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williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: Vg's

I liked Gene's idea of VG's on one wing. That would indeed be a control test. Cheap, too. I wouldn't volunteer even if the Firestar was flying, as I couldn't tell the difference with my limited experience. I have read up on them, but never saw anyone try it on one wing only. I think it would be safe enough, but tricky doing a normal stall landing. 

                                             Bill 

                                             FS?

 [quote][b]

biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: Vg's

In all serious-ness, I have to say, "Don't Do It."  Someone just might get the idea to give it a whirl and actually try putting vg's on one wing without thinking it thru.  This is only my personal reasoning, but I'd think that anything that might alter the flying characteristics of a wing could possibly cause a wing to stall before the other one and result in a low altitude spin.  Could well be deadly.                 Lar.

 

 william sullivan wrote: [quote]     I liked Gene's idea of VG's on one wing. That would indeed be a control test. Cheap, too. I wouldn't volunteer even if the Firestar was flying, as I couldn't tell the difference with my limited experience. I have read up on them, but never saw anyone try it on one wing only. I think it would be safe enough, but tricky doing a normal stall landing. 

                                              Bill 

                                              FS?

    	  Quote: 	
		  



 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
 -- 

Larry Bourne

Santa Fe, NM

Building Kolb Mk III

"Vamoose"

www.gogittum.com

www.gogittum.com/blog[b]

_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

beauford173(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: Vg's

...if VG's didn't work...seriously doubt that  Boeing, Airbus, Lockheed, et.al. would

 have gleefully festooned the wing and tail airfoils  of their hardware with them for

 the past three or four decades as a mere science  experiment or a joke...   whaddya think?

  

 ..just a thought...

  

 Idle Beauford

 FF-076

 Brandon Fl

  

 Do Not Archive

 [quote]   ---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:07 pm Post subject: Vg's

Beauford:

  

 I have never said VG's do not work.

  

 Simply have never found a requirement for them on  my airplanes.

  

 I can imagine those manufacturers had a requirement  for them long before they started sticking.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]    

   ...if VG's didn't work...seriously doubt that    Boeing, Airbus, Lockheed, et.al. would

   have gleefully festooned the wing and tail    airfoils of their hardware with them for

   the past three or four decades as a mere science    experiment or a joke...   whaddya think?

    

   ..just a thought...

    

   Idle Beauford

    

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

beauford173(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: Vg's

...but they LOOK so good, John....and they whistle  when ya

 go fast....     and besides...   what's good

 enough for Boeing Bullmoose is good enough for  beauford....

  

 ...count me in...

  

 Do Not Archive

  

 P.S.  What Big Lar said...!!!   Dumb as  'ol beauford may be... he

 would never recommend intentionally setting up an  asymetric

 stall-control scenario....  VG's on one wing  be mucho bad demo concept.

 If someone actually tries it, can beauford have yer  watch...? (see me offline,

 preferably prior to the attempt...)

  

 Beauford

 FF-076

  

  

 [quote]   ---

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: Vg's

If anyone out there does decide to try the VG's on one wing test, may I suggest you read the book, "Anatomy of a Spin" by John Lowery first. 



Rick

do not archive



On Feb 17, 2008 7:52 PM, beauford T <beauford173(at)verizon.net (beauford173(at)verizon.net)> wrote:

 [quote]       ...but they LOOK so good, John....and they whistle  when ya

 go fast....     and besides...   what's good

 enough for Boeing Bullmoose is good enough for  beauford....

  

 ...count me in...

  

 Do Not Archive

  

 P.S.  What Big Lar said...!!!   Dumb as  'ol beauford may be... he

 would never recommend intentionally setting up an  asymetric

 stall-control scenario....  VG's on one wing  be mucho bad demo concept.

 If someone actually tries it, can beauford have yer  watch...? (see me offline,

 preferably prior to the attempt...)

  

 Beauford

 FF-076

  

  

 [quote]   ---

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:06 pm Post subject: Re: Vg's

VG's on one wing would be VERY DANGEROUS.  I would never do a test like that.  You could easily find yourself in an uncontrollable and unrecoverable spin.  You could also find yourself in an uncontrollable roll even at normal speed as one wing could have significantly more lift than the other at a given angle of attack.   



If you want to test VG's, first fly your plane without VG's, and then put them on and record all your numbers again.  If you think you may not want the VG's permanently, put them on with double sided 3M automobile trim tape ( Not the cheap stuff ) that is what Possums and I did.  That way you can get the VG's off if you do not like them.  My results with putting VG's on were so good, I will never again fly my Kolb without them.   Of the many people that have put VG's on their Kolbs, I have never heard of anyone not liking them and taking them off, that in itself should tell you something.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

ez(at)embarqmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: Vg's

On Feb 17, 2008, at 11:50 PM, Richard Girard wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   If anyone out there does decide to try the VG's on one wing test,  

 may I suggest you read the book, "Anatomy of a Spin" by John Lowery  

 first.



