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altojazz35(at)earthlink.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:25 am Post subject: Firestar Videos and VG's

Hello everyone!

  

 Normally I just read the messages posted to the  board but today I decided it was time to post a message in order to help  (hopefully) with the VG discussion.

  

 First, if you have seen the videos on YouTube that  are being discussed, I am the pilot in the videos.  (Michael Adams, age  36)  My father built a Firestar 1 back around 1990 which is where I  received my introduction to the Kolb aircraft.  He has flown many airplanes  in his 40 years of flying and to this day he will tell you hands down, the  Firestar is the best airplane he has ever flown.  After receiving my  private pilot certificate, I got a chance to fly his airplane and it was a  joy.  It wasn't long after that I got a Firestar 2 for myself.  In  fact, the private airport where we fly has a small hangar (barn) with about 12  to 14 airplanes (approx).  There have been 8 Firestars in the hangar.   It wouldn't be a stretch to say that most of the Firestars are there because  those people saw the performance of my fathers plane and just had to get a  Firestar themselves.

  

 Now, I have around 500 hours in my firestar.   This does not make me an expert but I feel I have enough experience with the  airplane to know its flying characteristics.  The Kolb is a wonderful  airplane but as with all airplanes, it has characteristics that need to be  learned.  I would also say it's very possible that one Kolb may not perform  exactly like another Kolb of the same model due to building methods, pilot  weight, etc.  With all that said, I'll tell you how my airplane  flies.  

  

 (Please read everything I'm about to say before  jumping on my case)

  

 I believe the term "Kolb Drop" is really a tendency  of not flying the airplane to it's true flight characteristics.  When the  airspeed get's slow enough or the angle of attack reaches that critical spot, a  wing will stop flying.  Now I'll admit, I've had the airplane drop on me  when I wasn't expecting it.  Was that the airplanes fault?   Nope.  I just had to learn the characteristics of the airplane.  I did  know that it wasn't my wing that was stalling but rather my  stabilizer/elevator.  Slow airspeed, cord line change, angle of attack  during landing, ground effect, all play some small role.  The solution at  the time was to land the airplane like it wanted to be landed which meant two  point landings.  To me it actually felt like I had the nose pointed up high  in the air but videos would show my tail was still up in the air.  I really  thought I had been making three points.  Two point landings were very  comfortable but three points could still be achieved if I really worked it and  kept about 3,000 rpm's on landing.  If I just landed two pointers, there  would never be a problem.  (Please remember, this was my Firestar... others  may have no problems with three points)

  

 Now for the interesting stuff.  I had been  reading about VG's and figured, it probably would do no harm to at least test  them.  Wouldn't it be great if you could take a wonderful flying airplane  and somehow make it even better?  So I bought some VG's and installed them  on the wing and stabilizer.  Before hand I had done some cruise speed  test and also side by side slow flight comparisons against my fathers Firestar  1.  He was always able to fly just a little slower than me but only by  about 2 mph.  I'll come back to that comparison in a bit.  With the  VG's on the airplane, I took off and really didn't notice anything.  I then  applied full power and pulled the stick back.  I wouldn't think a Firestar  would climb any steeper than it had before.  After all, how can one climb  quicker than a home sick angel?  Well, when you put on VG's, that angel now  has a fire under its butt and the only place to find a bucket of water is in  heaven.  I then ran some cruise tests with a GPS.  My cruise  speeds were unaffected.  The next test was slow flight against my fathers  Firestar 1.  I was now able to fly a couple a mph slower than him, but only  a few.  So far, the climb rate was the only big difference.  I also  did some stalls.  Power off felt about the same but the recovery was  quicker.  The power on stall was impressive.  The airplane didn't want  to stall.  It just wanted to mush a little and then keep flying.  Boy,  the nose was high.  The overall stall speed dropped by about 4 mph.  I  was hoping for more.  Now for the biggest difference.   Landings!!!  I kept shooting landings and with each one kept pulling more  and more back stick.  Eventually the tail wheel was rolling on the ground  way before the mains touched.  This could also be done at a throttle  setting very close to idle.  Before, the elevator would stall once you  pulled the stick back past neutral (That was one of the things I learned to  avoid when landing before - it's also amazing how little elevator  deflection is needed to flare or even climb - take some video and you'll be  surprised when you can't see any movement on the elevator -  I  digress)

  

 The airplane now has some new flying characteristic  that I had to learn.  The main thing is my landing speeds (once in ground  effect) are much slower than I could have landed before.  The elevator is  effective all the way back.  Why wouldn't anyone want to slow down their  ground speed during landing if they could?  The Kolb is one of the best  planes out there without VG"s but WOW!  With VG's... the difference cannot  be put into words.

