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ethanol in autogas

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jpspencer(at)cableone.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:52 am Post subject: ethanol in autogas

Anybody know how the 912s likes autofuel with ethanol in  it? For all the info that Rotax sends out on their engines I don't remember  seeing anything on this subject from them. Anyody got a link or  info?

  

 Thx Joe

  

 Sad but informative.  Those of us using auto fuel in  our airplane motors 

now have to consider many additional problems that  alcohol causes and 

it's not even good for cars! This was published today in  the Atlanta 

Journal-Constitution and written by the CEO of a petroleum  distributor 

in Atlanta. Who is pushing ethanol? It's apparently not  petroleum companies.

Ron

   [quote][b]

zenith601xl(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:44 am Post subject: ethanol in autogas

I recall reading a year ago that Rotax prohibits the use of ethanol bearing fuel.  Ethanol goes back to the 80's it when was called gasohol and car many car manufacturers warned against using it because of deterioration of engine seals and rubber parts.

       Ethanol results in poorer fuel consumption according to several automotive publications tests.  For us that means reduced range and endurance since larger fuel tanks and greater weight aren't a very good choice for us.  Those same reports also mention the cost of ethanol production being higher than gasoline.  It is only profitable because of Federal subsidies.  The car manufacturers also receive Federal subsidies for producing alternate fuel vehicles and ethanol is the only immediately available alternate.  Farmers enjoy higher corn prices as well.  The consumer pays for all of the subsidies as well as higher prices for corn and beef which is fed with more expensive corn.

       The government is taking care of us again.

 Dennis

  

 



 

 On Jan 29, 2008 9:44 AM, Joe Spencer <jpspencer(at)cableone.net (jpspencer(at)cableone.net)> wrote:

 [quote]  Anybody know how the 912s likes autofuel with ethanol in it? For all the info that Rotax sends out on their engines I don't remember seeing anything on this subject from them. Anyody got a link or info?

   

 Thx Joe

  

 Sad but informative.  Those of us using auto fuel in our airplane motors 

now have to consider many additional problems that alcohol causes and 

it's not even good for cars! This was published today in the Atlanta 

 Journal-Constitution and written by the CEO of a petroleum distributor 

in Atlanta. Who is pushing ethanol? It's apparently not petroleum companies.

Ron

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: Re: ethanol and other stuff in autogas

The problem with autogas is that you never really know what is in it. We had a local problem that lasted for over a year.



It all started when almost everyone that drove a GMC or Chevy truck, Tahoe or Suburban had their fuel pump fail. And then fail again. And again. Since almost all of these were happening on 2 model years and they were current model years they were under warranty and finally GM had the dealerships start sending in the pumps. They found that some non-metal piece was failing but couldn't figure out why because it was only happening in this area. 



Then they started having samples of the fuel in the failed trucks sent in to be tested. What they found was that the chemistry on the gas was, to quote a guy at the Chevy dealer I know, "Really F*&^ed up."



See, there is one refinery here and virtually all fuel here comes from that one refinery. It doesn't matter if it is Connoco, Exxon or no name. 



GM threatened to sue for damages the refinery wrote a check out of court and fixed the problem. 



I was told by a refinery engineer that the reports showed that if this part was submerged in this fuel mix for more than 2 months it would fail 95% of the time. If it was in there for 5 months the failure rate approached 100%.



The moral of this story is there are reasons that 100LL avgas costs what it does.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

dougsnash(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:23 am Post subject: ethanol in autogas

Actually, if I remember correctly, Rotax allows up to

5% Ethanol.  Of course, that doesn't help us much

considering that most Ethanol laced fuels are at least

10% in North America.



Doug MacDonald

NW Ontario, Canada

CH-701 Scratch Builder

--- Dennis Shoup <zenith601xl(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		        I recall reading a year ago that Rotax

 prohibits the use of ethanol

 bearing fuel.  Ethanol goes back to the 80's it when

 was called gasohol and

 car many car manufacturers warned against using it

 because of deterioration

 of engine seals and rubber parts.

      Ethanol results in poorer fuel consumption

 according to several

 automotive publications tests.  For us that means

 reduced range and

 endurance since larger fuel tanks and greater weight

 aren't a very good

 choice for us.  Those same reports also mention the

 cost of ethanol

 production being higher than gasoline.  It is only

 profitable because of

 Federal subsidies.  The car manufacturers also

 receive Federal subsidies for

 producing alternate fuel vehicles and ethanol is the

 only immediately

 available alternate.  Farmers enjoy higher corn

 prices as well.  The

 consumer pays for all of the subsidies as well as

 higher prices for corn and

 beef which is fed with more expensive corn.

      The government is taking care of us again.

