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russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: Vg's

DAVID!  PLEASE DO!!



On Feb 20, 2008, at 12:00 PM, David Lucas wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 VG's on one wing . . . .  It's been done !



 Was talking to a certain KOLB pilot one day at a fly-in and was  

 discussing the Mklllxtra and the pro's and con's of fitting VG's  

 when this admission came out. The resulting test stall 'maneuver'  

 was, as he put it, 'very interesting !'



 I've just checked a definition of 'maneuver'. It says  " A  

 deliberate coordinated movement requiring dexterity and skill " Not  

 so sure that 'maneuver' is the correct word now. Yes it was  

 deliberate but I'm not so sure you could call the event  

 'coordinated' although it did, no doubt, require 'dexterity and  

 skill' in the following recovery.



 Anyway, the VG's are on both wings now that his curiosity is  

 satisfied, and I got the distinct impression that he's not going to  

 do that again.



 If that particular KOLB pilot (who monitors and occasionally  

 contributes to the list) wants to post some info on this but still  

 remain anonymous  [Wink] , then please contact me off list and I'll  

 'cut 'n paste' your reply .



 David.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165227#165227

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: Vg's

Larry, well said. Beautifully said. I could hardly believe that that  

recent post came from  'jetpilot'

Thanks for speaking out



[quote] 

 <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com>

 ---

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: Vg's

by this time it might be reasonable to accept that vgs have some  

effect.  some mods have solely a positive

outcome, some also include a downside.  from a personal point of view  

I consider vgs to be low on my

list of priorities. my downsides include:  inertia (mine), ambition  

to do it.  More places for the birdcrap to

hide on my wing when I have the rare incentive to wash it.  no need  

for mo slow on my 1300' strip.

no desire to slow my cruise any further.  some doubt that my hefty  

mkIII would benefit as well in mph

reduction as  Larry's FS.

BB

(dog is recovering nicely)

do not archive



On 20, Feb 2008, at 2:08 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote:



[quote] 

 <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com>

 ---

smlplanet(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: Vg's

Thank you for your comment, I am one of those lurkers & learners with an open mind and make my own judgments as to what I think about an idea or suggestion. Having both a Mark III 912UL and Challenger II CWS and flying GA & UL's for 40 on and off years and heard a lot of so called guru's when it comes to flying. I use to monitor the Challenger site also up till a year or so ago. There got to be to much back biting and inflated ego's and the main intent was lost for the site which was friendship, discuss and learn from others and to help with our experiences. I find it sad that I am seeing the same thing happening on the Kolb site when there is so many on the site that has good information. I now find my self checking and deleting certain members with out reading their comments. It may be my loose but enough of the back biting and inflated ego's. How many people that really wants or needs information is turned off with this so called mature attitude. We have buried several in the past 3-4 years with the know it all and inflated ego's which has not helped per mote or expand the LSA & UL interest not to mention the publics view as a fast way to kill your self.

 We have all bent a landing leg at some time but the  worst is persons transition from GA to LSA, flaring to high.         



[quote] From: russ(at)rkiphoto.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Vg's

 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:57:01 -0500

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: Russ Kinne <russ(at)rkiphoto.com>

 

 Larry, well said. Beautifully said. I could hardly believe that that 

 recent post came from 'jetpilot'

 Thanks for speaking out

 

 > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" 

 > <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com>

 >

 >

 > ---

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: Vg's

sorry, everyone. I thought I sent that 'off-list' Obviously not. My  

apologies

On Feb 20, 2008, at 5:57 PM, Russ Kinne wrote:

[quote] 

 Larry, well said. Beautifully said. I could hardly believe that  

 that recent post came from  'jetpilot'

 Thanks for speaking out

> 

> <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com>

> ---

DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject: Vg's

In a message dated 2/20/2008 5:19:24 P.M. Central Standard Time,  russ(at)rkiphoto.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  There  

 	  Quote: 	
		  > is not on this list of keeping things civil,    there is a standard  

> of keeping posts civil, unless some    people don't like what someone  

> is saying, then personal    attacks and nasty posts are tolerated.