  

 I wanted my father to see what he thought of the  VG's so he took my airplane for a flight.  He has over 800 hours in his  Firestar and has flown my airplane for many hours.  When he landed, he just  couldn't stop talking about the positive effect the VG's had on the  airplane.  He was very impressed.  So impressed that he decided to put  some on his Firestar.   He only placed them on the horizontal  stabilizer and he really didn't use that many.  (Here's is a good tip - he  purchased r/c airplane wing skids that look just like VG's that can be made or  bought.  They are very cheep but are a little thicker than VG's that can be  purchased)  He was amazed at the difference it made to his landing speeds  and flare.  It's really one of those things that has to be  experienced.  We then did the side by side slow flight comparison and  he was now flying at my speed.  I believe if he added them to the wings he  might be able to fly a tiny bit slower, but probably not enough to make a huge  difference.  The big difference is the stabilizer.  If you can keep it  flying (applying downward force) at a slower airspeed, you can keep the nose the  airplane up and slow down.

  

 So, here is my brief summary.

  

 The "Kolb Drop" is a result of the pilot not flying  the airplane like it should be in it's current configuration.  I did it  until I learned better.

  

 VG's added to the stabilizer made a tremendous  difference.

  

 The Kolb Firestar is a wonderful airplane just as  it is.  It's hard to believe but it can be better with VG's.  VG's  would probably improve any airplane when properly installed.

  

 For those of you that don't have a Firestar (or  other Kolb aircraft), get one.

  

 For those of you that already have one of the  wonderful airplanes from the Kolb company, place some VG's on your stabilizer.  (and wing if you really want)

  

 About the videos.  Most of the flying in the  Firestar 1 and 2 video is without VG's.  All of the other videos show the  airplane with VG's.

  

 Long live KOLB!!!

   [quote][b]

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:37 am Post subject: Firestar Videos and VG's

At 04:22 AM 2/23/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hello everyone!

  

 Normally I just read the messages posted to the board but today I decided it was time to post a message in order to help (hopefully) with the VG discussion.

 	




 What he said -------ditto:



 



   It's amazing how far I can stick the nose up without 

  the plane stalling.



  I'm not trying to beat this to death, but there are very few things that 

  you can do to your plane that (1) doesn't do anything at all for the performance - after 

  spending lots of time and money or (2) actually degrades the performance of what you

  were trying to do anyway. I've spent lots of $ for nothing several times.



  I was just surprised at what these little things would actually do for the 

  amount of time and money invested. And like Jeremy says it's not just that you can fly slower, 

  it's "how well" you can fly slower. I fly my plane slow - a lot. 



  On a cross country trip, maybe you won't need them at all, but they

  sure are fun to play with around the patch. I'm sure the buzzards & the geese

  are glad I have them too.



 



 



 

      [quote][b]

_________________
Possum

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: Firestar Videos and VG's

Morning Michael:

  

 Thanks for the report and the video  clips.

  

 Where are you all located?

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]    

   First, if you have seen the videos on YouTube    that are being discussed, I am the pilot in the videos.  (Michael Adams,    age 36)   

    

   Long live KOLB!!!

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 	
[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's

Michael,



Thanks for the great report. Several years ago when I had a FS 1, I made and installed VGs on the wing and got a few mph drop in stall speed but the stall was sudden w/ VGs when it was more gentle w/o wing VGs. I never considered adding them to the underside of the HS.



I now have a different and good bit heavier FS 1 that is under repair and won't be flying again until summer. It flies somewhat differently from the first lighter one. My current FS 1 seems to be limited by pitch control when landing, much like you described. Once I get all the repairs done and it is flying again, as before, my first addition will be VGs on the underside of the HS.



