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The BaronVonEvil

Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Walla Walla, WA.

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: FAA Grants Extension...

Hi All,



This was just posted on the EAA website that The FAA is going to grant an extension for those have the registration in the works for ELSA.



So there is now a little breathing room for those who are frantically working on getting those planes done.



Best Regards

Carlos G

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: FAA Grants Extension...

EAA's E-LSA Exemption Request Approved 			  More time granted for aircraft already registered but awaiting inspection 			                                                                

January 23, 2008 — FAA's senior staff arrived for the annual mid-winter EAA/FAA summit meeting at the EAA Aviation Center in concert with official approval of EAA's exemption request for the transition of ultralights and two-place machines to the Experimental-Light-Sport Aircraft (E-LSA) category after the January 31 deadline.  

The exemption allows aircraft owners who have submitted their aircraft registration (n-number) application to the FAA Aircraft Registration Branch and had it entered into the FAA system on or before January 31, 2008, to complete the process, including issuance of an airworthiness certificate, beyond the deadline.  

"EAA is very pleased that FAA saw the necessity of this exemption to meet the backlog of applications to the E-LSA category," said Earl Lawrence, EAA's vice president of government and industry programs. "Our good working relationship with FAA allowed us to understand exactly what these aircraft owners needed, what the FAA would allow within a request, and the time-essential nature of this exemption approval."  

The exemption provides additional time for those already registered but awaiting inspection, and also provides relief for those facing certification issues beyond their control (i.e., severe weather preventing DAR travel, shortage of critical flight safety components from manufacturers, etc.) to complete the certification process beyond the deadline.  

More information on the exemption is available from EAA Aviation Services at 877-359-1232.  

The FAA senior staff is in Oshkosh for its annual session with EAA representatives, a unique gathering that allows for productive discussion of important aviation issues on many fronts, including homebuilt and vintage aircraft, sport pilot, warbirds, aerobatic flights, and more. This unmatched environment is allows an active exchange of concerns and ideas with top aviation policymakers, and direct progress toward workable solutions.  

More updates from the EAA/FAA summit session will be coming on the EAA website, e-Hotline and EAA publications.



On Jan 23, 2008 6:56 PM, The BaronVonEvil < grageda(at)innw.net (grageda(at)innw.net)> wrote:

[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "The BaronVonEvil" < grageda(at)innw.net (grageda(at)innw.net)>



Hi All,



This was just posted on the EAA website that The FAA is going to grant an extension for those have the registration in the works for ELSA.

 

So there is now a little breathing room for those who are frantically working on getting those planes done.



Best Regards

Carlos G





Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160100#160100

nics List Features Navigator to browse com/Navigator?Kolb-List" target="_blank"> rums!  Site -

 sp;                     &p://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ==============



[b]

Rick Lewis

Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 122
Location: Kingston, Tn.

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: FAA Grants Extension...

Please educate me on this.  I want to register my Kolb, that I'm now building, in the experimental light sport aircraft catagory.  Have I missed the boat or is the extension your talking about changing the way a completed aircraft is now registered?  I do want to be able to work on the aircraft myself and be able to fly it in the sport plane catagory.



               Rick Lewis

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: FAA Grants Extension...

Rick 

 if you Register your Plane E-LSA you will have to take a repairmen's course to be able to work on it your self, If you register it E-AB you will automatically get the repairmen Certificate  at the time of your inspection 

  Im sure I will be corrected here if I am telling you a fib but I am sure this is the way it is having been through a few inspections 

  

  

 Ellery in Maine Building one flying thing after another

  

 do not archive



Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: FAA Grants Extension...

