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jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: Regular Unleaded

I was tired of the spills and hassel every time I fueled my Firefly.  After I bought a 100 gal gasboy tanker for fueling my cross-country bird with regular unleaded, I decided to give regular unleaded a try in the Firefly to see if I could standardize on one fuel in my hangar.



Everybody I know uses Premium unleaded (91 octane) auto fuel in the Rotax 503 engines.  The owner of a Rotax Repair Station said he used premium unleaded fuel, but that regular unleaded (87 octane) meets the Rotax fuel grade specification.  



The Rotax manual says to use minimum 90 RON fuel.  But the RON method of octane measurement is not used in the United States. In the US, a different method entirely is used, called the CLC method. The number that results from this method is the average of the RON octane number and the MON octane number, so (RON + MON)/2 = CLC octane number. This is the number that you will find printed on a yellow label on gas pumps in the United States which indicate (R+M)/2.



91 RON octane is equivalent to 87 CLC octane, so the 87 CLC octane of regular unleaded exceeds the 90 RON specified by Rotax.



Late last fall and during a couple short flights this winter I used Regular unleaded with no problems.  Does anybody else out there use regular unleaded?  Ever had any problems?

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:49 am Post subject: Regular Unleaded

Jim



    Regular car gas is the same as Hi test...except for "marketing 

Additives" and  anti knock goodies(slows the burn rate) . Gotta be a 

very small percentage of the total.  . Herb



   do not archive



At 12:15 PM 1/24/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I was tired of the spills and hassel every time I fueled my 

Firefly.  After I bought a 100 gal gasboy tanker for fueling my 

cross-country bird with regular unleaded, I decided to give regular 

unleaded a try in the Firefly to see if I could standardize on one 

fuel in my hangar.



Everybody I know uses Premium unleaded (91 octane) auto fuel in the 

Rotax 503 engines.  The owner of a Rotax Repair Station said he used 

premium unleaded fuel, but that regular unleaded (87 octane) meets 

the Rotax fuel grade specification.



The Rotax manual says to use minimum 90 RON fuel.  But the RON 

method of octane measurement is not used in the United States. In 

the US, a different method entirely is used, called the CLC method. 

The number that results from this method is the average of the RON 

octane number and the MON octane number, so (RON + MON)/2 = CLC 

octane number. This is the number that you will find printed on a 

yellow label on gas pumps in the United States which indicate (R+M)/2.



91 RON octane is equivalent to 87 CLC octane, so the 87 CLC octane 

of regular unleaded exceeds the 90 RON specified by Rotax.



Late last fall and during a couple short flights this winter I used 

Regular unleaded with no problems.  Does anybody else out there use 

regular unleaded?  Ever had any problems?



--------

Jim

N. Idaho





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160256#160256

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: Regular Unleaded

> Late last fall and during a couple short flights this winter I used 

Regular unleaded with no problems.  Does anybody else out there use regular 

unleaded?  Ever had any problems?

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 --------

 Jim


	




Jim in Idaho



All the Rotax engines except the 912 (turbo), 912ULS four strokes, 618 and 

532 two strokes are authorized to operate on 87 octane auto fuel.  Ain't no 

more power in a gal of regular than there is in a gal of super hi-test.



Wish I could run 87 in my912ULS.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

bransom(at)ucdavis.edu
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: Regular Unleaded

Curious about this myself, and ignorant, so...

How do we know that 91 RON octane is equivalent to 87 CLC octane?



Looking at this strictly from the math point of view, if 

(RON+MON)/2=CLC,  MON could be very high and RON very low to produce a 

nice looking CLC.   i.e. CLC printed at US pumps of 87 could be RON of 

86 and MON of 88, unacceptable per Rotax spec.  Or, it could be RON 90, 

MON 84 giving CLC 87 and we're good. 

-Ben



herb wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Jim



    Regular car gas is the same as Hi test...except for "marketing 

 Additives" and  anti knock goodies(slows the burn rate) . Gotta be a 

 very small percentage of the total.  . Herb



   do not archive



 At 12:15 PM 1/24/2008, you wrote:

> 

>

> I was tired of the spills and hassel every time I fueled my Firefly.  

> After I bought a 100 gal gasboy tanker for fueling my cross-country 

> bird with regular unleaded, I decided to give regular unleaded a try 

> in the Firefly to see if I could standardize on one fuel in my hangar.

>

> Everybody I know uses Premium unleaded (91 octane) auto fuel in the 

> Rotax 503 engines.  The owner of a Rotax Repair Station said he used 

> premium unleaded fuel, but that regular unleaded (87 octane) meets 

> the Rotax fuel grade specification.

