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mountain4don
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 29
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 Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:48 am Post subject: ethanol in auto gas |
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I don't believe I would place much credibility in this newspaper article about alcohol in auto fuel. The writer is much prejudiced toward his oil company's associations with alcohol suppliers. Our Omaha EAA chapter recently toured through an aircraft engine re-builder that was working on crop duster Lycoming IO-540's that had more than 3000 hours on them from Brazil, South America. And all of those hours were flown with 100% alcohol. We were told they were the cleanest and showing the least wear of any engines they had seen with that many hours on them. Also its common in the United States for oval track car races to run pure alcohol. Alcohol runs cooler than gasoline, so it has advantages in both racing engines and aircraft engines that fly in hot weather. And there are several demonstration airplanes flying in this country on pure alcohol. The 10% alcohol won't hurt your aircraft engine. But you just need to be aware of and alcohol proof your system. Carburetor seals, gaskets and floats need to be alcohol proof. Fuel lines and gas tank coatings need to be alcohol proof. Carburetor jets need to have the adjustment range to handle a correct mixture. Water needs to be drained out of the system regularly. And vapor pressure needs to be considered when flying in high altitudes or hot days.
And for the writer's information about burning "in excess of one gallon of fossil fuel for each gallon of alcohol produced" is a bunch of bunk. It would be foolish to think that we would in effect for each gallon of alcohol we bought we would also be paying for one gallon of fossil fuel, along with the costs of production, paying for the construction of the alcohol plant, transportation, production of the grains to feed the plant, and etc. It sounds like someone is investing $5 for every $1 in product that is coming out of the plant. I doubt it.
Don Mountain
Ron DeWees <rdewees(at)mindspring.com> wrote:[quote] Sad but informative. Those of us using auto fuel in our airplane motors now have to consider many additional problems that alcohol causes and it's not even good for cars! This was published today in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution and written by the CEO of a petroleum distributor in Atlanta. Who is pushing ethanol? It's apparently not petroleum companies.
Ron
[quote]
Controversial ethanol being forced on us
By Tex Pitfield
For the Journal-Constitution
Published on: 01/28/08 In the next month or so, you will possibly notice that when you buy gasoline for your vehicle, the dispenser will be freshly labeled "may contain ethanol."
In fact, over the next several months, the majority of gasoline in the greater Atlanta area and in time the entire state will contain approximately 10 percent ethanol. This is being introduced by Georgia Department of Agriculture as a "voluntary" measure. While voluntary to the petroleum companies, it is far from "voluntary" for the general consumer.
Inevitably, by spring, all gas you buy will be ethanol-bearing. You will have no choice, simply because the big oil companies that distribute the fuel for all the major brands will be mixing ethanol into their gasoline. Ethanol producers receive a 51-cent per gallon federal subsidy. Just remember that the subsidy comes out of your pocket.
You may think ethanol is a good thing and you are helping the nation wean itself off dependency on foreign oil. You could not be more mistaken.
To make 1 gallon of corn-based ethanol, you need in excess of a gallon of fossil fuel by some estimates. Other forms of ethanol, such as from wood chips and grass, require even more fossil fuel. Sugar beets and sugar cane ethanol require slightly less fuel.
That does not apparently include the cost of the fuel to transport the finished product by rail or truck. Unlike gasoline, ethanol cannot be transported by pipeline since it picks up and retains water, rendering it unusable.
Now here is where it gets really interesting. Ethanol requires in excess of 3 gallons of water to be produced. Refining crude oil to make gasoline takes maybe a gallon of water.
In a time when the entire country for the most part is starving for water, we are wasting it to make an alternative fuel? Again, this logic has been unattainable.
And if there were not enough black marks regarding ethanol already, we are now realizing that ethanol poses a disaster for the already sensitive environment. Ethanol fuel produces far more harmful fumes and pollutants, namely nitrous oxides, than regular fossil fuel. So the air we breathe gets worse, all in the effort to reduce dependency on foreign oil.
