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tjs22t(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: test flight

do not archive



I know there are circumstances that prevent some builders from doing the 

first flight, but the best advice received from ZAC came from Roger who told 

me to never allow anyone else to make the first flight.  Boy was he correct.



I'll not make crass comparisons with other "firsts," but you will never 

forget this one experience - you, and you alone, have created magic.



jeff

 	  Quote: 	
		   Bill - no hangups.  My FAA inspector knew I was not going to fly off my 40 

 hours.  I've had a couple of guys step forward and they are working on it 

 one weekend at a time.

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:00 am Post subject: Re: test flight

Jeff,

You are correct in that there can be few more satisfying experiences than taking an airplane that you built into the sky for it's first flight.  I congratulate you on such a great accomplishment.



I hope that not everyone takes Roger's advice. It would be more correct to say that builders who have the experience and currency to deal with unexpected and "different" flying characteristics should be able to conduct the first flight safely.  If I were the builder I would want to try to prepare myself to be able to conduct that momentous flight, but I wouldn't let my ego or personal desires get in the way of common sense.



In my career I have just happened to be on the scene on two occasions when a homebuilder attempted the first flight in his creation and crashed in the attempt.  Fortunately both survived, but only one plane was rebuildable.



The first guy was a private pilot who hadn't flown in 5 years and was attempting to fly a taildragger for the first time that had a prop that rotated in the opposite direction to the typical continental or lycoming.  He lost control on the takeoff roll and went off the runway, hit a snowbank and flipped upside down.  



 The second was a guy who had maybe 200 hours in a Cessna 150.  He was flying a low wing speedy looking thing (don't remember what) and over-rotated on takeoff causing the tail to bang the runway hard.  The plane leapt into the air causing him to overreact by jamming the nose down at which point he impacted the runway, sheared the nosewheel and prop and slid along the pavement until coming to rest.



Assuming that my first (and subsequent flights) are successful I hope to be able to use my plane help some other guys get ready to fly their own...  There is no substitute for recent experience in type.



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: test flight

T.J and Scott-

    I wasn't planning on having someone fly off all 40 hrs, just have an 

exceptional pilot I know who's done the shakedown runs on all kinds of 

planes get it in the air and let me know what rigging changes are needed (If 

any). Then, after the rigging is right, have him ride right seat for a 

couple of hours and give me a heads up on the handling quirks. In 24 

years/SEL, I've never flown a low wing plane, and can't rent so much as a 

Cherokee around here.

    As the insane asylum inmate said, "I'm crazy, not stupid!" Pretty much 

sums up homebuilding.

                                                                Bill

                                 do not archive

---

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:50 pm Post subject: test flight

Don't you need some sort of FAA exemption to have a passenger/copilot in the

plane during the 40 hour fly off?



-- Craig



--

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: test flight

The regs say only required crewmembers...  I don't know if you could stretch that interpretation to cover such a situation.... I'd pose it to the EAA and get their input.



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: test flight

Here's my take on the issue. You could not stretch  the regs to claim that you need a passenger or copilot to establish the plane's  performance with two souls on board. Dead weight in the right seat would  definitely suffice. You could probably bring a safety pilot if your flight  was scheduled to test the HSI or other IFR gear under simulated IMC. I will ask  for a copilot allowance for setting and calibrating the AOA system of my glass  panels. It takes the pilot to fly into and through a stall and recovery several  times to establish the critical AOA speed in the existing conditions. It also  requires flying a zero G parabola to establish a zero lift reference. In those  two exercises, the calibrate button must be pressed at the exact critical  moment called for in the calibration procedure. In my opinion, that would  be safest with two on board. I can't think of anything else in the test flight  hours that would justify a second crew member. Maybe checking the coffee  maker?

  

 Dred

 [quote]   ---

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject: test flight

All-

     None of the recent posts  reflects my intent. The shakedown hours need not count towards the 40 "Fly  Off" hours, and the test pilot I spoke of is a CFII.

     To keep it short, I intend to do  whatever is necessary and legal to give me the best chance of flying  my project safely. 

                                                                     Bill

                                    do  not archive

 [quote]   ---

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: Re: test flight

I'm a little confused by your phrasing here Bill. When you don't say, "The shakedown hours need not count towards the 40 "Fly  Off" hours..." It sounds  like you think if you don't call it Phase One flight it isn't. That isn't the case. It's a Phase One flight until you have flown off the hours and have entered Phase Two. And the regulations are pretty clear that in order to have a second pilot in the aircraft during Phase One it has to be approved by the FAA and in the operating limitations.