 Dennis

 

 

 

 

 On Jan 29, 2008 9:44 AM, Joe Spencer

 <jpspencer(at)cableone.net> wrote:

 

 >  Anybody know how the 912s likes autofuel with

 ethanol in it? For all the

 > info that Rotax sends out on their engines I don't

 remember seeing anything

 > on this subject from them. Anyody got a link or

 info?

 >

 > Thx Joe

 >

 > Sad but informative.  Those of us using auto fuel

 in our airplane motors

 > now have to consider many additional problems that

 alcohol causes and

 > it's not even good for cars! This was published

 today in the Atlanta

 > Journal-Constitution and written by the CEO of a

 petroleum distributor

 > in Atlanta. Who is pushing ethanol? It's

 apparently not petroleum

 > companies.

 > Ron

 >

 > *

 >

 > *

 >

 >

 


	


Looking for last minute shopping deals?

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:25 am Post subject: ethanol in autogas

Dennis,

In addition to these problems, which are true enough, it takes 3 gallons 

of water to make one gallon of ethanol and the water tables are going 

down where these processing

plants are located.  The pollution from ethanol is a more serious 

problem than gasoline and the only reason we're doing this is, as you 

say, government support.

I won't buy an E85 vehicle or use that product and we've quit buying 

beef, where possible, as a matter of principle. 



Larry McFarland

do not archive



Dennis Shoup wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		        I recall reading a year ago that Rotax prohibits the use of 

 ethanol bearing fuel.  Ethanol goes back to the 80's it when was 

 called gasohol and car many car manufacturers warned against using it 

 because of deterioration of engine seals and rubber parts.

      Ethanol results in poorer fuel consumption according to several 

 automotive publications tests.  For us that means reduced range and 

 endurance since larger fuel tanks and greater weight aren't a very 

 good choice for us.  Those same reports also mention the cost of 

 ethanol production being higher than gasoline.  It is only profitable 

 because of Federal subsidies.  The car manufacturers also receive 

 Federal subsidies for producing alternate fuel vehicles and ethanol is 

 the only immediately available alternate.  Farmers enjoy higher corn 

 prices as well.  The consumer pays for all of the subsidies as well as 

 higher prices for corn and beef which is fed with more expensive corn.

      The government is taking care of us again.

 Dennis

  

  

 On Jan 29, 2008 9:44 AM, Joe Spencer <jpspencer(at)cableone.net 

 <mailto:jpspencer(at)cableone.net>> wrote:



     Anybody know how the 912s likes autofuel with ethanol in it? For

     all the info that Rotax sends out on their engines I don't

     remember seeing anything on this subject from them. Anyody got a

     link or info?

      

     Thx Joe

      

     Sad but informative.  Those of us using auto fuel in our airplane

     motors

     now have to consider many additional problems that alcohol causes and

     it's not even good for cars! This was published today in the Atlanta

     Journal-Constitution and written by the CEO of a petroleum

     distributor

     in Atlanta. Who is pushing ethanol? It's apparently not petroleum

     companies.

     Ron



     *

     *

 *

 *

moorecomp

Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 32

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: Re: ethanol in autogas

All,



SI-912-016



http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/pdf/dokus/d03830.pdf



Page 8



"Fuel with more than 5% alcohol added must not be used."



Best regards,

Craig Moore A&P

Mancelona, MI

701 builder wannabe

entecrj(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:19 am Post subject: ethanol in autogas

[quote]   Subject: Re: ethanol in    autogas

   



   <I recall reading a year ago that Rotax prohibits the use of ethanol    bearing fuel.  Ethanol goes back to the 80's it when was called gasohol    and car many car manufacturers warned against using it because of    deterioration of engine seals and rubber parts.

   Ethanol results in poorer fuel consumption according to several    automotive publications tests. 

   < Farmers enjoy higher corn prices as well.  The    consumer pays for all of the subsidies as well as higher prices for corn and    beef which is fed with more expensive corn.

    

   +++++++++++++++++++

   I started burning gasohol in    my 81 buick right after I bought it new in 1981, it was still running great    with no problems when I sold it with 130,000 miles on it. I still run gasohol in my car and    pickup.

   As far as the "expensive corn" that    is being fed to the cattle, this is called brewers grain, and is currently    being given to the feedlots.

    

   



      R. Johnson



Dodge City, Kansas 

    

   do not    archive

[b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: ethanol in autogas

Kitplanes just did a tour of the Rotax plant and asked the ethanol question.