You will also see a number of reports from environmental agencies, most in Europe and countries more aware of these issues than the United States, stating that the environmental impact of ethanol far outweighs any benefit it might possibly offer: loss of water, more pollutants onto the farm land and the devastation of forest for corn production.
And if that was not enough, we in the transportation business have witnessed supply interruptions and logistical backlogs. For an infrastructure that is quickly becoming reliant on a questionable entity, there are a grave number of concerns that together create a potential calamity.
The mileage in your car will suffer from ethanol usage, although that number is debated. A 10 percent mixture of ethanol and 90 percent gasoline is reported to reduce a vehicle's mileage by at least 5 percent, perhaps 10 percent or more. Your car will not run as well.
All these shortfalls are well known by the federal and state government, but lobbyists and various corporate entities who always seem to act in our best interests (read: adjustable mortgage rates, artificially low interest rates etc.) have deemed that this is something we need.
Regrettably, once again, there appears to be little thought to the long-term results, only the short-term questionable gain, and again, it is likely that our elected officials are oblivious to the ramifications that their cash-driven, poorly thought out decisions will result in in the very near future.
Fossil fuel as an energy source will not be going away in the foreseeable future, of that we can be certain.
Realize that we the fuel carriers, the distributors, and many others do not want nor support ethanol. It makes our cost of doing business increase, is difficult to handle and the changeover is expensive. And we do not make more money with it.
I addressed these very same issues recently with Tommy Irvin, commissioner of the Georgia Department of Agriculture. Again, it is a "voluntary change," I was told.
And I mentioned to him that there are numerous alternative energy systems on the design table and already in production: electric cars, hydrogen fuel cells, [quote][b]
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lrm(at)skyhawg.com
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: ethanol in auto gas |
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The one issue that is a major concern is the effect alcohol has on fiberglass fuel tanks. Several aircraft I know of use fiberglass tanks, i.e., RAF-2000s and both of mine. Probably a bunch more I don't know about. Alcohol will soften and devolve the resin. I used Isophthalic resin which is chemical resistant, gas does not phase it, but alcohol will. I once put 1 pint of dry gas in a tank and the gas immediately turned milky. I open the tank and found the inner layer of the resin was soft. That is the main reason I no longer make and sell fiberglass tanks. And, that's a fact. LRM skyhawg.com
[quote] ---
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Jaybannist(at)cs.com
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:13 am Post subject: ethanol in auto gas |
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In other words, it won't hurt your engine, just nearly EVERYTHING else in the fuel system. I'm really relieved! ;-D
Jay in Dallas
Don Mountain <mountain4don(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
... The 10% alcohol won't hurt your aircraft engine. But you just need to be aware of and alcohol proof your system. Carburetor
| Quote: | seals, gaskets and floats need to be alcohol proof. Fuel lines and gas tank coatings need to be alcohol proof. Carburetor jets need to have the adjustment range to handle a correct mixture. Water needs to be drained out of the system regularly. And vapor pressure needs to be considered when flying in high altitudes or hot days.
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psm(at)att.net
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: ethanol in auto gas |
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Hi Don,
I'm afraid the truth of the alcohol in airplane fuel question lies
somewhere between your position and the one expressed in the
article. I am, indeed, prejudiced by my income from petroleum, but I
am also reasonably well informed by my years following that
industry. I don't feel threatened by alcohol, but I do believe it is
a poor choice for airplane fuel.
You did a good job of covering the problems of carburetor and other
fuel system damage from alcohol. I don't know how to make these
elements alcohol proof, but I would like to. If you have any
specific information on gaskets, fuel lines, and other materials that
resist the alcohol I would love to hear it.
It does take a considerable amount of energy to produce alcohol. I
don't know about the statement that it takes more petroleum fuel than
the alcohol produced, but your point about costs for alcohol is a
good one. I think the energy needed to process the farmer's fields
and harvest and transport the corn must be combined with the energy
needed to boil the fermented mash to separate the alcohol from the
other materials. If all of this energy came from petroleum then it
might indeed take more than a gallon of petro-fuel to produce a
gallon of alcohol, but there are many other energy sources that could
be used for the distillation process.