Rick, You will have to really bust ass, but it might be possible. Go to FAA.gov and reserve an "N" number right now, you can pay with a credit card. Download form 8050-88A Fill it out checking the "I don't have any receipts" box and the "I can't get copies from the manufacturer" box. Do not sign it until in front of the Notary Public at your bank. Get a form 8050-1 from your local FSDO (it's a three parter and can't be downloaded. Get a money order and make it payable to the Dept of the Treasury just as 8050-1 says to do. Send it off tomorrow by next day delivery. Then pray, promise the Dear Lord your first born, be a better person, whatever you think will move the Man to work in your favor. As the announcement from EAA and FAA says "The exemption allows aircraft owners  who have submitted their aircraft registration (n-number) application to the FAA Aircraft Registration Branch and had it entered into the FAA system on or before January 31, 2008, to complete the process, including issuance of an airworthiness certificate, beyond the deadline."



Good Luck,

Rick Girard



On Jan 23, 2008 8:21 PM, Rick Lewis <cktman(at)hughes.net (cktman(at)hughes.net) > wrote:

[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rick Lewis" < cktman(at)hughes.net (cktman(at)hughes.net)>



Please educate me on this.  I want to register my Kolb, that I'm now building, in the experimental light sport aircraft catagory.  Have I missed the boat or is the extension your talking about changing the way a completed aircraft is now registered?  I do want to be able to work on the aircraft myself and be able to fly it in the sport plane catagory. 



               Rick Lewis





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160121#160121 

  [quote][b]

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: FAA Grants Extension...

Ellery's right. You will have to take a 16 hour class to do you own annual condition inspection, but you have a year to get that done. The only difference between E-LSA and E-AB is that under E-AB you are the only one who can get a repairman certificate for your airplane. If you sell it, the new owner will have to get an A & P to do them. Under E-LSA the new owner can take the class and get the certificate, too. May not make any difference to you right now, it might down the road, you'll have to decide. Neither one changes the requirements for the sport pilot license to fly it. 



Rick Girard



On Jan 23, 2008 8:37 PM,  <ElleryWeld(at)aol.com (ElleryWeld(at)aol.com)> wrote:

[quote]     Rick 

 if you Register your Plane E-LSA you will have to take a repairmen's course to be able to work on it your self, If you register it E-AB you will automatically get the repairmen Certificate  at the time of your inspection  

  Im sure I will be corrected here if I am telling you a fib but I am sure this is the way it is having been through a few inspections 

  

  

 Ellery in Maine Building one flying thing after another

  

 do not archive



 Start the year off right.   Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

   	  Quote: 	
		  

	




[b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: FAA Grants Extension...

At 09:21 PM 1/23/2008, Rick Lewis wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Please educate me on this.  I want to register my Kolb, that I'm now 

building, in the experimental light sport aircraft catagory.  Have I 

missed the boat or is the extension your talking about changing the way a 

completed aircraft is now registered?  I do want to be able to work on the 

aircraft myself and be able to fly it in the sport plane catagory.


	


Since you're building it yourself, why do you want to register it as E-LSA 

rather than experimental-amateur built?



-Dana

--

  The secret of the universe is (at)*^^^ NO CARRIER

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: FAA Grants Extension...

The end of the exemption for transitioning illegal airplanes to LSA kit 

built is drawing to a close. Does anyone know what has to be done to qualify 

a plane as a LSA kit built? I assume the kit builders need to certify the 

kits in some way. Has any kit builder certified their kits? More importantly 

has Kolb certified any of their kits. Do they have plans to do so?



My understanding is that Kolb aircraft will have to be registered as 

Experimental Amateur Built after 1/31/08. The only down side of E-AB is that 

if you sell the plane only a certified A&E can do annuals and maintenance on 

the plane.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:15 am Post subject: Re: FAA Grants Extension...

 	  NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: 	
		  The end of the exemption for transitioning illegal airplanes to LSA kit 

built is drawing to a close. Does anyone know what has to be done to qualify 

a plane as a LSA kit built? I assume the kit builders need to certify the 

kits in some way. Has any kit builder certified their kits? More importantly 

has Kolb certified any of their kits. Do they have plans to do so?



My understanding is that Kolb aircraft will have to be registered as 

Experimental Amateur Built after 1/31/08. The only down side of E-AB is that 

if you sell the plane only a certified A&E can do annuals and maintenance on 

the plane.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



--- 	




After the deadline, the only version of ELSA that will exist is the "approved kit" one, where the manufacturer first makes an SLSA version, etc.