Thanks again for your excellent report.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

gbthacker(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:38 am Post subject: Firestar Videos and VG's

Can someone post the video clips again?  Somehow they got away from me before I got a chance to see them.  Thanks



Gary



Souderton,Pa.



  	  Quote: 	
		    From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's

Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 07:55:03 -0600



     Morning Michael:

  

 Thanks for the report and the video clips.

  

 Where are you all located?

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

  	  Quote: 	
		    

 First, if you have seen the videos on YouTube that are being discussed, I am the pilot in the videos.  (Michael Adams, age 36)   

  

 Long live KOLB!!!

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 	




get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

p://forums.matronics.com

blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	
Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your "fix". Check it out.  [quote][b]

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: Firestar Videos and VG's

At 09:21 AM 2/23/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Once I get all the repairs done and it is flying again, as before, 

my first addition will be VGs on the underside of the HS.



Thanks again for your excellent report.


	


Don't forget when you order from www.landshorter.com

to put "Possums" in the promo code.



Remember ..... you've got a friend in the VG business.



do not archive

_________________
Possum

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:52 am Post subject: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's

The videos are at



http://tinyurl.com/349uxp

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:58 am Post subject: Firestar Videos and VG's

Gary and the rest of you'ze guys,



  Just go to The New Kolb website, click on Firestar II, then click on "videos".



  These are inspirational to any Kolb wannabe, no doubt!!



Mike Welch

MkIII Cx

________________________________



From: gbthacker(at)hotmail.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's

Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 09:35:42 -0500





Can someone post the video clips again?  Somehow they got away from me before I got a chance to see them.  Thanks



Gary



Souderton,Pa.



________________________________



From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's

Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 07:55:03 -0600





Morning Michael:



Thanks for the report and the video clips.



Where are you all located?



john h



mkIII

First, if you have seen the videos on YouTube that are being discussed, I am the pilot in the videos.  (Michael Adams, age 36)



Long live KOLB!!!





get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

p://forums.matronics.com

blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



________________________________



Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your "fix". Check it out.





_________________________________________________________________

Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!

http://biggestloser.msn.com/

gbthacker(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:13 am Post subject: Firestar Videos and VG's

Thanks guys



Gary



Souderton,Pa.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's

 From: riddletr(at)gmail.com

 Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 06:52:59 -0800

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>

 

 The videos are at

 

 http://tinyurl.com/349uxp

 

 --------

 Thom Riddle

 N221FA Allegro 2000 912UL

 N197BG FS1/447

 --------------------

 Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.

 - Buddha

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165712#165712

 

 

 

 

&gt
	


[quote] 

 

 

Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. Play now!   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

customersupport(at)tnkolb
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:19 am Post subject: Firestar Videos and VG's

MICHAEL, THANKS FOR YOUR WISDOM ABOUT KOLB AIRCRAFT  AND  A GREAT AIRPLANE IT IS . WHAT YOU POSTED WILL HELP A LOT OF KOLB  PEOPLE  UNDERSTAND OUR PRODUCT.   THANKS FOR THE KIND  WORDS.   DONNIE  AT KOLB KOLB AIRCRAFT.  Original  Message ----- 

 [quote]   From:    Michael Adams (altojazz35(at)earthlink.net) 

   To: Kolb-List(at)matronics.com (Kolb-List(at)matronics.com) 

   Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 4:22    AM

   Subject: Re: Firestar Videos    and VG's

   Hello everyone!

   Normally I just read the messages posted to the    board but today I decided it was time to post a message in order to help    (hopefully) with the VG discussion.

   First, if you have seen the videos on YouTube    that are being discussed, I am the pilot in the videos.  (Michael Adams,    age 36)  My father built a Firestar 1 back around 1990 which is where I    received my introduction to the Kolb aircraft.  He has flown many    airplanes in his 40 years of flying and to this day he will tell you hands    down, the Firestar is the best airplane he has ever flown.  After    receiving my private pilot certificate, I got a chance to fly his airplane and    it was a joy.  It wasn't long after that I got a Firestar 2 for    myself.  In fact, the private airport where we fly has a small hangar    (barn) with about 12 to 14 airplanes (approx).  There have been 8    Firestars in the hangar.  It wouldn't be a stretch to say that most of    the Firestars are there because those people saw the performance of my fathers    plane and just had to get a Firestar themselves.