I am concerned about your comment regarding draining water from the
fuel regularly. The alcohol actually dissolves water in the liquid,
so draining it only gets some of the water out of the fuel. I think
there will still be a considerable amount of water going through the
engine even if there is no apparent water in the fuel tanks.
The part that pilots really need to know is that alcohol has
considerably less energy per gallon than gasoline. (Also, gasoline
has a similar reduction in energy per gallon compared to diesel
fuel.) That means the range of your plane will be reduced if you use
alcohol. I don't care much about the cost implications of this
reduction, but it could be a serious safety issue if you fly with
minimum fuel margins and don't factor in the need for additional
gallons of fuel when it contains alcohol. I'm not sure, but I
suspect the variable amount of water in alcohol based fuels could
also make a considerable reduction in airplane range.
I am troubled by the government forcing alcohol into virtually all
gasoline. At the same time the federal government also imposes a
large import duty on alcohol. I think this is a misguided attempt to
create energy independence for the USA. It also means converting
large food production capacities to fuel production which might help
with the fuel situation but lead to starvation for lower income people.
Paul
XL fuselage
do not archive
At 06:40 AM 1/29/2008, you wrote:
| Quote: | I don't believe I would place much credibility in this newspaper
article about alcohol in auto fuel. The writer is much prejudiced
toward his oil company's associations with alcohol suppliers. Our
Omaha EAA chapter recently toured through an aircraft engine
re-builder that was working on crop duster Lycoming IO-540's that
had more than 3000 hours on them from Brazil, South America. And
all of those hours were flown with 100% alcohol. We were told they
were the cleanest and showing the least wear of any engines they had
seen with that many hours on them. Also its common in the United
States for oval track car races to run pure alcohol. Alcohol runs
cooler than gasoline, so it has advantages in both racing engines
and aircraft engines that fly in hot weather. And there are several
demonstration airplanes flying in this country on pure alcohol. The
10% alcohol won't hurt your aircraft engine. But you just need to
be aware of and alcohol proof your system. Carburetor seals,
gaskets and floats need to be alcohol proof. Fuel lines and gas
tank coatings need to be alcohol proof. Carburetor jets need to
have the adjustment range to handle a correct mixture. Water needs
to be drained out of the system regularly. And vapor pressure needs
to be considered when flying in high altitudes or hot days.
|
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bryanmmartin
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:20 am Post subject: ethanol in auto gas |
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Another problem that I see is that a little bit of water in the
gasohol will be held in suspension in the fuel by the alcohol but a
large amount of water will settle out to the bottom of the tank,
drawing most of the alcohol with it. This, in fact is how you test
for alcohol in gasoline. Gasohol is actually a relatively low octane
gasoline with alcohol added. The alcohol increases the octane of the
mixture to its rated value. Now you have a mixture of alcohol and
water at the bottom of the tank that probably won't burn too well and
gasoline floating on top with a significantly reduced octane rating.
Now when you sump the tank, you'll be draining out most of the alcohol
along with the water, leaving behind the low octane gasoline. For an
automobile, this isn't much of a problem since autos produced today
generally have knock sensors and computer controlled ignition systems
that can compensate for the lower octane fuel. Most aircraft engines
don't have this ability and burning a lower octane fuel than the
engine requires can rapidly destroy the engine.
If the fuel system and engine is designed for it, burning straight
alcohol or E85 should not be a problem. This fuel should be relatively
insensitive to a small amount of water in the mix. Mixing small
amounts of alcohol with gasoline is a bad idea.
Alcohol is a pretty good motor fuel by itself if the engine is
designed to run on it. Gasoline is also a good motor fuel. Mixing
alcohol with gasoline produces a fuel with more problems than
advantages. We need to get the politicians out of the loop and leave
fuel system and engine design to people who actually know what they're
doing.
| Quote: |
Hi Don,
...
I am concerned about your comment regarding draining water from the
fuel regularly. The alcohol actually dissolves water in the liquid,
so draining it only gets some of the water out of the fuel. I think
there will still be a considerable amount of water going through the
engine even if there is no apparent water in the fuel tanks.
...
