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"clip-wing Firestar/Slingshot wannabe"

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Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: "clip-wing Firestar/Slingshot wannabe"

Oh, changed the Tagline in case anyone was interested in your  project.

 steve

  

  In a message dated 1/29/2008 4:43:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  1planeguy(at)kilocharlie.us writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  "clip-wing Firestar/Slingshot  wannabe" 	




Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: "clip-wing Firestar/Slingshot wannabe"

In a message dated 1/29/2008 4:43:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  1planeguy(at)kilocharlie.us writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  "clip-wing Firestar/Slingshot wannabe" 	
 Thanks for posting the pictures Jeremy, 

  

 How short are you going on the wings

 What kind of struts

 what kind of engine

 What is that frame hanging from the ceiling?   

 Steve  B

Firefly 007/Floats with small unsafe wings (-:

do not  archive





Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

1planeguy(at)kilocharlie.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: "clip-wing Firestar/Slingshot wannabe"

 	  Quote: 	
		       "clip-wing Firestar/Slingshot wannabe"

 

 Thanks for posting the pictures Jeremy,

  

 How short are you going on the wings

 What kind of struts

 what kind of engine

 What is that frame hanging from the ceiling?

  

 Steve B

 Firefly 007/Floats with small unsafe wings (-:

 do not archive

<snip>
	




Wings are going to be 22' just like Firefly/Slingshot...7 full ribs 

instead of the 5 on a Firefly.  Single lift struts.  incidence and 

decalage rigged like the Slingshot to get the 3 point stance up with the 

lower AOA of the wing.  Flip-over Slingshot-like canopy.  Will have 

longer than stock Firestar legs...most likely straight like the Kolbra 

instead of bent like the Slingshot.  Have a 503 to put on it but am 

trying to talk myself into the HKS.



Jeremy Casey



The cage was a Kitfox Series 5 project that I decided not to build...got 

my money back out of it and sent it on its way.

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: "clip-wing Firestar/Slingshot wannabe"

In a message dated 1/30/2008 1:44:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  1planeguy(at)kilocharlie.us writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		       Have a 503 to put on it but am 

trying to talk myself into the  HKS. 	
  

 Sounds good, did you make provisions for the added weight of the HKS?

  	  Quote: 	
		  

    

   Steve    B

Firefly 007/Floats

do not  archive

	


Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: "clip-wing Firestar/Slingshot wannabe"

Jeremy 

 I have installed and set up two HKS Engines  I  dont think you will be disapointed with one on your kolb there a very nice 4  stroker only my opinion 

  

  I had another airplane N941LA get its  airworthyness today  6 more planes to finish now 

 Ellery in Maine 

  

 Do Not Archive

  

  

  In a message dated 1/30/2008 1:44:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  1planeguy(at)kilocharlie.us writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kolb-List message posted by: Jeremy Casey    <1planeguy(at)kilocharlie.us>

 	  Quote: 	
		       "clip-wing    Firestar/Slingshot wannabe"

 

 Thanks for posting the pictures    Jeremy,

  

 How short are you going on the wings

    What kind of struts

 what kind of engine

 What is that frame    hanging from the ceiling?

  

 Steve B

 Firefly    007/Floats with small unsafe wings (-:

 do not    archive

<snip>
	




Wings are going to be 22' just like    Firefly/Slingshot...7 full ribs 

instead of the 5 on a Firefly.     Single lift struts.  incidence and 

decalage rigged like the Slingshot    to get the 3 point stance up with the 

lower AOA of the wing.     Flip-over Slingshot-like canopy.  Will have 

longer than stock    Firestar legs...most likely straight like the Kolbra 

instead of bent like    the Slingshot.  Have a 503 to put on it but am 

trying to talk myself    into the HKS.



Jeremy Casey



The cage was a Kitfox Series 5    project that I decided not to build...got 

my money back out of it and sent    it on its    es  y       -->                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  nbsp;               - List Contribution Web Site  ;                             =========================



	




Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:32 am Post subject: Re:

It is pretty well known that a longer wingspan results in better performance.  By making the wingspan shorter, you will most likely...



Reduce Climb Rate

Reduce the Glide Ratio

Poor performance at high altitude density

Very probably reduce cruise speed

Increase Takeoff and landing distances

Increase stall speed



You reduce a lot of safety margins by reducing the wingspan of the plane.  There will be some advantages like higher roll rate and a couple others, it might not be worth all the bad effects shorter wings will have.  You should research what you are dong and the effects before you do this.

 

Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Mnflyer

Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 78

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: Re: HKS WT VS 503

The weight of the HKS is about 25 to 30 lb more than a 503 ( its within 3 lbs of a 582)depending on accessories like starter, oil injection gearbox type etc. The HKS is a 60 hp engine thus 8 more than a dual carb dual ignition 503 burns 3 gph running it at 5700 rpms and has electric start a very quiet ignition and alternator (minimal noise in the radio) and starts almost instantly, has a 800 TBO.

GB

_________________
GB
MNFlyer
Flying a HKS Kitfox III

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: "clip-wing Firestar/Slingshot wannabe"

In a message dated 1/31/2008 12:35:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  orcabonita(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

It    is pretty well known that a longer wingspan results in better    performance.  By making the wingspan shorter, you will most    likely...

	
 Yes Mike, but,   What if the wing you are starting with is too  long?  You are assuming that the original Firestar wing is "The Right  Length".  As I understand it the original Firestar has almost as much wing  area as Your MKIIIX. By your logic you would have to increase your wingspan to  almost 60 feet.