The fact that the test pilot is a CFI isn't really at issue. If he is a smart CFI he isn't going to risk his certificates doing something that, if caught, would certainly lead to some level of FAA action against him.



I don't know where you live but if there is another 601 anywhere near by you could get some dual with him in it and he could also use this time to layout any  handling differences in your plane and the one you get dual in.

 	  naumuk(at)alltel.net wrote: 	
		  All-

     None of the recent posts  reflects my intent. The shakedown hours need not count towards the 40 "Fly  Off" hours, and the test pilot I spoke of is a CFII.

     To keep it short, I intend to do  whatever is necessary and legal to give me the best chance of flying  my project safely. 

                                                                     Bill

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:08 am Post subject: test flight

I agree.  The 40-hour "fly-off" IS the shakedown, not a different phase. "Fly-off" or "shakedown", which ever your want to call it, starts when the wheels first leave the ground. The FAA wants to make sure your "homemade" contraption is safe to fly before you risk the life of an innocent passenger. Making exceptions invites abuse of the policy.  That said, I do believe the FAA should be realistic about allowing another person aboard who is not just a passenger, but an actual co-pilot, technical adviser or really essential helper. I fully expect to appeal to them for such an exception during my 40 hours of flight testing.

Jay in Dallas 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"

"Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

I'm a little confused by your phrasing here Bill. When you don't say, "The shakedown hours need not count towards the 40 "Fly  Off" hours..." It sounds  like you think if you don't call it Phase One flight it isn't. That isn't the case. It's a Phase One flight until you have flown off the hours and have entered Phase Two. And the regulations are pretty clear that in order to have a second pilot in the aircraft during Phase One it has to be approved by the FAA and in the operating limitations.

The fact that the test pilot is a CFI isn't really at issue. If he is a smart CFI he isn't going to risk his certificates doing something that, if caught, would certainly lead to some level of FAA action against him.

I don't know where you live but if there is another 601 anywhere near by you could get some dual with him in it and he could also use this time to layout any  handling differences in your plane and the one you get dual in.

naumuk(at)alltel.net wrote:

> All-

>      None of the recent posts  reflects my intent. The shakedown hours need not count towards the 40 "Fly  Off" hours, and the test pilot I spoke of is a CFII.

>      To keep it short, I intend to do  whatever is necessary and legal to give me the best chance of flying  my project safely. 

>                                                                      Bill

> 

--------

W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

601XL Under Construction

See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161059#161059

victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:58 am Post subject: test flight

Please be careful about recommending that the builder perform the test 

flight. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depends on a lot of factors.



We just lost a 601XL here recently on the first flight, our EAA chapter 

lost two very enthusiastic members, and a very good man nearly lost his 

life... mostly because he did the first flight himself (and made 

incorrect decisions related to the first flight). Only by the grace of 

God, he escaped with a couple of scrapes.



He just simply was not the right guy to do the first flight, and his 

actions before and during an emergency (912 failure) resulted in a total 

loss instead of an otherwise minor incident. And this guy was no 

slack-jawed hillbilly either, he is an extremely intelligent 

professional who had taken great pains to do almost everything else that 

day in a safe manner, flew a recommended "test card", flew very 

methodically, etc.



Some builders should be OK to do the first flight on some airplanes, in 

some conditions, and with some things going in his/her favor.

dj45

Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 92
Location: Jackson MI

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: Re: test flight

Bill, It may not be exactly legal, I think I would have the test pilot take the plane to a non towered field and do your thing. And don't do a lot of bragging about how well things went.

After you are comfortable, do your 40 hrs. at your home field.

I don't even have my license yet and have to watch my partner/sister fly off the time before I can even use it for my training. You don't have it all bad.

Good luck and the first flight is a gas.(I would imagine)

_________________
Do not archive

Dan Stanton
N801S CH 801
N226BS CH701
N24DS CH750

Aerolitellc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: test flight

Just remember if you do anything like that you have 0 insurance should  something happen. And I doubt any CFI will say he was flying and have that on  his record should things go wrong.

  

 do not archive



Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: test flight

For someone who doesn't even have your license yet you sure seem quick to have someone else put theirs up for grabs.