At 06:40 AM 1/29/2008, you wrote:
> I don't believe I would place much credibility in this newspaper
> article about alcohol in auto fuel. The writer is much prejudiced
> toward his oil company's associations with alcohol suppliers. Our
> Omaha EAA chapter recently toured through an aircraft engine re-
> builder that was working on crop duster Lycoming IO-540's that had
> more than 3000 hours on them from Brazil, South America. And all
> of those hours were flown with 100% alcohol. We were told they
> were the cleanest and showing the least wear of any engines they
> had seen with that many hours on them. Also its common in the
> United States for oval track car races to run pure alcohol.
> Alcohol runs cooler than gasoline, so it has advantages in both
> racing engines and aircraft engines that fly in hot weather. And
> there are several demonstration airplanes flying in this country on
> pure alcohol. The 10% alcohol won't hurt your aircraft engine.
> But you just need to be aware of and alcohol proof your system.
> Carburetor seals, gaskets and floats need to be alcohol proof.
> Fuel lines and gas tank coatings need to be alcohol proof.
> Carburetor jets need to have the adjustment range to handle a
> correct mixture. Water needs to be drained out of the system
> regularly. And vapor pressure needs to be considered when flying
> in high altitudes or hot days.
|
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Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive. |
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backstagelive(at)gmail.co
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:11 am Post subject: ethanol in auto gas |
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If anyone wants some detailed information on what ethanol will do to a fuel
system, and what ethanol is doing to the planet, rather than print it here,
E-mail me off list and I will send you some information.
In Wisconsin, ethanol has done over a million dollars worth of damage to
cars in the Milwaukee area due to plugged up fuel injectors. Boats in
Minnesota where ethanol is manditory have their fiberglass fuel tanks
disolve over time leaking fuel into the keel. The Oshkosh ethanol plant has
been sited for excess polution from the ethanol plant and fined. Ethanol
producers can't say that their produce burned clean like they use to. It
doesn't. Ethanol produces aldyhides when it burns and it turns out their
cancerous! The largest saturation of aldyhides happends to be in Brazil!
Unfortunately, we were all lied to by the corn lobby and our government has
let the genie out of the bottle! EAA is fighting hard to stop the ethanol
mandates. One of the Zenith competitors decided to take a big chunk of money
from the ethanol people and design a "green" airplane, and slapped EAA right
in the face with it at the last airshow.
Here in Wisconsin, the cost of milk has doubled, most foods at the grocery
store have increased dramaticly, even Budweiser is having trouble finding
hopps because of the corn craze. Ethanol in Wisconsin is hurting the poor
who can't afford the price increases. Has anyone noticed our politicians are
not mentioning corn ethanol when talking about renewable resources? Even
National Geographic didn't have much good to say about corn ethanol.
In Wisconsin, our legislative leaders voted down the law to make ethanol
manditory, but I'm sure it will come up again. The corn lobby is strong. But
here in Wisconsin, the pumps must be marked if ethanol is sold. We can still
pick our gas stations. They tried to remove that law but the EAA stepped in
and said no.
By the way, Yamaha snowmobiles have found a way to use ethanol. If you know
there is ethanol in the fuel, you can change a wire under the engine cover
and the engine will run fine! It fools the little computer and causes the
engine to run full rich to keep it cool! How about that!
Stay away from this stuff.
Joe
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MaxNr(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:42 am Post subject: ethanol in auto gas |
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Make an ethanol tester. Find a used olive jar. One of those skinny ones with a screw on cap. Put a mark about one inch from the bottom. Fill to the mark with water. Fill the rest with the fuel to be tested, screw cap on and shake. If the "water line" rises, it means that alcohol has combined with the water and the presence of alcohol is confirmed. You can also buy the same tester professionally made by Peterson Aviation ( www.autofuelstc.com ) for $15.00.
Ethanol has no place in an airplane for all the reasons stated. Also ethanol is much more likely to vapor lock at altitudes above those altitudes used by ag planes. Stay with 100LL if in doubt and put the gas that fails the test into your pick up truck.
Bob 601XL
**************
Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002548) [quote][b]
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