Here is what the factory says:



"I asked about ethanol in gasoline. (Premium auto gas is the recommended

912/914 fuel.) The answer: Up to 5% is OK if airframe systems can tolerate

it



Overall it is a very interesting article for Rotax and non-Rotax owners

alike. But you have to be a subscriber. For example I had heard that you

could fly a 912 at 50% power after loss of coolant. But the following was

news to me:



"Now focusing on the 912/914 market, Rotax noted some of the unconventional

features. Liquid-cooling the cylinder heads adds to the durability of the

valves, valve seats and the heads themselves. The engines can fly for up to

an hour without coolant, as the lower liners are air-cooled."



-- Craig

mountain4don

Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 29

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: ethanol in autogas

Larry,



Those of us that live in the Heartland of the United States wish to purchase products made in the United States to support our neighbors and citizens of the United States.  I gladly burn American Made E85 in my E85 enabled, American Made pickup truck.  And am planning to design my 601 XL engine to also run on E85.  I ate American Made beef and vegetables for my supper tonight, while watching the free water falling out of the sky in the form of snow.  Water is not used up.  It is always recycled.  And I don't believe we are going to run out in the next thousand years.  The oceans are rising aren't they?  And I don't wish to support any more middle eastern oil sheiks and increase our foreign deficit.  I like American Made tools also.  And the things you say about alcohol production simply aren't true or relevant to the subject of burning alcohol in our airplanes.



Don Mountain 



LarryMcFarland  <larry(at)macsmachine.com> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland 



Dennis,

In addition to these problems, which are true enough, it takes 3 gallons 

of water to make one gallon of ethanol and the water tables are going 

down where these processing

plants are located.  The pollution from ethanol is a more serious 

problem than gasoline and the only reason we're doing this is, as you 

say, government support.

I won't buy an E85 vehicle or use that product and we've quit buying 

beef, where possible, as a matter of principle. 



Larry McFarland

do not archive



Dennis Shoup wrote:

[quote]      I recall reading a year ago that Rotax prohibits the use of 

 ethanol bearing fuel.  Ethanol goes back to the 80's it when was 

 called gasohol and car many car  manufacturers warned against using it 

 because of deterioration of engine seals and rubber parts.

      Ethanol results in poorer fuel consumption according to several 

 automotive publications tests.  For us that means reduced range and 

 endurance since larger fuel tanks and greater weight aren't a very 

 good choice for us.  Those same reports also mention the cost of 

 ethanol production being higher than gasoline.  It is only profitable 

 because of Federal subsidies.  The car manufacturers also receive 

 Federal subsidies for producing alternate fuel vehicles and ethanol is 

 the only immediately available alternate.  Farmers enjoy higher corn 

 prices as well.  The consumer pays for all of the subsidies as well as 

 higher prices for corn and beef which is fed with more expensive corn.

      The government is taking care of us again.

 Dennis

  

   

 On Jan 29, 2008 9:44 AM, Joe Spencer 

 > wrote:



     Anybody know how the 912s likes autofuel with ethanol in it? For

     all the info that Rotax sends out on their engines I don't

     remember seeing anything on this subject from them. Anyody got a

     link or info?

      

     Thx Joe

      

     Sad but informative.  Those of us using auto fuel in our airplane

     motors

     now have to consider many additional problems that alcohol causes and

     it's not even good for cars! This was published today in the Atlanta

     Journal-Constitution and written by the CEO of a petroleum

     distributor

     in Atlanta. Who is pushing ethanol? It's apparently not petroleum

     companies.

     Ron



     *

     *

      [quote][b]

_________________
Zenith 601XL, tail done, working on wings

Al Hays

Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 42
Location: Gore, VA

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: ethanol in autogas

Larry,

I have to agree that ethanol is not the best answer (at least it's  

better than methanol) and I think having government subsidies and  

congressional mandates for its continued production from corn is  

reprehensible.  Nevertheless, I intend to make my engine and fuel  

system capable of ingesting it when unavoidable.  The February issue  

of Popular Mechanics has an excellent Op-Ed on page 54 titled "The  

Ethanol Fallacy".   If a copy isn't handy, it is on the web at:   

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/4237539.html

Al Hays

Do not archive

On Jan 29, 2008, at 11:18 AM, LarryMcFarland wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <larry(at)macsmachine.com>



 Dennis,

 In addition to these problems, which are true enough, it takes 3  

 gallons of water to make one gallon of ethanol and the water tables  

 are going down where these processing

 plants are located.  The pollution from ethanol is a more serious  

 problem than gasoline and the only reason we're doing this is, as  

 you say, government support.

 I won't buy an E85 vehicle or use that product and we've quit  

 buying beef, where possible, as a matter of principle.

 Larry McFarland

 do not archive



 Dennis Shoup wrote:

>      I recall reading a year ago that Rotax prohibits the use of  

> ethanol bearing fuel.  Ethanol goes back to the 80's it when was  

> called gasohol and car many car manufacturers warned against using  

> it because of deterioration of engine seals and rubber parts.