Basically, the requirements for making these are the same as SLSA, since manufacturers will have to go through the SLSA process to begin with.



So I don't see too many of these appearing in the future or ever.



There are one or two here and there, but I don't remember which they are.



I don't believe Kolb is going to go the ELSA route with their kitplanes (smart move), so EAB looks like it'll remain the option with them.



As for EAB, the annual condition inspection is the only thing that requires either the repairman's cert or an AnP. Any and all maintenance can be done my anyone in the usual way. This is also true for ELSA, since it's also an experimental certification.



ELSA seems to give a higher resale because of the ability to do the annual CI's on them after taking the 16 hour class. 



SLSA is more like a dwarven Standard category with reduced certification/maint/annual requirements.



The Kolb flyer looks like Kolb's SLSA entry, but the kitplanes look like they're remain EAB.....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:56 am Post subject: FAA Grants Extension...

To market a qualifying kit after 01-31-2008 the manufacturer must build one aircraft and document it per ASTM F37 requirements as an S-LSA. Then they can sell kits that can be certificated as E-LSA per FAR 21.191i(2). The kit must be presented to the DAR or FAA rep in EXACTLY the same configuration as the qualifying S-LSA. Once you have the experimental certificate in your hand, you can do anything that falls within the LSA definition All that is required is a log book entry and putting the aircraft back into phase 1 flight testing for 5 hours. I verified this with Edsel Ford, director of the Light Sport branch in Oklahoma City, a couple of months ago. 

At this time M-Squared and Quad City Ultralights are the only companies selling qualifying kits, I think. Vans should have the RV-12 out any time now. I don't know of any others.



Rick Girard



 On Jan 24, 2008 9:54 AM, Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net (NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net (NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net)>



The end of the exemption for transitioning illegal airplanes to LSA kit 

built is drawing to a close. Does anyone know what has to be done to qualify

a plane as a LSA kit built? I assume the kit builders need to certify the

kits in some way. Has any kit builder certified their kits? More importantly 

has Kolb certified any of their kits. Do they have plans to do so?



My understanding is that Kolb aircraft will have to be registered as

Experimental Amateur Built after 1/31/08. The only down side of E-AB is that 

if you sell the plane only a certified A&E can do annuals and maintenance on

the plane.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: Re: FAA Grants Extension...

Rick,



...At this time M-Squared and Quad City Ultralights are the only companies selling qualifying kits, I think. Vans should have the RV-12 out any time now. I don't know of any others....



Many, but not all, of the SLSA manufacturers are selling ELSA kits. For example, Allegro, Rans (S-7), Zlin Savage....

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: FAA Grants Extension...

Pure flight of fancy here, but.........

... it seems to me that if the EAA really wanted to do something

useful to it's newly minted LSA crowd, they'd petition the FAA so

that, once a kit plane was finished and gotten it's airworthiness and

registration, that they then give the builder the option to make it an

E-AB or an E-LSA (assuming it's within the LSA performance envelope).

I'm sure someone will point out that a kit plane not built to ASTM

spec may get an airworthiness, but the FAA will want an A&P inspecting

it every year, to make sure it's safe.  But, if you take a E-LSA/ASTM

kit plane, get it built to spec and then get the airworthiness, from

that point on, just about anything could change on it since it's

experimental.  So, what's the difference between an E-AB and a heavily

modified E-LSA?  If you say you need an A&P to inspect one kind, then

why is a 16-hour class okay for the other?

So, I think there's some bad faith here by the FAA (uh, -more- bad

faith; I'm still pissed about how future UL pilots are gonna get

trained), because the logic of it is faulty.

  -- Robert

On 1/24/08, lucien <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote:

 > The end of the exemption for transitioning illegal airplanes to LSA kit

 > built is drawing to a close. Does anyone know what has to be done to qualify

 > a plane as a LSA kit built? I assume the kit builders need to certify the

 > kits in some way. Has any kit builder certified their kits? More importantly

 > has Kolb certified any of their kits. Do they have plans to do so?