 Rick


	


 >>>As for a true apples to apples VG test we need to have this  

settled once and for all by having  a well seasoned kolb pilot try  

slow flight to stall  with VG's on just one wing.  < g >  <<<

Hey guys,



Please notice what I said,



I said ,,,,,, a "well seasoned " ,,,, kolb pilot ,,,,, and please also  

notice WHO I wrote that too ; ^) ,,,,,, and please notice the ,,,,, <  

g >.



I'm sure the degree of my seriousness in that  idea was not lost on  

John, and If anybody were actually able to pull it off I'm sure it  

would be none other than John.



So if you are NOT John Hauck ,,,,,,, please DO NOT ever try my  

DANGEROUS test suggestion.

Eugene Zimmerman

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:03 am Post subject: Vg's

> So if you are NOT John Hauck ,,,,,,, please DO NOT ever try my

 	  Quote: 	
		   DANGEROUS test suggestion.

 Eugene Zimmerman


	




Gene Z:



I relinquished my "test pilot" duties some time back.



Nothing like flying something tried and true.  The old mkIII is like putting 

on an old pair of work boots.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:05 am Post subject: Vg's

At last we now have a dagger to put through the heart of SeaFoam: VGs! 



 regards,

Bob N.    FireFly 070 Old Kolb

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/

do not archive



 



 [quote][b]

beauford173(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:37 am Post subject: Vg's

....what's Seafoam.....?

  

 beauford

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Vg's

beauford173(at)verizon.ne"  	  Quote: 	
		  ....what's Seafoam.....?

  

beauford

do not archive

--- 	




..... maybe I need some VG's to go along with my Seafoam ....  



do not archive

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

David Lucas

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Europe. based Amsterdam NL

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Vg's

VG's on one wing . . . .  It's been done !



Was talking to a certain KOLB pilot one day at a fly-in and was discussing the Mklllxtra and the pro's and con's of fitting VG's when this admission came out. The resulting test stall 'maneuver' was, as he put it, 'very interesting !'



I've just checked a definition of 'maneuver'. It says  " A deliberate coordinated movement requiring dexterity and skill " Not so sure that 'maneuver' is the correct word now. Yes it was deliberate but I'm not so sure you could call the event 'coordinated' although it did, no doubt, require 'dexterity and skill' in the following recovery.



Anyway, the VG's are on both wings now that his curiosity is satisfied, and I got the distinct impression that he's not going to do that again.



If that particular KOLB pilot (who monitors and occasionally contributes to the list) wants to post some info on this but still remain anonymous   , then please contact me off list and I'll 'cut 'n paste' your reply .



David.

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Vg's

I have also gotten some private emails for information about VG's from people that want to install them, and I will respect their privacy.



The bigger issue here is that it is very sad that a small group of individuals has created such an atmosphere of intimidation, and group bashing on this list that people are now afraid to post good information on Kolbs.    I cant say I blame people for not wanting to post information that this group does not like, just look at the two nasty responses I got yesterday that were nothing more than nasty and personal attacks, and were quietly supported.



If you agree with this small " Clique " of individuals, personal attacks and nasty posts are quietly ignored and supported by this group.  If you disagree with one of the members of this small group, there is a quick negative public response by them.  There is not a standard on this list of keeping things civil, there is a standard of keeping posts civil, unless some people don't like what someone is saying, then personal attacks and nasty posts are tolerated.



The fact that people are now afraid to post good and accurate information on Kolbs here on the list speaks very poorly for this group.



Mike Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: Vg's

---

_________________
do not archive

ez(at)embarqmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: Vg's

On Feb 20, 2008, at 12:40 PM, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		     If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!


	


Hey guys



If you have not yet created an atmosphere of intimidation, and group  

bashing on this list your ego is not yet as inflated as it could be.

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Vg's on one wing only

Ohh my god......BAD VERY BAD idea to put VG's on one wing only.



That is a sure way to get someone hurt or worse!!!



What do you think would happen if one wing stalled before the other...say on the landing flair?????



Can anyone say SPIN?!!!!



Geez, there are some people who find a straight forward stall to be a problem, so for gods sake don't suggest they might survive a spin at low altitude.......Yikers!!!!!



Also, think about this.....one wing develops full lift(VG's) on takeoff before the other is even flying.....nice roll to the un-VG'd wing......maybe even all the way inverted if your not reacting fast enough.



Or how about the unequal lift causing the need for constant roll correction .....better get to the gym and work those biceps.



NO nothing good can come of VG's on one wing only!



Please don't try it!

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: Vg's

Is there a thread in the forum for making/installing the VG's?



I was wondering how they are made, how they are attatched to the Polyfiber? and where on the wing chord are they located for optimal effect?



Also interested if anyone has done an oil flow test on the wing to get a better idea of what the air is doing normally and around the VG's.



It would certainly confirm where to place the VG's if nothing else.



I suspect nobody has volunteered  to get their wing oily yet....I don't blame them.



I also know of some other type of Turbulators that can substancially improve wing performance, more aimed at gliders, however may work on a Kolb wing as well.

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: Vg's

just look at the two nasty responses I got yesterday that were nothing more than nasty and personal attacks, and were quietly supported.

 I'd say "quietly praised" in this case.

  

  

 

[quote] From: lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Vg's

 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:08:46 -0700

 

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com>

 

 

 ---

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: Vg's

Ray, ck Archives.

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