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speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: V Speeds

Does anyone have a list of the V speeds for setting up my EFIS?  I have

searched the archives and still cannot find specifically what I need.



Thanks

Gary

40274

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:12 pm Post subject: V Speeds

Keep in mind that you as the builder may have different speeds than this 

generic one.

Pascal

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airspeeds.pdf

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randy(at)romeolima.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: V Speeds

All your speeds should be derived from testing, that's what Phase I is all 

about. Lots of reasons why, just one is that every pitot/static system has 

its idiosyncracies and will yield different speeds. This is actually a 

problem IMHO with the homebuilt community... builders just take numbers from 

someone elses plane and never test. That is not only against the rules but 

it's dangerous. No shortcuts, please test appropriately and fly safely.



Randy Lervold

RV-8, sold

RV-3B www.rv-3.com

---

VHMUM(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject: V Speeds

Randy I am confused here  I thought the V speeds would be calculated by the 

engineer who designs the aircraft .  I am probably missing your point.



regards Chris 388

Wings painted and glowing



---

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: V Speeds

My thoughts, for what they are worth is that each plane will be the same 

basically but different uniquely. So the speeds are a good start for the 

Phase 1 testing but one needs to confirm if the speeds are accurate for the 

uniquely built plane. As much as we are all building the RV-10 mine will be 

faster than the majority due to the lack of instruments and paint and holy 

cow cowling with the 5 blade carbon and titanium blade... my point is weight 

will play a factor in speeds as will the aerodynamic perfection of bondo..

just my thoughts..



Pascal

---

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: V Speeds

I'm right with you there, Randy.  That's why when people grab my

POH, I tell them this is just a base document that they need to

test for themselves, and won't necessarily fit their needs.



So, for some rough numbers, check the POH's, but for the real deal,

there's nothing like flying to find out.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Randy Lervold wrote:

[quote] 

 

 All your speeds should be derived from testing, that's what Phase I is 

 all about. Lots of reasons why, just one is that every pitot/static 

 system has its idiosyncracies and will yield different speeds. This is 

 actually a problem IMHO with the homebuilt community... builders just 

 take numbers from someone elses plane and never test. That is not only 

 against the rules but it's dangerous. No shortcuts, please test 

 appropriately and fly safely.

 

 Randy Lervold

 RV-8, sold

 RV-3B www.rv-3.com

 

 

 ---

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject: V Speeds

Well put Randy....But knowing Gary he is just looking for a starting point,not skirting the intent of phase I.



Rick Sked

40185



do not archive

---

VHMUM(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: V Speeds

I get it now we are talking about stall speeds and speeds that may change 

with builder setup etc not VNE or Max flap speed rough air etc . I was 

thinking how can you set your own VNE



Bit thick, thanks



Chris 388

Wings still glowing



---

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: V Speeds

For the experts on the list, this would be a good time for you all to  

add in your expertise.  Which speeds should come through testing and  

which should be derived from Van's numbers?  Obviously, bottom of the  

white arc and bottom of the green arc are easy to test and should be  

tested.  Can you really test the top of the white arc, or the yellow  

arc, or the blue line or red line?  The answer to some of these might  

be yes, but I would like to hear what others have to say.  Is it  

possible, safe and responsible to test and determine Vne?  How in the  

world would you non-destructively test the max flap extended speed?   

For the blue line, do you fly and go full elevator up and down until  

you get the the max G's that Van's says they designed for and call  

that the Maneuvering Speed?  I don't know the answers to these.  Maybe  

some do.

John?

do not archive

Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694

On Feb 10, 2008, at 6:22 PM, Tim Olson wrote:

[quote] 

 I'm right with you there, Randy.  That's why when people grab my

 POH, I tell them this is just a base document that they need to

 test for themselves, and won't necessarily fit their needs.

 So, for some rough numbers, check the POH's, but for the real deal,

 there's nothing like flying to find out.

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

 Randy Lervold wrote:

> 

> <randy(at)romeolima.com>

> All your speeds should be derived from testing, that's what Phase I  

> is all about. Lots of reasons why, just one is that every pitot/ 

> static system has its idiosyncracies and will yield different  

> speeds. This is actually a problem IMHO with the homebuilt  

> community... builders just take numbers from someone elses plane  

> and never test. That is not only against the rules but it's  

> dangerous. No shortcuts, please test appropriately and fly safely.