 >

 > My understanding is that Kolb aircraft will have to be registered as

 > Experimental Amateur Built after 1/31/08. The only down side of E-AB is that

 > if you sell the plane only a certified A&E can do annuals and maintenance on

 > the plane.

 >

 > Rick Neilsen

 > Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 >

 > ---

 After the deadline, the only version of ELSA that will exist is the "approved kit" one, where the manufacturer first makes an SLSA version, etc.

 Basically, the requirements for making these are the same as SLSA, since manufacturers will have to go through the SLSA process to begin with.

 So I don't see too many of these appearing in the future or ever.

 There are one or two here and there, but I don't remember which they are.

 I don't believe Kolb is going to go the ELSA route with their kitplanes (smart move), so EAB looks like it'll remain the option with them.

 As for EAB, the annual condition inspection is the only thing that requires either the repairman's cert or an AnP. Any and all maintenance can be done my anyone in the usual way. This is also true for ELSA, since it's also an experimental certification.

 ELSA seems to give a higher resale because of the ability to do the annual CI's on them after taking the 16 hour class.

 SLSA is more like a dwarven Standard category with reduced certification/maint/annual requirements.

 The Kolb flyer looks like Kolb's SLSA entry, but the kitplanes look like they're remain EAB.....

 LS

 --------

 LS

 FS II

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160218#160218

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: FAA Grants Extension...

 	  Rick Lewis wrote: 	
		  Please educate me on this.  I want to register my Kolb, that I'm now building, in the experimental light sport aircraft catagory.  Have I missed the boat or is the extension your talking about changing the way a completed aircraft is now registered?  I do want to be able to work on the aircraft myself and be able to fly it in the sport plane catagory.



Rick Lewis 	




Rick, there is no deadline for Experimental Amateur Built (E-AB). If you built it, you can register and repair it without taking a repairman course.

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: FAA Grants Extension...

At 05:32 PM 1/24/2008, Robert Laird wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  .... it seems to me that if the EAA really wanted to do something

useful to it's newly minted LSA crowd, they'd petition the FAA so

that, once a kit plane was finished and gotten it's airworthiness and

registration, that they then give the builder the option to make it an

E-AB or an E-LSA (assuming it's within the LSA performance envelope).

...If you say you need an A&P to inspect one kind, then

why is a 16-hour class okay for the other?


	


It's hard to guess why the FAA does many things, but in this case I'd guess 

that they figured LSA's are slow, simple aircraft, unlikely to do much 

damage if they hit anything, with the basic structure originally, at least, 

made to some standard... and thus simple to inspect.



An E-AB, OTOH, can be ANYTHING... bigger, heavier, faster, the potential to 

do more damage, an possibly untested structure, so they hold it to a higher 

standard.  Note that the builder, at least, can get a repairman certificate 

(which, if I'm not mistaken, includes the inspection authority) for that 

particular aircraft without even taking the 16 hour class.



-Dana

--

  "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing 

left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -Antoine de 

Saint-Exup,ry

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: FAA Grants Extension...

I'm not suggesting 16-hr repairman courses for E-AB... you've

concluded the opposite of what I meant... One of the main advantages

of E-LSA is that you don't need an A&P, just a 16-hour course to do

the annual condition inspection.  A E-LSA can be bought and sold,

bought and sold, bought and sold, and the current owner can do the

annual inspection as long as he took the course and got his repairman

cert for that current plane.  What I'm saying is, if you had a kit

plane -- a Kolb for example -- that didn't have an approved S-LSA

"template", then you have no choice but to get it certified as an

E-AB... thus depriving the owner of selling it to someone who doesn't

want to pay the A&P each year, that has already taken the LSA

repairman course.  It would be an advantage of the original

builder/owner to be able to offer it up as an E-LSA rather than an

E-AB.