>

> The Rotax manual says to use minimum 90 RON fuel.  But the RON method 

> of octane measurement is not used in the United States. In the US, a 

> different method entirely is used, called the CLC method. The number 

> that results from this method is the average of the RON octane number 

> and the MON octane number, so (RON + MON)/2 = CLC octane number. This 

> is the number that you will find printed on a yellow label on gas 

> pumps in the United States which indicate (R+M)/2.

>

> 91 RON octane is equivalent to 87 CLC octane, so the 87 CLC octane of 

> regular unleaded exceeds the 90 RON specified by Rotax.

>

> Late last fall and during a couple short flights this winter I used 

> Regular unleaded with no problems.  Does anybody else out there use 

> regular unleaded?  Ever had any problems?

>

> --------

> Jim

> N. Idaho

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160256#160256

>

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Regular Unleaded

From  http://www.csgnetwork.com/octaneratecalc.html



Gasoline pumps typically post octane numbers as an average of two different values. Often you may see the octane rating quoted as (R+M)/2. One value is the research octane number (RON), which is determined with a test engine running at a low speed of 600 rpm. The other value is the motor octane number (MON), which is determined with a test engine running at a higher speed of 900 rpm. If, for example, a gasoline has an RON of 98 and a MON of 90, then the posted octane number would be the average of the two values or 94. 



Because of the different measurement RPMs, I would guess that the RON will always be higher than the MON.

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

tkrolfe(at)toast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: Regular Unleaded

jim wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Rotax.



 Late last fall and during a couple short flights this winter I used Regular unleaded with no problems.  Does anybody else out there use regular unleaded?  Ever had any problems?



 --------

 Jim

 N. Idaho



   


	


Jim,



Got 775 hr.s on my FireFly using only regular octane 87 with no 

ethanol.  Same engine, not tear down, just flying using good oil.  

Concerned about when the time comes and regular isn't available without 

ethanol where I'm at!



Terry - Firefly #95

bransom(at)ucdavis.edu
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: Regular Unleaded

Do you have specific concerns wrt ethanol in a 2-stroke?

I've been using 91 octane mogas, sometimes with ethanol.  I've not been 

aware of any problems other than if gas gets older than a couple months 

the engine is hard to start and I don't trust it.  I've assumed gas goes 

stale mostly because of other ingredients, not ethanol.

-Ben

TK wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 jim wrote:

> Rotax.

>

> Late last fall and during a couple short flights this winter I used 

> Regular unleaded with no problems.  Does anybody else out there use 

> regular unleaded?  Ever had any problems?

>

> --------

> Jim

> N. Idaho

>

>   

 Jim,

 Got 775 hr.s on my FireFly using only regular octane 87 with no 

 ethanol.  Same engine, not tear down, just flying using good oil.  

 Concerned about when the time comes and regular isn't available 

 without ethanol where I'm at!

 Terry - Firefly #95

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: Regular Unleaded

At 06:57 PM 1/24/2008, Ben Ransom wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Do you have specific concerns wrt ethanol in a 2-stroke?

I've been using 91 octane mogas, sometimes with ethanol.  I've not been 

aware of any problems other than if gas gets older than a couple months 

the engine is hard to start and I don't trust it.  I've assumed gas goes 

stale mostly because of other ingredients, not ethanol.


	


There are concerns about ethanol's compatibility with rubber parts such as 

seals, fuel pumps, and carburetor parts.



Gas goes stale because some of the more volatile components evaporate 

out.  That's one reason I use avgas in my Cuyuna (that and concerns about 

alcohol); avgas is much better controlled as to vapor pressure so it stores 

much better... I believe it's supposed to remain good for 2 years.



-Dana

--

  The gene pool has no lifeguard.

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:15 pm Post subject: Regular Unleaded

In a message dated 1/24/2008 6:35:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  tkrolfe(at)toast.net writes:

   	  Quote: 	
		     Got 775 hr.s on my FireFly 

    

    

   Hi Terry,

    

   Wow!  I know you fly a lot, but that is a lot of hours.  When    did you start flying that FireFly?  I also use regular grade fuel per the    Rotax 447 operators manual.  Also, in NJ, all automobile pump gas is    mandated to contain up to 10% ethanol.  So far I haven't had any    problems using it and it does contain ethanol.