   Now, I have around 500 hours in my    firestar.  This does not make me an expert but I feel I have enough    experience with the airplane to know its flying characteristics.  The    Kolb is a wonderful airplane but as with all airplanes, it has    characteristics that need to be learned.  I would also say it's very    possible that one Kolb may not perform exactly like another Kolb of the same    model due to building methods, pilot weight, etc.  With all that said,    I'll tell you how my airplane flies.  

   (Please read everything I'm about to say before    jumping on my case)

   I believe the term "Kolb Drop" is really a    tendency of not flying the airplane to it's true flight characteristics.     When the airspeed get's slow enough or the angle of attack reaches that    critical spot, a wing will stop flying.  Now I'll admit, I've had the    airplane drop on me when I wasn't expecting it.  Was that the airplanes    fault?  Nope.  I just had to learn the characteristics of the    airplane.  I did know that it wasn't my wing that was stalling but rather    my stabilizer/elevator.  Slow airspeed, cord line change, angle of attack    during landing, ground effect, all play some small role.  The solution at    the time was to land the airplane like it wanted to be landed which meant two    point landings.  To me it actually felt like I had the nose pointed up    high in the air but videos would show my tail was still up in the air.  I    really thought I had been making three points.  Two point landings were    very comfortable but three points could still be achieved if I really worked    it and kept about 3,000 rpm's on landing.  If I just landed two pointers,    there would never be a problem.  (Please remember, this was my    Firestar... others may have no problems with three points)

   Now for the interesting stuff.  I had been    reading about VG's and figured, it probably would do no harm to at least test    them.  Wouldn't it be great if you could take a wonderful flying airplane    and somehow make it even better?  So I bought some VG's and installed    them on the wing and stabilizer.  Before hand I had done some cruise    speed test and also side by side slow flight comparisons against my fathers    Firestar 1.  He was always able to fly just a little slower than me but    only by about 2 mph.  I'll come back to that comparison in a bit.     With the VG's on the airplane, I took off and really didn't notice    anything.  I then applied full power and pulled the stick back.  I    wouldn't think a Firestar would climb any steeper than it had before.     After all, how can one climb quicker than a home sick angel?  Well, when    you put on VG's, that angel now has a fire under its butt and the only place    to find a bucket of water is in heaven.  I then ran some cruise    tests with a GPS.  My cruise speeds were unaffected.  The next test    was slow flight against my fathers Firestar 1.  I was now able to fly a    couple a mph slower than him, but only a few.  So far, the climb rate was    the only big difference.  I also did some stalls.  Power off felt    about the same but the recovery was quicker.  The power on stall was    impressive.  The airplane didn't want to stall.  It just wanted to    mush a little and then keep flying.  Boy, the nose was high.  The    overall stall speed dropped by about 4 mph.  I was hoping for more.     Now for the biggest difference.  Landings!!!  I kept shooting    landings and with each one kept pulling more and more back stick.     Eventually the tail wheel was rolling on the ground way before the mains    touched.  This could also be done at a throttle setting very close to    idle.  Before, the elevator would stall once you pulled the stick back    past neutral (That was one of the things I learned to avoid when    landing before - it's also amazing how little elevator deflection is needed to    flare or even climb - take some video and you'll be surprised when you can't    see any movement on the elevator -  I digress)

   The airplane now has some new flying    characteristic that I had to learn.  The main thing is my landing speeds    (once in ground effect) are much slower than I could have landed before.     The elevator is effective all the way back.  Why wouldn't anyone want to    slow down their ground speed during landing if they could?  The Kolb is    one of the best planes out there without VG"s but WOW!  With VG's... the    difference cannot be put into words.