> Randy Lervold

> RV-8, sold

> RV-3B www.rv-3.com

> ---

randy(at)romeolima.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject: V Speeds

Yes the engineer determines the v-speeds in theory, but there are small

differences in airframes (gear leg intersection fairings for example) that

cause differences, and potentially BIG differences in the instrumentation.

In other words let's say we're talking stall speed, Vso, the actual TAS of

your plane at Vso might be the same as your buddy's but your pitot/static

system gives a different result because you used a static port with a

different profile. If you assume his stall speed without testing the

airplane might drop out from under you one day when you're a little slow on

final because you were assuming they were the same. 10 mph differences

between planes in ASI readings at the bottom end of the scale are not

uncommon.



It's fine to use someone elses numbers as a starting point, but to not test

is NOT ok -- it sends chills up my spine thinking about it. I have close

friends who have just gone out and flown their RVs using someone elses

numbers and did no stall testing whatsoever at gross weight & aft CG for

example, only solo/light. The day their test time is flown off they put

Bubba in the pax seat when they have NO IDEA how that load will effect stall

speed or behavior. We are each the manufacturer of our aicraft and are

obliged, both legally and morally I think, derive accurate numbers for safe

operation.



Sorry, off soapbox now, but this is one of my pet peeves.



Randy



---

speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject: V Speeds

I don't comment often, but taking off on the first flight without setting

the various speeds into your EFIS could easily make it your last flight.

Back when there were lots of steam gauges we could take off and check out

all this stuff in phase I.  Now however you take your life into your own

hands if you don't first program your computers.  



Gary

40274



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: V Speeds

Agreed that you want some basic numbers to put in the EFIS, but, in the

end, how do you even know the EFIS is reading accurately?  The V speeds

in the various POH's that people have should be pretty good for

setting general speed settings.  But, since I flew Van's -10 only 2

or 3 days before I flew mine, I had some familiarity with the airplane,

and I had my stall warning set where I *thought* I wanted it.  In the

end, I flew by feel on the first couple of landings, and listened to the

voice yell at me for the landing....since I had it set higher than

I should have.



In essence though, all of those instruments are just general references

on your first flights, because if you had a mis-reading Airspeed

indicator, you certainly wouldn't want to fly by and trust it 100%

until you made sure it was accurate.  With a quick bit of transition

training, the -10 is easy to fly by feel without even using the

instruments...if need be.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

gary wrote:

[quote] 

 

 I don't comment often, but taking off on the first flight without setting

 the various speeds into your EFIS could easily make it your last flight.

 Back when there were lots of steam gauges we could take off and check out

 all this stuff in phase I.  Now however you take your life into your own

 hands if you don't first program your computers.  

 

 Gary

 40274

 

 --

VHMUM(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: V Speeds

With flight testing our 6 the ASI came pre marked  however first flight we disregard the stall marking on the ASI until we did  our first stall on first flight reading exactly where the stall speed was on the  ASI . Then  1.5 for safety and you do not have a good guide for  landing.

 This is basically straight out of the 6  manual. Our ASI was in Kooee of the stall so we did not have to change the  markings.

 We followed what the RV6 manual said to do for  first flight and everything was fine.  

 Max flap speeds ,  rough air and VNE we take  straight from the manual as the engineers have worked that out.

  

 The 10 is very easy to fly as my wife will  tell. She hadnt flown for 2 years , took off had a fly did some   stalls etc and then landed like a pro.  

  

 I tend to follow what the manual says as Van is a  smart man but its great to get others opinion.

  

 regards Chris

   [quote][b]

VHMUM(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: V Speeds

[quote]   Try again

   



   With flight testing our 6 the ASI came pre marked    however first flight we disregard the stall marking on the ASI until we    did our first stall on first flight reading exactly where the stall speed was    on the ASI . Then  1.5 for safety and you do  have a good guide    for landing.

   This is basically straight out of the 6    manual. Our ASI was in Kooee of the stall so we did not have to change    the markings.

   We followed what the RV6 manual said to do for    first flight and everything was fine.  

   Max flap speeds ,  rough air and VNE we take    straight from the manual as the engineers have worked that out.

    

   The 10 is very easy to fly as my wife will    tell. She hadnt flown for 2 years , took off had a fly did some     stalls etc and then landed like a pro.  

    

   I tend to follow what the manual says as Van is a    smart man but its great to get others opinion.

