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bradfnp(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:54 pm Post subject: Torque values

I am getting ready to put the cabin floor back together and I am curious 

about the torque values for the 3/8" nuts/bolts. Specifically for the rudder 

lateral and center bearings, rudder pedal brackets, etc. My copy of the 

standard aircraft handbook says that a fine thread, 3/8" nut/bolt should be 

tightened to 160 to 190 inch pounds, and my beam-style torque wrench is in 

foot pounds. I ASSUME then, that I would divide the 160 by 12 to get 

13.3333(etc) foot/pounds, which is what I should read off the wrench.

Any thoughts?



Brad Cohen

XL/TD, slow-build kit

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Torque values

Correct on the torque wrench conversion.



Hopefully some of the others will chime in but on things such as the hinges I don't think standard torque values would apply.  I think that in such cases "snug" would be sufficient.  On the hinges you are just trying to capture and hold the bearing and since it is a steel / aluminum interface I think you could easily overdo it.



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: Torque values

Your conversion is correct. But the range of your foot-pound wrench may not

be suitable to a small torque value:



"For instance, did you know that your torque wrench-freshly calibrated by

someone traceable to the National Bureau of Standards-is not accurate in the

first 1/6th and last 1/6th of its range?  That's right:  a 100 ft.lb torque

wrench is accurate only over the middle 2/3 of its range.  So it should not

be used for anything outside of 16?84 ft?lbs!  Size the wrench to the job,

and don't fool yourself into thinking that you can just figure the

conversion from in lb to ft?lb, set that 100 ft?lb torque wrench to 3 foot

pounds, and have 36 inch?pounds.  No telling what you'll have, that far away

from the calibrated zone. "



http://www.vansairforce.org/articles/tips/tip_torque_bolts.html



-- Craig



--

jswanson(at)jamadots.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: Torque values

---

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: Torque values

Also I believe all the nuts you are writing about (rudder pedal bearings)

use self-locking nuts which have significant drag torque. In that case what

you should measure is the total torque (drag plus desired). As it says in

the Zenith Constructions Standards:



"Drag torque: Run the nut down to near contact with the washer and check the

friction drag torque required to turn the nut. Add the drag torque to the

desired torque. This is referred to as the final torque which should

register on the indicator or setting on the torque wrench"



www.zenithair.com/pdf-doc/zenair%20construction%20standards%20draft%201-07.p

df, page 32.



If you have a copy of the Sky Ranch Engineering Manual, read the section on

torque accuracy in chapter 7 "Fasteners and Failures". I love this part at

the start of chapter 7: "What is a bolt? A bolt is a very stiff spring..."



-- Craig



--

Joemotis(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: Torque values

Go buy a click/stop quality torque wrench calibrated in inch/pounds right  now.

 Mechanics torque is not acceptable.

 Every single fastening device on your aircraft has a torque rating and a  whole lotta critical ones are in inch/pounds.

  

 Let me repeat that mechanics torque is not  acceptable...



Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living.

  [quote][b]

psm(at)ATT.NET
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:27 am Post subject: Torque values

Hi Brad,



Yes, inch pounds are 1/12 as much as foot pounds.



I found that lighter strength torque wrenches are calibrated in inch 

pounds and heavier ones in foot pounds.  That means you can 

(apparently) resolve the torque on smaller bolts to one half of an 

inch pound and on larger bolts to one half of a foot pound.  You may 

find it a better choice to have one torque wrench calibrated in each unit.



Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive

At 02:48 PM 2/16/2008, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I am getting ready to put the cabin floor back together and I am 

curious about the torque values for the 3/8" nuts/bolts. 

Specifically for the rudder lateral and center bearings, rudder 

pedal brackets, etc. My copy of the standard aircraft handbook says 

that a fine thread, 3/8" nut/bolt should be tightened to 160 to 190 

inch pounds, and my beam-style torque wrench is in foot pounds. I 

ASSUME then, that I would divide the 160 by 12 to get 13.3333(etc) 

foot/pounds, which is what I should read off the wrench.