   I wanted my father to see what he thought of the    VG's so he took my airplane for a flight.  He has over 800 hours in his    Firestar and has flown my airplane for many hours.  When he landed, he    just couldn't stop talking about the positive effect the VG's had on the    airplane.  He was very impressed.  So impressed that he decided to    put some on his Firestar.   He only placed them on the horizontal    stabilizer and he really didn't use that many.  (Here's is a good tip -    he purchased r/c airplane wing skids that look just like VG's that can be made    or bought.  They are very cheep but are a little thicker than VG's that    can be purchased)  He was amazed at the difference it made to his landing    speeds and flare.  It's really one of those things that has to be    experienced.  We then did the side by side slow flight comparison    and he was now flying at my speed.  I believe if he added them to the    wings he might be able to fly a tiny bit slower, but probably not enough to    make a huge difference.  The big difference is the stabilizer.  If    you can keep it flying (applying downward force) at a slower airspeed, you can    keep the nose the airplane up and slow down.

   So, here is my brief summary.

   The "Kolb Drop" is a result of the pilot not    flying the airplane like it should be in it's current configuration.  I    did it until I learned better.

   VG's added to the stabilizer made a tremendous    difference.

   The Kolb Firestar is a wonderful airplane just as    it is.  It's hard to believe but it can be better with VG's.  VG's    would probably improve any airplane when properly installed.

   For those of you that don't have a Firestar (or    other Kolb aircraft), get one.

   For those of you that already have one of the    wonderful airplanes from the Kolb company, place some VG's on your stabilizer.    (and wing if you really want)

   About the videos.  Most of the flying in the    Firestar 1 and 2 video is without VG's.  All of the other videos show the    airplane with VG's.

   Long live KOLB!!!

 	  Quote: 	

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

R. Hankins

Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 185
Location: Grants Pass, Oregon

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's

 	  Quote: 	
		   I would also say it's very possible that one Kolb may not perform exactly like another Kolb of the same model due to building methods, pilot weight, etc....



 Eventually the tail wheel was rolling on the ground way before the mains touched....



 The power on stall was impressive. The airplane didn't want to stall. It just wanted to mush a little and then keep flying. 	




Michael,

You did a great job of describing the characteristics of my KXP.  I can drag the tail wheel on landing, hold the stick all the way back and not lose elevator control, and do full power, full back stick mushes with only a stall buffet.  I do all of these with no VGs.  



I installed VGs a couple of years ago, but removed them because of the sharpness of power-off stalls.  I can drag the tail on landing without them.  With the VGs the tail would touch while the mains were still a good foot and a half in the air.  The mains would then plop down a little harder then I wanted.  If I ever get around to adding longer gear legs, I will try them again.  



Thanks for the great videos and information.

_________________
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C

apilot(at)surewest.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: Firestar Videos and VG's

where does one place the vg's on the horiz stab?

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: Firestar Videos and VG's

At 08:38 PM 2/26/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: <apilot(at)surewest.net>



 where does one place the vg's on the horiz stab? 	
  http://www.landshorter.com/page4.html



 If you decide to use them on the underside of your horizontal stabilizer to improve 

 your flare then you will place them about 1" apart and just in front of the elevator. 

     [quote][b]

_________________
Possum

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: Firestar Videos and VG's

I am guessing the VG's were  just a smidgen too far aft. They were grabbing energized air but barely.  I would just for grins place them about .25 inch further forward to see what happens.



Ron (Txaz)

==============================

---- "R. Hankins" <rphanks(at)grantspass.com> wrote: 



=============


 	  Quote: 	
		    I would also say it's very possible that one Kolb may not perform exactly like another Kolb of the same model due to building methods, pilot weight, etc....

 

  Eventually the tail wheel was rolling on the ground way before the mains touched....

 

  The power on stall was impressive. The airplane didn't want to stall. It just wanted to mush a little and then keep flying.


	




Michael,

You did a great job of describing the characteristics of my KXP.  I can drag the tail wheel on landing, hold the stick all the way back and not lose elevator control, and do full power, full back stick mushes with only a stall buffet.  I do all of these with no VGs.  



I installed VGs a couple of years ago, but removed them because of the sharpness of power-off stalls.  I can drag the tail on landing without them.  With the VGs the tail would touch while the mains were still a good foot and a half in the air.  The mains would then plop down a little harder then I wanted.  If I ever get around to adding longer gear legs, I will try them again.  



Thanks for the great videos and information.