    

   One other item about fuel for 2-strokes.  Most 2-cycle engine    manufacturers (leaf blowers and such) caution/recommend against using    oil/mixed fuel after it has sit for a couple of weeks.  Well, I    found this to be impractical to do.  I mean, what do you do with unused    mixed fuel?  You have to PAY to have it disposed of, or maybe you could    use it in your OLD car (not my new one).  Anyway, I disregarded    the caution and used the old fuel.  Guess what, in 13 years of flying,    nary a problem cropped up.  In fact, one buddy went on vacation for    three months, and when he returned, took his Kolb out for a flight with old    gas and no problem.  Now, I am not recommending anyone follow    our practice, but we have had trouble free performance.  So Far    

    

   Bill    Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar

   Measly 480 hrs since 94

Audubon NJ

Do Not    Archive

	




Who's never won?  Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

  [quote][b]

tkrolfe(at)toast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: Regular Unleaded

Ben Ransom wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Do you have specific concerns wrt ethanol in a 2-stroke?

 I've been using 91 octane mogas, sometimes with ethanol.  I've not 

 been aware of any problems other than if gas gets older than a couple 

 months the engine is hard to start and I don't trust it.  I've assumed 

 gas goes stale mostly because of other ingredients, not ethanol.

 -Ben



 TK wrote:


	


Ben, Bill,



I am fortunate to still be able to get 87 octane without ethanol.  As 

mentioned, the concern is with the effect ethanol has on seals and pump 

and carburetor parts.  Also for what I believe it will do to my EGT's.  

I will probably have to richen up my carb setting when I'm forced to use 

the ethanol.  I have my 447 tuned to get a two gallon to an hour burn 

rate and hate to have to change.



As far as old gas!  I usually don't have gas around too long, try to fly 

as much as possible.  Have used gas that was 2 to 3 months old without 

any noticeable problem or change of readings.  Can't afford to through 

out liquid gold with very expensive mixing oil in it. !!!!



Looking for some decent flying weather next week.  Cold & windy here 

right now,



Terry -  FireFly #95

beauford173(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:45 am Post subject: Regular Unleaded

Terry:

You are getting about 50% better fuel burn out of your 447 than 

I have managed.... Mine burns slightly over three gal/hr with the stock

jets and needle...  What jetting are you running and what RPM do you

cruise yours at...?



Envious beauford

FF076

Brandon, FL 



-------------------------

 I have my 447 tuned to get a two gallon to an hour burn 

rate and hate to have to change.

Terry -  FireFly #95

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: Regular Unleaded

Mine burns slightly over three gal/hr with the stock

 	  Quote: 	
		   jets and needle...


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Envious beauford


	




Beauford T:



I consistantly burned 3.5 to 3.75 gph in my old point ign 447 turning 5800 

rpm on long cross country flights.



Around the patch, about half that.



john h

mkIII - Heading to Woodville, FL, and parts south, like Panacea to pick me 

up a bushel of oysters.    Life is good.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

ulflyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: Regular Unleaded

The topic of stale fuel always proves to have a lot of differing 

opinions.  Before the reformulated ethanol gasoline, when I used old 

stale premix - I could tell it.  The engine started harder, ran 

rougher and didn't appear to have quite the same zip.  I started 

using fuel stabilizer additive adding it to the fuel right after it 

was purchased.  Since doing that I can't say I've noticed any major 

noticeable concern.  If I have large amount of stale fuel in my tank 

I will pump some out and add more fresh fuel.  When refueling I will 

add about 1/5-1/4 of stale fuel to a can of new fuel.  This seems to 

work well for me and gets rid of stale fuel.  Note, using the 

stabilizer additive made a lot of difference to me.  Even if the 

premix is a month old, it runs OK, but I normally add some fresh to 

it.  I haven't noticed any significant carboning or sticking of the 

rings doing this.  Haven't flown much since the reformulated gas with 

ethanol so it may be completely different.

jerb



At 10:13 PM 1/24/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  In a message dated 1/24/2008 6:35:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 

tkrolfe(at)toast.net writes:

Got 775 hr.s on my FireFly

Hi Terry,



Wow!  I know you fly a lot, but that is a lot of hours.  When did 

you start flying that FireFly?  I also use regular grade fuel per 

the Rotax 447 operators manual.  Also, in NJ, all automobile pump 

gas is mandated to contain up to 10% ethanol.  So far I haven't had 

any problems using it and it does contain ethanol.