This isn't about E-ABs, this is about E-LSAs.  I'm suggesting that a

kit built E-AB that falls inside the LSA category should be able to be

considered an E-LSA if the builder wants it that way (but no going

back).  The way the FAA rules are now, you have to wonder why, say, a

RV-8 kit builder should be able to get it certified as an E-AB unless

Vans creates a factory-built RV-8 first.

Clear as mud?  :-/

  -- Robert

On Jan 24, 2008 7:50 PM, Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 05:32 PM 1/24/2008, Robert Laird wrote:

 >.... it seems to me that if the EAA really wanted to do something

 >useful to it's newly minted LSA crowd, they'd petition the FAA so

 >that, once a kit plane was finished and gotten it's airworthiness and

 >registration, that they then give the builder the option to make it an

 >E-AB or an E-LSA (assuming it's within the LSA performance envelope).

 >...If you say you need an A&P to inspect one kind, then

 >why is a 16-hour class okay for the other?

 It's hard to guess why the FAA does many things, but in this case I'd guess

 that they figured LSA's are slow, simple aircraft, unlikely to do much

 damage if they hit anything, with the basic structure originally, at least,

 made to some standard... and thus simple to inspect.

 An E-AB, OTOH, can be ANYTHING... bigger, heavier, faster, the potential to

 do more damage, an possibly untested structure, so they hold it to a higher

 standard.  Note that the builder, at least, can get a repairman certificate

 (which, if I'm not mistaken, includes the inspection authority) for that

 particular aircraft without even taking the 16 hour class.

 -Dana

 --

   "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing

 left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -Antoine de

 Saint-Exup,ry

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:22 am Post subject: FAA Grants Extension...

At 10:20 PM 1/24/2008, Robert Laird wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I'm not suggesting 16-hr repairman courses for E-AB...I'm suggesting that a

kit built E-AB that falls inside the LSA category should be able to be

considered an E-LSA if the builder wants it that way...


	


I wasn't suggesting that, either.  I was only saying that any E-AB, even if 

it falls within the LSA restrictions, may have a less ordinary construction 

that an approved LSA kit, and less (or no) factory support, so the FAA 

probably wants a more experienced mechanic than a 16 hour class graduate 

doing the inspections.



Note that the original builder can still get the repairman certificate 

without _any_ class.  That doesn't help subsequent owners, but most 

builders build for their own use, not resale.



-Dana



--

  If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: FAA Grants Extension...

I don't disagree with "...so the FAA probably wants a more experienced

mechanic than a 16 hour class graduate doing the inspections..."

Obviously, that's how the FAA feels about it.

I'm suggesting that a DAR or FAA inspector who grants, for example, an

E-LSA airworthiness certificate to a Kolb MkIII in 2007, should be

able to grant an E-LSA airworthiness certificate to a Kolb MkIII in

(post-Jan-31) 2008.  I don't see any difference or logical or

practical reason, except for a mandate on paper.

  -- Robert

On 1/25/08, Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 10:20 PM 1/24/2008, Robert Laird wrote:

 >

 >

 >I'm not suggesting 16-hr repairman courses for E-AB...I'm suggesting that a

 >kit built E-AB that falls inside the LSA category should be able to be

 >considered an E-LSA if the builder wants it that way...

 I wasn't suggesting that, either.  I was only saying that any E-AB, even if

 it falls within the LSA restrictions, may have a less ordinary construction

 that an approved LSA kit, and less (or no) factory support, so the FAA

 probably wants a more experienced mechanic than a 16 hour class graduate

 doing the inspections.

 Note that the original builder can still get the repairman certificate

 without _any_ class.  That doesn't help subsequent owners, but most

 builders build for their own use, not resale.

 -Dana

 --

   If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: FAA Grants Extension...

 	  rlaird wrote: 	
		  I don't disagree with "...so the FAA probably wants a more experienced

mechanic than a 16 hour class graduate doing the inspections..."

Obviously, that's how the FAA feels about it.