And those non-towered fields are often chocked full of people that will report you.



 	  dj45 wrote: 	
		  Bill, It may not be exactly legal, I think I would have the test pilot take the plane to a non towered field and do your thing. And don't do a lot of bragging about how well things went.

After you are comfortable, do your 40 hrs. at your home field.

I don't even have my license yet and have to watch my partner/sister fly off the time before I can even use it for my training. You don't have it all bad.

Good luck and the first flight is a gas.(I would imagine)

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

dj45

Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 92
Location: Jackson MI

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: test flight

Well, I certainly did ask for that.

_________________
Do not archive

Dan Stanton
N801S CH 801
N226BS CH701
N24DS CH750

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: Test flight

All-

     As I said, I would do all that  was LEGAL to ensure my confidence. I'm not looking for ways to buck the  system.

     Is there anything illegal with  letting another qualified person make one or more flights, then passing on his  findings before the owner gets in the cockpit? Start the 40 hrs from that point?  I'm interested in the responses from flying posters, but don't want to drag this  thread on.

     Over and out.

                                                                     Bill

                                  do  not archive

 Bill Naumuk

Townville, Pa.

HDS  Fuse/Corvair

   [quote][b]

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: test flight

Let me give you a CFI's perspective.  In short, we are supposed to know better.  The FAA would show little sympathy to a CFI shown to be bending the rules.



Another issue that comes up is pilot in command.  As a CFI, even if I am not acting as pilot in command by legal definition, I am expected to do my best to exert some influence over the flying pilot to conduct the flight in a safe manner. Numerous legal cases have found that pilot "passengers" with higher ratings than the flying pilot have some culpability when it comes to accidents and etc.  The attitude is: "he should have done something." 



Personally, I might use my personal aircraft to help a fellow prepare to fly his own 601 but I would refuse to give him any dual in his plane until the required hours were flown off.  I have had a CFII for 23 years and plan to keep it.



Tim

do not archive

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: test flight

Reply to Bill's last post - I don't believe the 40 hours has to be flown off by the same person.  If you have a test pilot make the first few flights and then take over, his hours should count towards the total.



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: Test flight

hi Bill,

Nothing wrong with having someone that's flown a Piper PA28 or equal do 

your first flight if necessary. I'd recommend you rent a Piper and get a 

CFI to get you comfortable with it and then transition to your 601.  The 

flight characteristics are similar, but the 601 is a bit lighter and 

more responsive, and just easier to fly.  Putting someone in before

you isn't going to make it any easier for you to fly it.  Perhaps 

there's someone in PA that has a HDS that would be willing to get you 

transitioned.



Larry McFarland



Bill Naumuk wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   All-

     As I said, I would do all that was LEGAL to ensure my confidence. 

 I'm not looking for ways to buck the system.

     Is there anything illegal with letting another qualified person 

 make one or more flights, then passing on his findings before the 

 owner gets in the cockpit? Start the 40 hrs from that point? I'm 

 interested in the responses from flying posters, but don't want to 

 drag this thread on.

     Over and out.

                                                                 Bill

                                  do not archive

 Bill Naumuk

 Townville, Pa.

 HDS Fuse/Corvair

 *

 *

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Test flight

No Bill there's nothing wrong with that. In fact it is a great idea. There is no reason though not to count the time the first pilot flies in the 40 hours.

 	  naumuk(at)alltel.net wrote: 	
		  All-

     As I said, I would do all that  was LEGAL to ensure my confidence. I'm not looking for ways to buck the  system.

     Is there anything illegal with  letting another qualified person make one or more flights, then passing on his  findings before the owner gets in the cockpit? Start the 40 hrs from that point?  I'm interested in the responses from flying posters, but don't want to drag this  thread on.

     Over and out.

                                                                     Bill

           ï¿½           ï¿½          do  not archive

 Bill Naumuk

Townville, Pa.

HDS  Fuse/Corvair

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

tjs22t(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:13 am Post subject: Test flight

 	  Quote: 	
		   Perhaps

 there's someone in PA that has a HDS that would be willing to get you 

 transitioned.


	


All Bill (and Lynn too) have to do is get the 125 or so miles to the 

southeast and show up in Carlisle, PA.



The subs and pizza are on them, the HDS on me.



CAVU   Jeff Small     in southcentral PA where winds are 30 gusting to 40+



do not archive

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