One other item about fuel for 2-strokes.  Most 2-cycle engine 

manufacturers (leaf blowers and such) caution/recommend against 

using oil/mixed fuel after it has sit for a couple of weeks.  Well, 

I found this to be impractical to do.  I mean, what do you do with 

unused mixed fuel?  You have to PAY to have it disposed of, or maybe 

you could use it in your OLD car (not my new one).  Anyway, I 

disregarded the caution and used the old fuel.  Guess what, in 13 

years of flying, nary a problem cropped up.  In fact, one buddy went 

on vacation for three months, and when he returned, took his Kolb 

out for a flight with old gas and no problem.  Now, I am not 

recommending anyone follow our practice, but we have had trouble 

free performance.  So Far 



Bill Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar

Measly 480 hrs since 94

Audubon NJ

Do Not Archive



----------

Who's never won? 

<http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002548>Biggest 

Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: Regular Unleaded

Hey All, Beauford and Terry..



    Looking at my Firefly log..Best fuel burn was 2 gal hr.. had a 

tail wind going down and  2.55 gal hr coming back.. Seem to average 

2.75 or there bouts..Stock carb and jets.. The worst that I see is 3.05..



   I noticed , flying with a buddy who has a Firefly, that he was 

flying with the tail somewhat lower than I... Early on, I found that 

the Fly has a "step" and with some finess and careful 

attention,(don't have much of either at 64! )   I could keep it 

there...No doubt the full enclosure helps .. Bit of a cruise setting 

on my IVO too.. 62 inch two blade.. When flying with others... tend 

to cruise at abt 5200 and by myself...57 to 5800..  Herb



At 09:42 AM 1/25/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Terry:

You are getting about 50% better fuel burn out of your 447 than

I have managed.... Mine burns slightly over three gal/hr with the stock

jets and needle...  What jetting are you running and what RPM do you

cruise yours at...?



Envious beauford

FF076

Brandon, FL



-------------------------

  I have my 447 tuned to get a two gallon to an hour burn

rate and hate to have to change.

Terry -  FireFly #95

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1490
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: Regular Unleaded

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 As far as old gas!  I usually don't have gas around too long, try to fly 

 as much as possible.  Have used gas that was 2 to 3 months old without any 

 noticeable problem or change of readings.  Can't afford to through out 

 liquid gold with very expensive mixing oil in it. !!!!


	


You should give some consideration to adding 2 oz of "Sta Bil"  per 5 

gallons of gas. It does work and has not harmed anything that I have ever 

used it in. I use it in lawn mowers, tractors, rototillers and Rotax. The 

difference in the smell of gas with Sta bil and without is very noticeable. 

I used to use my "old" gas from the plane in my lawn mowers or the car. The 

last time I used some untreated gas that had been setting in the plane for a 

too long time in the tractor, I had to add twice as much fresh gas just to 

get it to pull its self along. Sta bil does work and do what it says.



Larry C

_________________
do not archive

bransom(at)ucdavis.edu
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: Regular Unleaded

Sounds a bit odd to me that you're getting such a wide ranging fuel burn 

rate Herb.  It will hinge on things such as prop load, rpm, jetting, but 

wind of course is irrelevant.  Enclosure, or tail high or low would be a 

minor influence on prop load, so indirectly influence GPH.

 I've perhaps underestimated the idea as Terry suggests that ethanol 

could be contributing to poorer fuel rate or a need to jet richer.  I 

know ethanol has less power than gasoline, but do we know that it makes 

an engine run hotter?

-Ben

herb wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Hey All, Beauford and Terry..

    Looking at my Firefly log..Best fuel burn was 2 gal hr.. had a tail 

 wind going down and  2.55 gal hr coming back.. Seem to average 2.75 or 

 there bouts..Stock carb and jets.. The worst that I see is 3.05..

   I noticed , flying with a buddy who has a Firefly, that he was 

 flying with the tail somewhat lower than I... Early on, I found that 

 the Fly has a "step" and with some finess and careful attention,(don't 

 have much of either at 64! )   I could keep it there...No doubt the 

 full enclosure helps .. Bit of a cruise setting on my IVO too.. 62 

 inch two blade.. When flying with others... tend to cruise at abt 5200 

 and by myself...57 to 5800..  Herb

 At 09:42 AM 1/25/2008, you wrote:

> 

>

> Terry:

> You are getting about 50% better fuel burn out of your 447 than

> I have managed.... Mine burns slightly over three gal/hr with the stock

> jets and needle...  What jetting are you running and what RPM do you

> cruise yours at...?

>

> Envious beauford

> FF076

> Brandon, FL

>

> -------------------------

>  I have my 447 tuned to get a two gallon to an hour burn

> rate and hate to have to change.