    

   regards Chris

 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

	
[b]

GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: V Speeds

In a message dated 2/10/2008 7:04:07 PM Central Standard Time,  speckter(at)comcast.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I don't    comment often, but taking off on the first flight without setting

the    various speeds into your EFIS could easily make it your last  flight 	


 

 I sort of hope that most builders flying skill are a little better than  that...if you need to fly by numbers then you may not want to be the test  pilot until you buildup some feel skills to test flight a new plane.   Sure you may have some surprise, but for goodness sake get some air under  you and use a longer runway than you think you'll need until you've got the  feel of the plane.  Who knows that any of the instruments may be accure on  your first but you should be able to fly the plane by feel and touch. You  may need to borrow a good handheld GPS that will give you some back up numbers  such as a Garmin 396/496...but don't get too bogged down in the screens and  forget to fly the plane...these wiz bang devices are great but you've only got a  few things to consider....airspeed, attitude and  altitude.



Who's never won?  Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

  [quote][b]

bcondrey

Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 580

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: Re: V Speeds

Anybody that thinks that any of us should be going out and flying a test regime to determine our own Va, Vfe and Vne should seriously rethink their position.  These are design limits!  I have to believe that the early responses were people assuming the request was simply for stall speeds.  



All EFIS systems require entry of the "arc limits" (just like a simple mechanical ASI) so the information can be displayed.



Bob

speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: V Speeds

I can just feel the love  

   

Gary  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com

 Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 9:40 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: V Speeds  

  

       

In a message dated 2/10/2008 7:04:07 PM Central Standard Time, speckter(at)comcast.net writes:  

   	  Quote: 	
		    

I don't comment often, but taking off on the first flight without setting

 the various speeds into your EFIS could easily make it your last flight  	
  

    

I sort of hope that most builders flying skill are a little better than that...if you need to fly by numbers then you may not want to be the test pilot until you buildup some feel skills to test flight a new plane.  Sure you may have some surprise, but for goodness sake get some air under you and use a longer runway than you think you'll need until you've got the feel of the plane.  Who knows that any of the instruments may be accure on your first but you should be able to fly the plane by feel and touch. You may need to borrow a good handheld GPS that will give you some back up numbers such as a Garmin 396/496...but don't get too bogged down in the screens and forget to fly the plane...these wiz bang devices are great but you've only got a few things to consider....airspeed, attitude and altitude.  

  



 

         

  

Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.  

   	  Quote: 	
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       [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: V Speeds

Ha!!  Makes me think.....



"I tested it to Vne,  nope...didn't break.  Well, so I tested it to

20kts greater.  Nope, didn't break.  So I added 50 more kts.

Nope, not yet.  Added another 5 kts.  Dang...was that my wing

that just made that noise?   Yep, Well, there you go....I guess I'll

set the Vne to 270kts. "



That is ALLLLLL nonsense, for those who can't decipher.



Yep, when I commented, I just meant the "other" speeds.  The ones

you just listed??? I'd rather not be a part of testing.



I got a chuckle out of the concept of testing though.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

bcondrey wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <bob.condrey(at)baesystems.com>

 

 Anybody that thinks that any of us should be going out and flying a

 test regime to determine our own Va, Vfe and Vne should seriously

 rethink their position.  These are design limits!  I have to believe

 that the early responses were people assuming the request was simply

 for stall speeds.

 

 All EFIS systems require entry of the "arc limits" (just like a

 simple mechanical ASI) so the information can be displayed.

 

 Bob

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163507#163507

VHMUM(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: V Speeds

Tim was that IAS TAS or CAS?

---

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: V Speeds

Aw, what the heck, it was calibrated true airspeed being indicated.





The hardest part of the testing is that I prefer to set my instruments

to read in furlongs per minute, which really messes with the avionics

algorithm, and I was only showing 41 fur/min, so I figured that

this meant I was still technically WAY under the number 200.....

which was what Van's spec'd, right? 



What fun you can have http://www.onlineconversion.com/speed_all.htm



That's not too bad, considering I have a 197.7 poncelet power engine.

http://www.onlineconversion.com/power.htm



Heck, I'm learning units that I didn't even know existed. 



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Chris and Susie McGough wrote:

[quote] 

 <VHMUM(at)bigpond.com>

 

 Tim was that IAS TAS or CAS?

 

 

 ---

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