Any thoughts?



Brad Cohen

XL/TD, slow-build kit

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:14 am Post subject: Torque values

these are pretty basic questions about torque. I read somewhere you built a "sabrina" motor... Didn't you learn the basics about bolt torque during that process??? 

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



"I am getting ready to put the cabin floor back together and I am curious 

about the torque values for the 3/8" nuts/bolts. Specifically for the rudder 

lateral and center bearings, rudder pedal brackets, etc. My copy of the 

standard aircraft handbook says that a fine thread, 3/8" nut/bolt should

be tightened to 160 to 190 inch pounds, and my beam-style torque 

wrench is in foot pounds. I ASSUME then, that I would divide the 160 by 12 to get 13.3333(etc) foot"



Am I missing something here?  It is not true that the pedal bearing attach bolts are AN3 or 3/16 hardware with a 3/8" head?  The torque values given by Zenith  are based upon the shank size or AN number not the physical size of the socket needed to torque it.  Correct?  



Per Drawing 6-B-9  they are AN3-5A and AN3-15A (3/16")   NOT AN6! (3/8")   So too, the Central Pedal Bearing bolts have special torque values since they control the amount of "grip" or resistance encountered when operating the pedals and are adjusted after the nose gear and rigging are installed. Just snug until then.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/vie================================================================================================;         - MATRONICS WEB F================================================nbsp;                       &================================================

 



_____________________________________________________________

Click here to compare top medical billing products, get demos, and quotes.

   [quote][b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: Torque values

Odd that "THE NUMBER ONE problem" doesn't appear to be addressed anywhere in

the plans or assembly guide. I just checked both. Did I miss something?



Certainly the pedals were stiff on my QBK. But it didn't help that ZAC

painted the whole assembly including the section where the bearing blocks

ride. I guess they compensated for this by using bolts that were too short

through the bearing blocks. The threads didn't even engage the nylon in the

self-locking nuts.



-- Craig



--

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: Torque values

The proper torque on a bolt is definitely based on the size of the  

bolt shank, NOT the size of the head.

On Feb 17, 2008, at 12:54 PM, Sabrina wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 "I am getting ready to put the cabin floor back together and I am  

 curious

 about the torque values for the 3/8" nuts/bolts. Specifically for  

 the rudder

 lateral and center bearings, rudder pedal brackets, etc. My copy of  

 the

 standard aircraft handbook says that a fine thread, 3/8" nut/bolt  

 should

 be tightened to 160 to 190 inch pounds, and my beam-style torque

 wrench is in foot pounds. I ASSUME then, that I would divide the 160  

 by 12 to get 13.3333(etc) foot"



 Am I missing something here?  It is not true that the pedal bearing  

 attach bolts are AN3 or 3/16 hardware with a 3/8" head?  The torque  

 values given by Zenith  are based upon the shank size or AN number  

 not the physical size of the socket needed to torque it.  Correct?



 Per Drawing 6-B-9  they are AN3-5A and AN3-15A (3/16")   NOT AN6!  

 (3/8")   So too, the Central Pedal Bearing bolts have special torque  

 values since they control the amount of "grip" or resistance  

 encountered when operating the pedals and are adjusted after the  

 nose gear and rigging are installed. Just snug until then.


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

Jeyoung65(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:42 pm Post subject: Torque values

Standard torque should be to the nut not the bolt. Also my manual list  the torque for  AN-365 nuts on AN-3  should be 20 inch lbs. not 160 to  190 "#.  Jerry of Ga

  

  In a message dated 2/17/2008 4:51:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin    <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net>



The proper torque on a bolt is    definitely based on the size of the  

bolt shank, NOT the size of the    head.