--------

Roger in Oregon

1992 KXP 503 - N1782C





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=166135#166135



--

kugelair.com

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's

One thing that those considering putting VG's on thier planes really need to know is that the size, shape and EXACT placement of the vortex generators is CRITICAL.  Like most things in flying, a very small change can make a very big difference.  Using RC wing skids, or peices of aluminum for making VG's might work, but it might make the difference between something that just helps some, and something that makes a huge improvement in performance.   If you want the full benefits and maximum performance from VG's, use the www.landshorter.com VG's that have been tested and optimized for size and shape, and follow the placement instructions exactly.



My experience, this report, and many others like it are the reason that I posted on the benefits of VG's.   For those few that were just last week telling everyone that VG's were not needed if you just flew the plane correctly, and that the Kolb drop should be tolerated instead of corrected,  your statements and arguements are now sounding kind of weak....   Its not as much gun to gang up on several guys reporting the same facts and flight tests as it is to gang up and try to discredit one is it ?   A few guys dug in so firmly on a wrong position and then tried to save face, that several tried silence and discredit good informatin.  Bottom line, those that put thier own egos and group politics above the truth did a real disservice to those that would like to improve the flying charastics of their Kolbs.  



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: Firestar Videos and VG's

Bottom.



Ron (Txaz)



===============================

---- apilot(at)surewest.net wrote: 



=============




where does one place the vg's on the horiz stab?



--

kugelair.com

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:16 am Post subject: Firestar Videos and VG's

Mike,



It would seem obvious that from all of the first hand reports of List 

members who have made their own VG's that placement on a thick wing is not 

that critical.  Some were placed on the rib, and others between the ribs.  

Some were placed in a straight line and others were placed in split lines.  

None of these people reported that they were going to take them off.  This 

leads one to the conclusion that home made VG's must be effective.



The advantage of the trapezoidal VG design is that they can be held in place 

temporarily by black electricians tape.  This makes it very easy to move the 

VG line forward and backward to find the sweet spot.  Performance value is 

easily checked by teasing your aircraft off the ground into ground effect 

while watching the ASI to see at what speed the wheels break the ground.  

This can be followed by performing power off stalls.



I am sure that Landshorter VG's are very effective, but you can save about 

$80 -> $90 by making your own.



Like most things, whether to install VG's or not is, a personal decision.  

In my case I tried them and I will never take them off.  



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN



do not archive



At 07:55 PM 2/26/08 -0800, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



One thing that those considering putting VG's on thier planes really need to know is that the size, shape and EXACT placement of the vortex generators is CRITICAL.  Like most things in flying, a very small change can make a very big difference.  Using RC wing skids, or peices of aluminum for making VG's might work, but it might make the difference between something that just helps some, and something that makes a huge improvement in performance.   If you want the full benefits and maximum performance from VG's, use the www.landshorter.com VG's that have been tested and optimized for size and shape, and follow the placement instructions exactly.



My experience, this report, and many others like it are the reason that I posted on the benefits of VG's.   For those few that were just last week telling everyone that VG's were not needed if you just flew the plane correctly, and that the Kolb drop should be tolerated instead of corrected,  your statements and arguements are now sounding kind of weak....   Its not as much gun to gang up on several guys reporting the same facts and flight tests as it is to gang up and try to discredit one is it ?   A few guys dug in so firmly on a wrong position and then tried to save face, that several tried silence and discredit good informatin.  Bottom line, those that put thier own egos and group politics above the truth did a real disservice to those that would like to improve the flying charastics of their Kolbs.  



Mike



--------

&quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!



Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=166510#166510

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: Firestar Videos and VG's

There is one consideration to be made concerning VGs.

For fair weather flyers the lowered stall speed is good but sometimes

during landings in gusty air a higher stall speed will make life easier.

I had one scary landing at a flyin last summer ( What a waste, poor  

turnout)

with a big balloon-up just at touchdown sending me 20' back up.

I got lucky and greased it on with power the second swoop.  I stuck  

with it though

and didn't bother with a needless go around.  Next time I encounter that

kind of situation I will skip the flaps.

BB



On 27, Feb 2008, at 9:20 AM, Jack B. Hart wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>



 Mike,



 It would seem obvious that from all of the first hand reports of List

 members who have made their own VG's that placement on a thick wing  

 is not

 that critical.  Some were placed on the rib, and others between the  

 ribs.

