the aircraft which just made the airspeed indication go higher. They ignored the attitude indicator and the aircraft finally entered a stall/spin at about 30+ degrees nose up. Took about a minute to hit the ground. IIRC they were on their way to pick up the Buffalo football team.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:30 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Heated Pitot
Rob a sad accident report...but they call the weather IFR...yet say the visibility was 5+ unlimited and ceiling 2,500' although they note sleet...seems something on weather is missing...sadly 3 fatals...
P
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject: Heated Pitot |
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In case you are wondering it can also happen in the descent. Iced in cruise and starting a descent the airspeed can indicate lower (or decreasing) than actual due to trapped pitot pressure at altitude. unless you pay attention to the attitude indicator you may be adding power and making a higher than normal approach speed even thought the airspeed indication shows normal approach speed. Never fixate on a single instrument , but consider them in total. Also there is a difference between IFR and IMC. all airline flights are required to be IFR but most have little if any IMC.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 4:39 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Heated Pitot
The reason is that all three pitot tubes iced; trapping low altitude air pressure inside. due to the rapid climb the decreasing outside static pressure made the airspeed seem to continue to rise. The crew marveled at the airspeed and kept pitching up to slow the aircraft which just made the airspeed indication go higher. They ignored the attitude indicator and the aircraft finally entered a stall/spin at about 30+ degrees nose up. Took about a minute to hit the ground. IIRC they were on their way to pick up the Buffalo football team.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:30 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Heated Pitot
Rob a sad accident report...but they call the weather IFR...yet say the visibility was 5+ unlimited and ceiling 2,500' although they note sleet...seems something on weather is missing...sadly 3 fatals...
P
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
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KiloPapa
Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Pearblossom, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: Heated Pitot |
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Good story!
Kevin
40494
do not archive
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston(at)popsound.com>
| Quote: |
Just a point of interest that I'd add here.
***alert - dark and stormy night story below! If you're
bored by dumb newbie flying stories, it would suffice to
say that I'm pro pitot heat for an aircraft that is meant
to fly cross country, or any IFR flights.
|
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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_________________
Kevin
40494
do not archive |
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GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:09 am Post subject: Heated Pitot |
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Guess they missed an item on the check list (pitot heat on before entering clouds) and been out of practice on cross checking instruments...sad
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.
[quote][b]
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GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:17 am Post subject: Heated Pitot |
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In a message dated 1/23/2008 6:12:05 PM Central Standard Time, dlm46007(at)cox.net writes:
| Quote: | | all airline flights are required to be IFR but most have little if any IMC. |
Not an ATP here but I believe they are only required to file an Instrument plan if they have pax's aboard...as most know they are not required to carry ELT's because of the idea that they are generally always IFR flights...but occasionally they fly VFR when repositioning or moving a plane to a maintenance facility sans pax's and the weather is good enough for VFR...as this may save them time and fuel...several accidents have occured when in this condition.
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.
[quote][b]
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rene(at)felker.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: Heated Pitot |
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If they go over 18,000…..need an IFR flight plan. On that note, anyone done any service ceiling testing on their RV-10s? I plan on doing it on mine once I get flying, just looking for what to expect.
Rene' Felker
N423CF
40322
801-721-6080
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 9:11 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Heated Pitot
In a message dated 1/23/2008 6:12:05 PM Central Standard Time, dlm46007(at)cox.net writes:
| Quote: |
all airline flights are required to be IFR but most have little if any IMC. |
Not an ATP here but I believe they are only required to file an Instrument plan if they have pax's aboard...as most know they are not required to carry ELT's because of the idea that they are generally always IFR flights...but occasionally they fly VFR when repositioning or moving a plane to a maintenance facility sans pax's and the weather is good enough for VFR...as this may save them time and fuel...several accidents have occured when in this condition.
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
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jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:48 am Post subject: Heated Pitot |
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You can expect good speed and handling and decent climbing up to 18,000. It will get up to 21,000+ (I have it on good authority) when fairly heavy, but it doesn't like to climb there and doesn't fly very well. You could probably expect to have to drop the flaps to neutral to maintain altitude, and your indicated airspeed would not be too far above stall speed.
do not archive
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
On Jan 24, 2008, at 11:33 AM, Rene Felker wrote:
| Quote: | If they go over 18,000…..need an IFR flight plan. On that note, anyone done any service ceiling testing on their RV-10s? I plan on doing it on mine once I get flying, just looking for what to expect.
Rene' Felker
N423CF
40322
801-721-6080
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com (GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com)
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 9:11 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Heated Pitot
In a message dated 1/23/2008 6:12:05 PM Central Standard Time, dlm46007(at)cox.net (dlm46007(at)cox.net) writes:
| Quote: | all airline flights are required to be IFR but most have little if any IMC.
|
Not an ATP here but I believe they are only required to file an Instrument plan if they have pax's aboard...as most know they are not required to carry ELT's because of the idea that they are generally always IFR flights...but occasionally they fly VFR when repositioning or moving a plane to a maintenance facility sans pax's and the weather is good enough for VFR...as this may save them time and fuel...several accidents have occured when in this condition.
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.
0
1
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[quote][b]
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apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: Heated Pitot |
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AFAIK the IFR requirement will be in their Ops manual. However, I have flown jump seat on an Alaska Airlines 727 many years ago, that did entire flight VFR, as it was a 20 min flight and probably never went over 6000 ft.
On Jan 24, 2008 9:10 AM, <GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com (GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote] In a message dated 1/23/2008 6:12:05 PM Central Standard Time, dlm46007(at)cox.net (dlm46007(at)cox.net) writes:
| Quote: | | all airline flights are required to be IFR but most have little if any IMC. |
Not an ATP here but I believe they are only required to file an Instrument plan if they have pax's aboard...as most know they are not required to carry ELT's because of the idea that they are generally always IFR flights...but occasionally they fly VFR when repositioning or moving a plane to a maintenance facility sans pax's and the weather is good enough for VFR...as this may save them time and fuel...several accidents have occured when in this condition.
[b]
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