  

 As far as a longer wing being better, It depends what the mission is. By  virtue of the fact that I fly my Firefly with 60 # of float all the time, I Am  60# over weight of a standard Fly. Performance  is tremendous.

  

 At one point Bryan and I thought about increasing the wingspan a tad but  after flying the stock configuration for two years I see no reason to do  so.

 As far as:

  

 Reduce Climb  Rate   -----------              Climbs at over 800 fpm with Floats

Reduce the Glide  Ratio  -----------          Doubt it

Poor performance at high altitude density    ----------   flies nice at 8000 ft

Very probably reduce cruise  speed  ----------doubt it

Increase Takeoff and landing  distances    ------------Takeoff on Glassy water  150 ft/  Lands on less

Increase stall speed  ---------------- You might be right  here, but the current stall is fine

  

  

 I am not trying to give you a hard time here Mike but it is pretty hard to  beat the package that Dennis S and the crew put  together.      

  

 I suggest that you try the stew before you add Salt, The Chef may have  gotten it right.

  

 Steve

Firefly 007/Floats

do not  archive





Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: "clip-wing Firestar/Slingshot wannabe"

Most of what you say is true about the clipped wings.  My MkIII has  

the bow tips shortened by a foot. (X2)

giving me about the same area as a FSII , ~ 150sq'.  Since it came  

with one wing intact I wasn't

ambitious enough to change it.  There are benefits:  the roll rate is  

much better than my old (yawn) aeronca,

less drag for a blazing 65 mph cruise, space to get the left tip past  

an old VW beetle carcass in the shed,

a little easier to install/remove the safety pins for the fold back  

maneuver, which I skip and take them off anyway.



If I had the extra two feet I could get a fatter girlfriend.  -Too  

late for that now.

BB, MkIII, vibratin' suzuki, everything's shorter these days

do not archive



On 31, Jan 2008, at 12:32 PM, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 It is pretty well known that a longer wingspan results in better  

 performance.  By making the wingspan shorter, you will most likely...



 Reduce Climb Rate

 Reduce the Glide Ratio

 Poor performance at high altitude density

 Very probably reduce cruise speed

 Increase Takeoff and landing distances

 Increase stall speed



 You reduce a lot of safety margins by reducing the wingspan of the  

 plane.  There will be some advantages like higher roll rate and a  

 couple others, it might not be worth all the bad effects shorter  

 wings will have.  You should research what you are dong and the  

 effects before you do this.



 Mike



 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast  

 as you could have !!!



 Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161575#161575

1planeguy(at)kilocharlie.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: "clip-wing Firestar/Slingshot wannabe"

JetPilot wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 It is pretty well known that a longer wingspan results in better performance.  By making the wingspan shorter, you will most likely...

 

 Reduce Climb Rate

 Reduce the Glide Ratio

 Poor performance at high altitude density

 Very probably reduce cruise speed

 Increase Takeoff and landing distances

 Increase stall speed

 

 You reduce a lot of safety margins by reducing the wingspan of the plane.  There will be some advantages like higher roll rate and a couple others, it might not be worth all the bad effects shorter wings will have.  You should research what you are dong and the effects before you do this.

  

 Mike


	


<Stall speed is almost entirely controlled by wing AREA, not span.  For 

a given AREA if you vary the span you have to vary the chord to maintain 

the same area...hence you are changing the ASPECT RATIO.  Usually a 

bigger ASPECT RATIO will net a better rate of climb for a given amount 

of power, due to the better SPAN EFFICIENCY.  But in the real world (as 

opposed to the perfect world of fluid dynamics)  a reduction in ASPECT 

RATIO generally produces a lighter structure which in many cases negates 

the small reduction of efficiency (i.e. less efficient wing but it 

doesn't have to lift as much weight). Since I'm not actually changing 

the chord I'll ignore Reynolds number effects for this discussion.



Soooo, Reduce climb rate? With a power increase of 30-50% depending on 

which engine I go with...I don't think so.



Reduce the glide ratio...well the higher wing loading won't help but the 

drag reduction I'm doing will, so the best glide speed will increase but 

the best L/D probably won't be hurt much if at all...some sailplanes 

have much higher wing loading than us (many carry water ballast to 

INCREASE wing loading)and they seem to do all right.



Poor performance at high DA...maybe but see the HP answer above...also 

this is a toy I'm building and my backyard airstrip is at 340' MSL 



Reduce Cruise speed...The decrease of span is basically the first 

modification to every serious RENO racer on the circuit...would reduce 

the higher speeds only if the reduction in area got to the point that 

the Coefficient of Lift got into the high drag part of the curve..also 

see the HP answer above.



Takeoff/landing differences...Takeoff distances are absolutely minuscule 

..300' or 75' still leaves lots of possible runways to use and the 

higher wing loading can reduce float which can net an actual shorter 

TOTAL landing distance required even with the slightly higher approach 

speed.  I also added a flaperon mechanism that will lower the approach 

speeds to at or near the original long wing no-flap configuration.



I guess you could say I've thought a few of these things through 

already...what I don't want is a flitterbug that is so lightly wing 

loaded that it gets shoved around by every little puff of wind and 

turbulence.  Having flown big wings and small wing versions of the same 

plane, I'll take the smaller wings (within reason) every time...that's 

just my choice...might not be everyones choice but that's one of those 

great things about having your own 



Jeremy Casey

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