	

	


 

           Mike,

  

         Could you explain what You are  trying to convey, to the list, with this statement ?    I for one  don"t understand.

  

  

               Ed  FF #  62            Do Not  Archive



Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living.

  [quote][b]

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: Vg's

Geez I really thought I should stay out of this, but since I am weathered in at Tulsa tonight, I figured I might as well say something. 

folks if I have VG on one wing only, it will only make a difference at LD max on the wing. And like the fellow said if you are ready and you feel a stall just reduce your angle of attack and off you go without the grim ripper getting his quota from you. All of that doom and gloom about the VG being so dangerous is only if you fail to do what you have to do in any stall, namely reduce angle of attack. I am flying every day aircraft with VG's installed on them, and I like it. It makes for better landings. Nice to have control all the way to wheel contact on the pavement every time even if I am off a bit off on my energy management. Now I am not taking a stand on a Kolb on account that I don't know if *i* will need the Vg's seeing that the Kolb is an STOL to begin with. But then someone can say they give me more STOL so why not amplify my fun some more. I have a ways to go before I can Kolb talk about the VG's, but from the C-400 and c-300 I have flown with them on, I like it.



Ron (TxAz)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------

---- jb92563 <jb92563(at)yahoo.com> wrote: 



=============




Ohh my god......BAD VERY BAD idea to put VG's on one wing only.



That is a sure way to get someone hurt or worse!!!



What do you think would happen if one wing stalled before the other...say on the landing flair?????



Can anyone say SPIN?!!!!



Geez, there are some people who find a straight forward stall to be a problem, so for gods sake don't suggest they might survive a spin at low altitude.......Yikers!!!!!



Also, think about this.....one wing develops full lift(VG's) on takeoff before the other is even flying.....nice roll to the un-VG'd wing......maybe even all the way inverted if your not reacting fast enough.



Or how about the unequal lift causing the need for constant roll correction .....better get to the gym and work those biceps.



NO nothing good can come of VG's on one wing only!



Please don't try it!



--------

Ray



Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)

Moni MotorGlider

Schreder HP-11 Glider

Riverside County, CA



Do Not Archive





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165253#165253



--

kugelair.com

Dave Bigelow

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 103
Location: Kamuela, Hawaii

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: Re: Vg's

At the risk of beating this tired subject to death:



1.  With the "Landshorter" VG's on my Firestar, stall was reduced from somewhere in 35-40 mph range to 30 mph.  That is with a calibrated airspeed indicator with exterior static ports.  The VG's were installed exactly as suggested by the Landshorter people.



2.  Control authority and feel is much improved during slow flight right down to the stall break.  The actual stall is more pronounced with VG's than without.  Stall is abrupt without warning, much like a sailplane laminar wing stall.



3.  The Firestar floats better in ground effect with VG's than without during the landing flare.



4.  There is a slight decrease in cruise airspeed at the same power setting with VG's.



5.  I would highly recommend any low time pilot, particularly without Kolb experience, learn to fly his plane without VG's.  After installing them, climb out to a couple thousand feet above the ground and do power on and power off stalls straight ahead to get a feel for your new plane.  The VG's do change it that much.  Then do the same with 20-30 degree bank angle.  Do not get slow on approach, for if you do stall the plane, the nose drops much more radically than it does without the VG's.

_________________
Dave Bigelow
Kamuela, Hawaii
FS2, HKS 700E

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: Vg's

 	  Quote: 	
		   1.  With the "Landshorter" VG's on my Firestar, stall was reduced



 2.     Stall is abrupt without warning, much like a sailplane laminar wing 

 stall.



 3.  The Firestar floats better in ground effect with VG's than without 

 during the landing flare.

 > --------
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Dave Bigelow


	




Dave B:



I edited your post to reflect the test results I obtained from the test 

flight I made with Larry Cottrell's FSII.



Folks, I think Dave's test results more acurately relect the changes VG's 

make in a FS, and probably other Kolb models, than any other test results 

that have been posted to the Kolb List to date.



Hopefully, folks will appreciate my choice of not installing VG's on my 

mkIII.  Not because they do not work, but because I have no need for them. 