 Some were placed in a straight line and others were placed in split  

 lines.

 None of these people reported that they were going to take them  

 off.  This

 leads one to the conclusion that home made VG's must be effective.



 The advantage of the trapezoidal VG design is that they can be held  

 in place

 temporarily by black electricians tape.  This makes it very easy to  

 move the

 VG line forward and backward to find the sweet spot.  Performance  

 value is

 easily checked by teasing your aircraft off the ground into ground  

 effect

 while watching the ASI to see at what speed the wheels break the  

 ground.

 This can be followed by performing power off stalls.



 I am sure that Landshorter VG's are very effective, but you can  

 save about

 $80 -> $90 by making your own.



 Like most things, whether to install VG's or not is, a personal  

 decision.

 In my case I tried them and I will never take them off.



 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN



 do not archive



 At 07:55 PM 2/26/08 -0800, you wrote:

> 

>

> One thing that those considering putting VG's on thier planes  

> really need to know is that the size, shape and EXACT placement of  

> the vortex generators is CRITICAL.  Like most things in flying, a  

> very small change can make a very big difference.  Using RC wing  

> skids, or peices of aluminum for making VG's might work, but it  

> might make the difference between something that just helps some,  

> and something that makes a huge improvement in performance.   If  

> you want the full benefits and maximum performance from VG's, use  

> the www.landshorter.com VG's that have been tested and optimized  

> for size and shape, and follow the placement instructions exactly.

>

> My experience, this report, and many others like it are the reason  

> that I posted on the benefits of VG's.   For those few that were  

> just last week telling everyone that VG's were not needed if you  

> just flew the plane correctly, and that the Kolb drop should be  

> tolerated instead of corrected,  your statements and arguements  

> are now sounding kind of weak....   Its not as much gun to gang up  

> on several guys reporting the same facts and flight tests as it is  

> to gang up and try to discredit one is it ?   A few guys dug in so  

> firmly on a wrong position and then tried to save face, that  

> several tried silence and discredit good informatin.  Bottom line,  

> those that put thier own egos and group politics above the truth  

> did a real disservice to those that would like to improve the  

> flying charastics of their Kolbs.

>

> Mike

>

> --------

> &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast  

> as you could have !!!

>

> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=166510#166510

>

>

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: Re: Firestar Videos and VG's

Jack,



There is plenty of evidence to show that home made VG's work, I'm just not sure you are getting the full benefit as you would with landshorter VG's.   The only way to know that would be to flight test the difference between home made designs and the landshorter design, which would be a huge amount of work.   Joel who owns www.landshorter.com says he has tested the size, and shape of different VG's in a wind tunnel, and optimized his for small experimental sized aircraft.   Landshorter VG's can be attached with double sided automobile trim tape, and moved at will, or taken off if you don't like them, Possums came up with this idea and my VG's have been on my plane with double sided tape almost a year now, I have not lost any.  Position of VG's is critical to get the desired results, the landshorter VG's specify exact positions, and even on VG kits for certified aircraft, they come with a large template and instructions for exact positioning... So its very clearly important.   Attached is a picture of my VG's.



I have spoken to Joel at landshorter several times on the phone, and he is a great guy that is very technically competent.  Joel is an aerodynamics engineer and sells the VG's on the side.  There is not much profit in selling 100 lexan VG's for 100 bucks, its not a big market.  Given the time Joel spends on support and answering questions, his motivation is clearly to help aviation the community more than to just make a couple bucks.  



Mike

UltralightKolbMikezVGsFloridaHomestead07-11-2007-176.JPG

Description:

www.lanshorter.com VG's on Kolb

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257.31 KB

Viewed:

505 Time(s)

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

ez(at)embarqmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: Firestar Videos and VG's

On Feb 27, 2008, at 9:20 AM, Jack B. Hart wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I am sure that Landshorter VG's are very effective, but you can save about 

$80 -> $90 by making your own. 	




Yep, 

Here is what i did.



Get a couple of 4 foot lexan ell corner protectors from the paint and wall paper section of your local home improvement place and cut them to make your own VGs.



http://picasaweb.google.com/imhisson2/VortexGenerators



Cheap Squeek Gene,



 [quote][b]

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