> Terry -  FireFly #95

tkrolfe(at)toast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:54 am Post subject: Regular Unleaded

beauford T wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Terry:

 You are getting about 50% better fuel burn out of your 447 than 

 I have managed.... Mine burns slightly over three gal/hr with the stock

 jets and needle...  What jetting are you running and what RPM do you

 cruise yours at...?



 Envious beauford

 FF076

 Brandon, FL 



 -------------------------

  I have my 447 tuned to get a two gallon to an hour burn 

 rate and hate to have to change.

 Terry -  FireFly #95

   

beauford T,
	




I use the 11G2 needle in the second notch from the bottom, standard 

jets.  I typically cruise at 5,000 to 5,200 rpm.  Beautiful Amish 

country side to see around here and I'm in no rush taking in the 

scenery.  I swing a Tennessee two blade wood prop which was stock for 

the FireFly from the Old Kolb Co.



Hope this helps,



Terry -  FireFly #95

tkrolfe(at)toast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: Regular Unleaded

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.com (WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.com) wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		              In a message dated 1/24/2008 6:35:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tkrolfe(at)toast.net (tkrolfe(at)toast.net) writes:

       	  Quote: 	
		       Got 775 hr.s on my FireFly 

      

      

     Hi Terry,

      

     Wow!  I know you fly a lot, but that is a lot of hours.  When did you start flying that FireFly?  I also use regular grade fuel per the Rotax 447 operators manual.  Also, in NJ, all automobile pump gas is mandated to contain up to 10% ethanol.  So far I haven't had any problems using it and it does contain ethanol.

   	
   

   	
 

 Bill,  

 

 Started flying Aug. 99 .  Been trying to make up for lost years!!!  I'm a piker compared to my flying buddy, Willie.  He has put almost 1,000 on his FireStar in 3 1/2 years!  You met him at Homer's. He is the one with the orange wings and tail and is known as the "Candy Man".

 

 Terry -  Firefly #95

    [quote][b]

beauford173(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: Regular Unleaded

Terry:

Will give the 11G2 a try and see what it does to the plug color, temps and 

fuel

burn... am running a 66" IVO 2-blade.  I doubt I'll successfully run mine at 

as low a cruise

RPM as you are able to...  weight considerations, y'know... and those VG's 

are killin' me...



Thankee, sir.

saggy-bellied beauford

FF076

Do not archive



---

biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: Regular Unleaded

Since the subject has come up, maybe y'all can help an old boater with a 

question.  A few months ago the injectors on my 50 hp 2 stroke outboard 

fouled and speed was reduced.  In the local NAPA store, I saw - among 

other remedies - a stock of SeaFoam.  (sorry, gotta do this)  Thinking 

about the foofahrah on the List about that stuff, but remembering the 

good things said, I grinned, bought a can and added it to the 19 gal 

boat tank.  Gas was fresh.

After about ½ hour, instead of speeding up, all of a sudden the engine 

bogged right down and quit.  Hadta come back in on the kicker motor.  I 

*assume* the seafoam broke some gunk loose that worsened the restricted 

injectors.

My question - will that stuff act as a stabilizer, or should I pour the 

gas into my VW and put fresh gas with Sta-Bil in the boat tank ??  Will 

it continue to dissolve the deposits in the injectors ??  Will it hurt 

the 8 hp 4 stroke kicker motor ??  Haven't had time to get the boat to a 

shop, so it's gonna sit there for the winter.                  Lar.

P.S.     Kolb related in that the answers may help a 2 stroke Kolb-er.

Larry Cottrell wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com>

>

> As far as old gas!  I usually don't have gas around too long, try to 

> fly as much as possible.  Have used gas that was 2 to 3 months old 

> without any noticeable problem or change of readings.  Can't afford 

> to through out liquid gold with very expensive mixing oil in it. !!!!

 You should give some consideration to adding 2 oz of "Sta Bil"  per 5 

 gallons of gas. It does work and has not harmed anything that I have 

 ever used it in. I use it in lawn mowers, tractors, rototillers and 

 Rotax. The difference in the smell of gas with Sta bil and without is 

 very noticeable. I used to use my "old" gas from the plane in my lawn 

 mowers or the car. The last time I used some untreated gas that had 

 been setting in the plane for a too long time in the tractor, I had to 

 add twice as much fresh gas just to get it to pull its self along. Sta 

 bil does work and do what it says.

 Larry C

-- 

Larry Bourne

Santa Fe, NM

Building Kolb Mk III

"Vamoose"

www.gogittum.com

www.gogittum.com/blog

_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

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