Thanks..........



john h

mkIII - The slick wing model.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

beauford

Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 127
Location: Brandon, FL

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Vg's

Although I have personally been somewhat  disappointed with the performance of the VG's on the wings of the Firefly, I have nonetheless concluded that it is possible to enhance low speed performance in the cockpit area if one takes the time to carefully test to find the optimum location for the devices...  It appears that abrupt, unexpected Kolb Drop inside the cockpit itself seems to be an often overlooked, yet recurring, problem in certain instances... Therefore, we Kolbers at Airport Manatee have initiated an aggressive engineering and test program to seek innovative solutions to Cockpit Kolb Drop in the hope that we might prevent an unnecessary tragedy.



 As in the case of the "one wing" VG testing, this could be somewhat dangerous, so it is recommended that this cockpit testing be left to the more experienced Kolbers... perhaps some of those mired deeply in "VG denial" would stand to benefit most from the research...  Volunteers?

dedicated beauford

FF-076

do not archive

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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: Vg's

all set up for inverted flight?

do not archive

On 23, Feb 2008, at 11:00 AM, beauford wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Although I have personally been somewhat  disappointed with the  

 performance of the VG's on the wings of the Firefly, I have  

 nonetheless concluded that it is possible to enhance low speed  

 performance in the cockpit area if one takes the time to carefully  

 test to find the optimum location for the devices...  It appears  

 that abrupt, unexpected Kolb Drop inside the cockpit itself seems  

 to be an often overlooked, yet recurring, problem in certain  

 instances... Therefore, we Kolbers at Airport Manatee have  

 initiated an aggressive engineering and test program to seek  

 innovative solutions to Cockpit Kolb Drop in the hope that we might  

 prevent an unnecessary tragedy.



  As in the case of the "one wing" VG testing, this could be  

 somewhat dangerous, so it is recommended that this cockpit testing  

 be left to the more experienced Kolbers... perhaps some of those  

 mired deeply in "VG denial" would stand to benefit most from the  

 research...  Volunteers?

 dedicated beauford

 FF-076

 do not archive





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165739#165739





 Attachments:



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/vg2_672.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/vgs_104.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/vg3_291.jpg

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: Vg's

> As in the case of the "one wing" VG testing, this could be somewhat 

dangerous, so it is recommended that this cockpit testing be left to the 

more experienced Kolbers... perhaps some of those mired deeply in "VG 

denial" would stand to benefit most from the research...  Volunteers?

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 dedicated beauford


	




Beauford:



About time someone come up with some original thought on the VG thingy.



Thanks for the Manatee Group's Think Tank and efforts.



BTW:  Who's the dip shit in the blue helmet.



john h -  Patiently waiting for some new developments.  Is George Alexander 

part of your Think Tank?

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: Vg's

abrupt, unexpected Kolb Drop inside the cockpit itself seems to be an often 

overlooked>>



Beautiful, Beauford,



It occurs to me that there me a connection here between Kolb Drop and 

Brewers Droop. I do not know if this malady affects those in the US but in 

the UK it is a well known phenomenen which manifests irself in a certain 

body organ and is caused by the uninhibited consumption of beer.



Just a thought



Pat

tkrolfe(at)toast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:04 am Post subject: Vg's

beauford wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Although I have personally been somewhat  disappointed with the performance of the VG's on the wings of the Firefly, I have nonetheless concluded that it is possible to enhance low speed performance in the cockpit area if one takes the time to carefully test to find the optimum location for the devices...  It appears that abrupt, unexpected Kolb Drop inside the cockpit itself seems to be an often overlooked, yet recurring, problem in certain instances... Therefore, we Kolbers at Airport Manatee have initiated an aggressive engineering and test program to seek innovative solutions to Cockpit Kolb Drop in the hope that we might prevent an unnecessary tragedy.



  As in the case of the "one wing" VG testing, this could be somewhat dangerous, so it is recommended that this cockpit testing be left to the more experienced Kolbers... perhaps some of those mired deeply in "VG denial" would stand to benefit most from the research...  Volunteers?

 dedicated beauford

 FF-076

 do not archive





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165739#165739





 Attachments: 



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/vg2_672.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/vgs_104.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/vg3_291.jpg

   

beauford,
	




You are one good old genius!!!!!   Wish I had thought of those solutions 

first.  Hat's off !!!! 