On Feb 17, 2008, at 12:54 PM, Sabrina wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		      --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Sabrina"    <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



 "I am getting ready to put the    cabin floor back together and I am  

 curious

 about the    torque values for the 3/8" nuts/bolts. Specifically for  

 the    rudder

 lateral and center bearings, rudder pedal brackets, etc. My    copy of  

 the

 standard aircraft handbook says that a fine    thread, 3/8" nut/bolt  

 should

 be tightened to 160 to 190    inch pounds, and my beam-style torque

 wrench is in foot pounds. I    ASSUME then, that I would divide the 160  

 by 12 to get    13.3333(etc) foot"



 Am I missing something here?  It is    not true that the pedal bearing  

 attach bolts are AN3 or 3/16    hardware with a 3/8" head?  The torque  

 values given by    Zenith  are based upon the shank size or AN number  

 not the    physical size of the socket needed to torque it.     Correct?



 Per Drawing 6-B-9  they are AN3-5A and AN3-15A    (3/16")   NOT AN6!  

 (3/8")   So too, the    Central Pedal Bearing bolts have special torque  

 values since    they control the amount of "grip" or resistance  

 encountered    when operating the pedals and are adjusted after the  

 nose gear    and rigging are installed. Just snug until    then.


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601    XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not  nbsp;  he  es  y       -->                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  nbsp;               - List Contribution Web Site  ;                             =========================



	




Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living.

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: Torque values

I am a bit puzzled by your reply, Ben.



This question about torque was posted a day or so ago, and there were 

several responses. But Sabrina was the only one who looked carefully at the 

issue and realized that the bolts in question were 3/16" AN3 bolts with 

3/8" hex heads (with a standard torque of 20-25 in-lbs), not 3/8" AN6 bolts 

(with a standard torque of 160-190 in-lbs). When I saw her reply this 

morning, I burst out laughing, and immediately told my wife about her post. 

There have been several replies to the original post by our older, 

experience builders addressing various aspects of the appropriate torque 

wrenches to use for 190 ft-lbs of torque. But it took a very bright 16-year 

young woman builder to point out that the underlying premise of the whole 

question was flawed.



Sabrina, I take my hat off to you. You are super. It looks to me like you 

understand not only torque, but are bright enough to realize that the wrong 

question had been asked (and answered). Well done!



Terry

At 07:05 PM 2/17/2008 +0000, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  these are pretty basic questions about torque. I read somewhere you built 

a "sabrina" motor... Didn't you learn the basics about bolt torque during 

that process???



do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:




"I am getting ready to put the cabin floor back together and I am curious

about the torque values for the 3/8" nuts/bolts. Specifically for the rudder

lateral and center bearings, rudder pedal brackets, etc. My copy of the

standard aircraft handbook says that a fine thread, 3/8" nut/bolt should

be tightened to 160 to 190 inch pounds, and my beam-style torque

wrench is in foot pounds. I ASSUME then, that I would divide the 160 by 12 

to get 13.3333(etc) foot"



Am I missing something here?  It is not true that the pedal bearing attach 

bolts are AN3 or 3/16 hardware with a 3/8" head?  The torque values given 

by Zenith  are based upon the shank size or AN number not the physical 

size of the socket needed to torque it.  Correct?



Per Drawing 6-B-9  they are AN3-5A and AN3-15A (3/16")   NOT AN6! 

(3/8")   So too, the Central Pedal Bearing bolts have special torque 

values since they control the amount of "grip" or resistance encountered 

when operating the pedals and are adjusted after the nose gear and rigging 

are installed. Just snug until then.


	




Terry Phillips

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons 

are done; working on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

bradfnp(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: Torque values

Holy Crap Batman!,

I did'nt realize that I would set off such a firestorm by asking about 

torque values!

Thanks to all that chimed in, this has been an exciting, and at times, very 

frustrating experience (But who would have it any other way?)



I am a first time builder and unfortunetly don't have a lifetime of 

experience in aircraft maintenance, So some things I am learning as I build- 

and as Shirley at ZAC can affirm, I have bought lots of replacement parts in 

the process!



Thanks again to all, and to Ben, I have no idea what a sabrina motor is, and 

torque values were not part of my E.R. nursing curriculum!



-Brad

XL/TD

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net>

Reply-To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Torque values

Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 15:43:38 -0700






I am a bit puzzled by your reply, Ben.