I'm suggesting that a DAR or FAA inspector who grants, for example, an

E-LSA airworthiness certificate to a Kolb MkIII in 2007, should be

able to grant an E-LSA airworthiness certificate to a Kolb MkIII in

(post-Jan-31) 2008.  I don't see any difference or logical or

practical reason, except for a mandate on paper.



  -- Robert

	




Personally, I don't see why FnAA went to the trouble of ELSA at all. I suspect the time-bombed one was simply a pretense to make it all look applicable to UL's and 2-place UL-like "aircraft" as stated in the preamble to the NPRM.



But now that we know it's not, I don't see any use whatsoever for the "approved kit" ELSA category - the cost and trouble to the manufacturer is the same if not more and really, SLSA was the real meat of LSA anyway.

And you can "downgrade" the certification to ELSA from SLSA as well - that's the only use for the category now that I can see...



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: FAA Grants Extension...

At 05:21 PM 1/25/2008, lucien wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Personally, I don't see why FnAA went to the trouble of ELSA at all. I 

suspect the time-bombed one was simply a pretense to make it all look 

applicable to UL's and 2-place UL-like "aircraft" as stated in the 

preamble to the NPRM.


	


Pretty much... though there may well have been a few types in the FAA (who 

really should get out more) who really believed that we'd all trade our 

ultralights for LSA's if they'd just shave a few hours off the Private 

requirements.



 	  Quote: 	
		  But now that we know it's not, I don't see any use whatsoever for the 

"approved kit" ELSA category...


	


A few manufacturers will find it useful.  Aircraft like Quicksilver (they 

have an "approved" kit yet?) that can be easily bolted together in a couple 

of days fit that category (saves shipping costs of an assembled plane from 

the factory), but that's about it.



Hopefully the FAA will realize that they've killed the ultralight training 

system.  When they see how few BFI's go and become CFI's, they'll have to 

do something.  What the industry needs is a new "training exemption" (or 

write it into the regs):  Let pilots with at least a Sport Pilot 

certificate (so they can already legally carry passengers), flying any LSA 

aircraft, who get some additional training (like the BFI program), provide 

primary instruction (for a fee, which ordinarily a SP couldn't do).  Not 

that informal instruction doesn't happen now anyway, but this would 

legitimize it for the small operators.



-Dana





--

  Mary had a little lamb.  The doctor was very surprised.

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject: FAA Grants Extension...

Dana Hague wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 At 05:32 PM 1/24/2008, Robert Laird wrote:

 

> .... it seems to me that if the EAA really wanted to do something

> useful to it's newly minted LSA crowd, they'd petition the FAA so

> that, once a kit plane was finished and gotten it's airworthiness and

> registration, that they then give the builder the option to make it an

> E-AB or an E-LSA (assuming it's within the LSA performance envelope).

> ...If you say you need an A&P to inspect one kind, then

> why is a 16-hour class okay for the other?

 

 It's hard to guess why the FAA does many things, but in this case I'd 

 guess that they figured LSA's are slow, simple aircraft, unlikely to do 

 much damage if they hit anything, with the basic structure originally, 

 at least, made to some standard... and thus simple to inspect.

 

 An E-AB, OTOH, can be ANYTHING... bigger, heavier, faster, the potential 

 to do more damage, an possibly untested structure, so they hold it to a 

 higher standard.  Note that the builder, at least, can get a repairman 

 certificate (which, if I'm not mistaken, includes the inspection 

 authority) for that particular aircraft without even taking the 16 hour 

 class.

 

 -Dana

 -- 

  "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing 

 left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -Antoine de 

 Saint-Exup,ry


	


Actually, the 'repairman's certificate' is *only* for inspection 

(condition inspection) authority. With E-AB, anyone can do maintenance, 

repairs, and modifications.



As far as the A&P requirement for E-AB, that's a logical (hard to 

believe, I know) response to the recognition that the original 

builder/repairman certificate holder may not always be around or 

available. Note that an IA ticket is not required like factory planes; 

just an A&P ticket. Remember, E-AB rules are decades old; created long 

before the LSA concept was even a gleam in some EAAer's eye.



Charlie

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