Maybe they would work on your 447 ?  Never know!!!



Terry -  FireFly #95

ez(at)embarqmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:10 am Post subject: Vg's

On Feb 23, 2008, at 1:42 PM, John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Beauford:



 About time someone come up with some original thought on the VG  

 thingy.



 Thanks for the Manatee Group's Think Tank and efforts.



 BTW:  Who's the dip shit in the blue helmet.



 john h -  Patiently waiting for some new developments.  Is George  

 Alexander part of your Think Tank?

 mkIII


	


Hey,

What I'd like to know is how those VGs  keep him  from torching his  

mic muff with that huge after burner?

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: Vg's

Pat, 

This is locally called Dunlop's Disease, wherein yer belly dun loped over yer belt. 

 regards,

Bob N.    FireFly 070 Old Kolb

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/

do not archive



 



 [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:13 pm Post subject: Vg's

wherein yer belly dun loped   >>

  

 Hi Bob, 

 it wasn`t exactly yer belly loping that I had in  mind, but close.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

 



   [quote][b]

beauford173(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: Vg's

Who's the dip shit in the blue helmet.



  Is George Alexander part of your Think Tank?



---------------

Good Sir:

Kindly restrain yourself...   your coarse language and insulting demeanor 

can serve only to wantonly degrade the level of this important scientific 

discourse...   and needlessly delay our arrival at the truth...    sigh...



The strikingly handsome (and disarmingly charming) individual in the photos 

is the daring young test pilot who has most graciously consented to bring 

his unique and extensive skill set to bear upon this daunting problem...and 

courageously conduct the required aerial test work... thus affording a 

glimmer of hope that the List will see an end to the seemingly interminable 

suffering which has enveloped us all for these many months through the 

double curse of the never ending VG and Kolb Drop strings...  Homer willing, 

we shall witness a merciful end to this suffering and live to see the 

screwdriver of reality driven squarely through the hearts of these monsters, 

that they shall trouble us here on this List no more...



I am pleased to report that the intrepid Mr. Alexander is indeed a vigorous 

and dedicated member of the dedicated team of technicians which has so 

selflessly thrown itself at this challenge...



Through the efforts of these men, and others like them, I remain confident 

that the relief most of us on the List so fervently seek is finally at 

hand... if the double stick tape holds up...



noble beauford

FF-076

do not archive

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject: Vg's

Isn't George already occupied as the keeper of the Partegas and the  

Dewar's?

do not archive



On 23, Feb 2008, at 4:00 PM, beauford T wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <beauford173(at)verizon.net>



 



  Who's the dip shit in the blue helmet.



   Is George Alexander part of your Think Tank?



 ---------------

 Good Sir:

 Kindly restrain yourself...   your coarse language and insulting  

 demeanor

 can serve only to wantonly degrade the level of this important  

 scientific

 discourse...   and needlessly delay our arrival at the truth...     

 sigh...



 The strikingly handsome (and disarmingly charming) individual in  

 the photos

 is the daring young test pilot who has most graciously consented to  

 bring

 his unique and extensive skill set to bear upon this daunting  

 problem...and

 courageously conduct the required aerial test work... thus affording a

 glimmer of hope that the List will see an end to the seemingly  

 interminable

 suffering which has enveloped us all for these many months through the

 double curse of the never ending VG and Kolb Drop strings...  Homer  

 willing,

 we shall witness a merciful end to this suffering and live to see the

 screwdriver of reality driven squarely through the hearts of these  

 monsters,

 that they shall trouble us here on this List no more...



 I am pleased to report that the intrepid Mr. Alexander is indeed a  

 vigorous

 and dedicated member of the dedicated team of technicians which has so

 selflessly thrown itself at this challenge...



 Through the efforts of these men, and others like them, I remain  

 confident

 that the relief most of us on the List so fervently seek is finally at

 hand... if the double stick tape holds up...



 noble beauford

 FF-076

 do not archive

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