>      Ethanol results in poorer fuel consumption according to  

> several automotive publications tests.  For us that means reduced  

> range and endurance since larger fuel tanks and greater weight  

> aren't a very good choice for us.  Those same reports also mention  

> the cost of ethanol production being higher than gasoline.  It is  

> only profitable because of Federal subsidies.  The car  

> manufacturers also receive Federal subsidies for producing  

> alternate fuel vehicles and ethanol is the only immediately  

> available alternate.  Farmers enjoy higher corn prices as well.   

> The consumer pays for all of the subsidies as well as higher  

> prices for corn and beef which is fed with more expensive corn.

>      The government is taking care of us again.

> Dennis

>  On Jan 29, 2008 9:44 AM, Joe Spencer <jpspencer(at)cableone.net  

> <mailto:jpspencer(at)cableone.net>> wrote:

>

>     Anybody know how the 912s likes autofuel with ethanol in it? For

>     all the info that Rotax sends out on their engines I don't

>     remember seeing anything on this subject from them. Anyody got a

>     link or info?

>          Thx Joe

>          Sad but informative.  Those of us using auto fuel in our  

> airplane

>     motors

>     now have to consider many additional problems that alcohol  

> causes and

>     it's not even good for cars! This was published today in the  

> Atlanta

>     Journal-Constitution and written by the CEO of a petroleum

>     distributor

>     in Atlanta. Who is pushing ethanol? It's apparently not petroleum

>     companies.

>     Ron

>

>     *

>     *

> *

> *

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: ethanol in autogas

Al,

The article is accurate, but leaves out the fact that water used in 

production is wasted and not getting back into the soil. The binder that 

allows alcohol to blend with gasoline

and other mixes is the culprit which eats aluminum, resins and other 

materials like cork and synthetic rubber. I'm not concerned in the long 

run because ethanol will crumble of its own weight when the government 

drops its subsidy.  Batteries have made stunning progress the last 6 

months which will have GM rethinking the expensive battery they've

contracted for the Volt.  Three companies have revolutionized battery 

technology to the point that 40 miles will be unacceptable and 200 will 

be the the new

milestone for the next run of electric cars.  Thermoelectric generators 

will replace the alternator and Butanol will eventually replace ethanol 

as a better product that's cheaper

to produce, is stable, is interchangeable and has equal performance 

properties to gasoline. Good source for latest developments is

the Technology Review. see link, 

http://www.technologyreview.com/index.aspx



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com  (Subaru and 87 octane / 

10% mandated ethanol)



Al Hays wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <alhays(at)hickoryhillfarmsheep.com>



 Larry,

 I have to agree that ethanol is not the best answer (at least it's 

 better than methanol) and I think having government subsidies and 

 congressional mandates for its continued production from corn is 

 reprehensible.  Nevertheless, I intend to make my engine and fuel 

 system capable of ingesting it when unavoidable.  The February issue 

 of Popular Mechanics has an excellent Op-Ed on page 54 titled "The 

 Ethanol Fallacy".   If a copy isn't handy, it is on the web at:  

 http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/4237539.html

 Al Hays

 Do not archive

 On Jan 29, 2008, at 11:18 AM, LarryMcFarland wrote:



> 

> <larry(at)macsmachine.com>

>

> Dennis,

> In addition to these problems, which are true enough, it takes 3 

> gallons of water to make one gallon of ethanol and the water tables 

> are going down where these processing

> plants are located.  The pollution from ethanol is a more serious 

> problem than gasoline and the only reason we're doing this is, as you 

> say, government support.

> I won't buy an E85 vehicle or use that product and we've quit buying 

> beef, where possible, as a matter of principle.

> Larry McFarland

> do not archive

>

> Dennis Shoup wrote:

>>      I recall reading a year ago that Rotax prohibits the use of 

>> ethanol bearing fuel.  Ethanol goes back to the 80's it when was 

>> called gasohol and car many car manufacturers warned against using 

>> it because of deterioration of engine seals and rubber parts.

>>      Ethanol results in poorer fuel consumption according to several 

>> automotive publications tests.  For us that means reduced range and 

>> endurance since larger fuel tanks and greater weight aren't a very 

>> good choice for us.  Those same reports also mention the cost of 

>> ethanol production being higher than gasoline.  It is only 

>> profitable because of Federal subsidies.  The car manufacturers also 

>> receive Federal subsidies for producing alternate fuel vehicles and 

>> ethanol is the only immediately available alternate.  Farmers enjoy 

>> higher corn prices as well.  The consumer pays for all of the 

>> subsidies as well as higher prices for corn and beef which is fed 

>> with more expensive corn.

>>      The government is taking care of us again.

>> Dennis

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