This question about torque was posted a day or so ago, and there were 

several responses. But Sabrina was the only one who looked carefully at the 

issue and realized that the bolts in question were 3/16" AN3 bolts with 

3/8" hex heads (with a standard torque of 20-25 in-lbs), not 3/8" AN6 bolts 

(with a standard torque of 160-190 in-lbs). When I saw her reply this 

morning, I burst out laughing, and immediately told my wife about her post. 

There have been several replies to the original post by our older, 

experience builders addressing various aspects of the appropriate torque 

wrenches to use for 190 ft-lbs of torque. But it took a very bright 16-year 

young woman builder to point out that the underlying premise of the whole 

question was flawed.



Sabrina, I take my hat off to you. You are super. It looks to me like you 

understand not only torque, but are bright enough to realize that the wrong 

question had been asked (and answered). Well done!



Terry

At 07:05 PM 2/17/2008 +0000, you wrote:



>these are pretty basic questions about torque. I read somewhere you built 

>a "sabrina" motor... Didn't you learn the basics about bolt torque during 

>that process???

>

>do not archive

>Ben Haas

>N801BH

>www.haaspowerair.com

>

>-- "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:

>

>

>"I am getting ready to put the cabin floor back together and I am curious

>about the torque values for the 3/8" nuts/bolts. Specifically for the 

>rudder

>lateral and center bearings, rudder pedal brackets, etc. My copy of the

>standard aircraft handbook says that a fine thread, 3/8" nut/bolt should

>be tightened to 160 to 190 inch pounds, and my beam-style torque

>wrench is in foot pounds. I ASSUME then, that I would divide the 160 by 12 

>to get 13.3333(etc) foot"

>

>Am I missing something here?  It is not true that the pedal bearing attach 

>bolts are AN3 or 3/16 hardware with a 3/8" head?  The torque values given 

>by Zenith  are based upon the shank size or AN number not the physical 

>size of the socket needed to torque it.  Correct?

>

>Per Drawing 6-B-9  they are AN3-5A and AN3-15A (3/16")   NOT AN6! (3/8")   

>So too, the Central Pedal Bearing bolts have special torque values since 

>they control the amount of "grip" or resistance encountered when operating 

>the pedals and are adjusted after the nose gear and rigging are installed. 

>Just snug until then.

Terry Phillips

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons 

are done; working on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:05 pm Post subject: Torque values

Hi Sabrina. It has been a few years since I worked through that part of my 801 but if I remember correctly I torqued it to the proper spec but there was a little too much drag on the pedals. Since I have a complete machine shop I set up the bearing in my milling machine and took out .0006" or so to give it a slight bit more clearance. I am guessing the 601 uses the same green Delrin material for the bearing block...?

 

As for the other question, I LOVE my 801, The V-8 Ford in it is most impressive.... Thank god for experimentals.!!!!!!!!! 

do not archive



Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



Haas International Airstrip (2WY3)

4 Miles North of Merna, Wyoming

Owner: Ben Haas



Do not confuse the airstrip with a nearby paved, lighted runway that is over 6,000 in length.

I wish I owned an International Airport!    Ben, how does your 801 fly?  What torque value would YOU recommend the for the "central pedal bearing?  



If Roger had not said this exact issue is THE NUMBER ONE problem, I would not have replied.   



Sabrina





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronic========================================================================bsp;          - MATRON================================================;       - List Contribution Web Site sp;                       &nb===================================================

 



_____________________________________________________________

Prepare for the unexpected. Click now to prepare a living trust.

   [quote][b]

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: Torque values

I might be behind the power curve here because it takes 2-4 weeks for a posting on Matronics to make it to Wyoming where I live.... I didn't see the earlier posts reguarding the torque issue. { ..  Don't get me wrong, Sabrina is on the way to a great life with her knowledge and zest. Her parents should VERY proud. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net> wrote:

--> Zenith-List message posted by: Terry Phillips <ttp44(at)rkymtn.net>



I am a bit puzzled by your reply, Ben.



This question about torque was posted a day or so ago, and there were 

several responses. But Sabrina was the only one who looked carefully at the 

issue and realized that the bolts in question were 3/16" AN3 bolts with 

3/8" hex heads (with a standard torque of 20-25 in-lbs), not 3/8" AN6 bolts 

(with a standard torque of 160-190 in-lbs). When I saw her reply this 

morning, I burst out laughing, and immediately told my wife about her post. 

There have been several replies to the original post by our older, 

experience builders addressing various aspects of the appropriate torque 

wrenches to use for 190 ft-lbs of torque. But it took a very bright 16-year 

young woman builder to point out that the underlying premise of the whole 

question was flawed.



Sabrina, I take my hat off to you. You are super. It looks to me like you 

understand not only torque, but are bright enough to realize that the wrong 

question had been asked (and answered). Well done!



Terry

At 07:05 PM 2/17/2008 +0000, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  these are pretty basic questions about torque. I read somewhere you built 

a "sabrina" motor... Didn't you learn the basics about bolt torque during 

that process???



do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com> wrote:

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris(at)msn.com>



"I am getting ready to put the cabin floor back together and I am curious

about the torque values for the 3/8" nuts/bolts. Specifically for the rudder

lateral and center bearings, rudder pedal brackets, etc. My copy of the

standard aircraft handbook says that a fine thread, 3/8" nut/bolt should

be tightened to 160 to 190 inch pounds, and my beam-style torque

wrench is in foot pounds. I ASSUME then, that I would divide the 160 by 12 

to get 13.3333(etc) foot"



Am I missing something here?  It is not true that the pedal bearing attach 

bolts are AN3 or 3/16 hardware with a 3/8" head?  The torque values given 

by Zenith  are based upon the shank size or AN number not the physical 

size of the socket needed to torque it.  Correct?



Per Drawing 6-B-9  they are AN3-5A and AN3-15A (3/16")   NOT AN6! 

(3/8")   So too, the Central Pedal Bearing bolts have special torque 

values since they control the amount of "grip" or resistance encountered 

when operating the pedals and are adjusted after the nose gear and rigging 

are installed. Just snug until then.


	




Terry Phillips

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons 

are done; working on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/  ========================bsp;      - The Zenith-List Email Forum -<========================;           &nbsp========================bsp;         - List Contrib            ========================================================



 



_____________________________________________________________

Best selection of Bibles. Click Now

   [quote][b]

txpilot

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 87
Location: Houston, TX

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Torque values

Brad,



Getting back to the original subject, page 7-301 of AC 43.13-1B shows proper torque values.  Yes, they are based on shank size, not wrench size.  I have this page posted on my workbench as I seem to refer to it almost every day.



As opposed to a torque wrench you'd find at Home Depot, I strongly recommend taking the plunge and buying a quality torque wrench.  I have one from US Tool - model TP349 and it's great.  If you're planning on installing a Rotax, You'll definitely use the metric (Newton-meter) side for your engine work.  I know it's expensive, but IMHO it is a must-have.  Here is their website:



http://www.ustool.com/



That's my two cents.



Dan Ginty

N787DG

90% complete

TP349 Torque Wrench.JPG

Description:

Filesize:

715.5 KB

Viewed:

570 Time(s)

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: Torque values

don't forget that you need a calibration check at least once a year. Before the flames start to bloom, a simple fixture with a crank arm in a bearing and a tared bucket with water in it (pure water is 1 gram/cc; 453.6 grams/pound) is a good functional check.



txpilot <djg7(at)comcast.net> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "txpilot" 



Brad,



Getting back to the original subject, page 7-301 of AC 43.13-1B shows proper torque values.  Yes, they are based on shank size, not wrench size.  I have this page posted on my workbench as I seem to refer to it almost every day.



As opposed to a torque wrench you'd find at Home Depot, I strongly recommend taking the plunge and buying a quality torque wrench.  I have one from US Tool - model TP349 and it's great.  If you're planning on installing a Rotax,    [quote][b]

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