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blalmarz(at)embarqmail.co
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 Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:49 am Post subject: Shoulder Harness Hardpoint |
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I am wondering if the hard-point for the shoulder harness connection
needs to be reinforced or have a washer added on top, so it will work
when needed. Any thoughts?
Barry Marz
18735 Baseleg AVE.
FT. Myers, Fl 33917
239-567-2271
blalmarz(at)embarqmail.com
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msausen
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:25 am Post subject: Shoulder Harness Hardpoint |
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I talked to my TC a while back about this subject and while he isn't a composite guy, he thought that it made more sense to make the hardpoint on the exterior or the cabin top. I planned to look into it more once I got to that point but this seems to be a good time to discuss.
So what do the composite guys like Gary and Dave think? In adding a hard point for seatbelts to the canopy should it be from the inside or outside?
Michael
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rv(at)thelefflers.com
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: Shoulder Harness Hardpoint |
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If I recall what Dave Saylor did to his, when I took the class last month, I
believe that he drilled about 1.5"-2.0" core from the inside, then filled
with flox. Basically duplicating how the front belt attach points are
constructed.
Was your TC recommending you put a plate on top of the canopy?
bob
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msausen
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: Shoulder Harness Hardpoint |
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The flox method is fairly common and the easiest way to go. The question is, do you drill it out from the outside or from the inside as most have done. Seems that you would retain more of the inherent strength of the structure against a pull out if it was done from the exterior.
Michael
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speckter(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: Shoulder Harness Hardpoint |
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I think that we are missing the engineering that went into the design of the
hard point built into the current structure. Typically the foam is removed
in the area around the hole and filled with reinforcing material like
chopped fiber or flox. This is the same thing that the Glasair folks do.
This structure is sufficient to hold the shoulder harness.
Additionally, fiberglass structures are meant to flex long before they
break. Remember the wing on the Voyager during take off. By putting a
metal washer on the outside of the structure you are creating a failure
point at the outer edge. Think of it like this. If you took a one foot
long tube and slid it over your fiberglass/graphite fishing rod and flexed
it close to the failure point, it would fail prematurely at the end of the
tube because it was not allowed to flex inside the tube.
IMHO no additional structure is needed for the harness.
Gary
40274
It is all together, now what?
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coop85(at)cableone.net
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: Shoulder Harness Hardpoint |
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FWIW I agree with Gary 100%. The area is already beefed up and if I
remember correctly the points were solid glass with no foam. I was starting
to wonder if folks were talking about additional points for a different
harness system. Provided that's not the case, I think the structure is good
to go as is.
Marcus
40286
Just about to hit 250 hours and loving it.
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wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: Shoulder Harness Hardpoint |
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The flox method may be common and while it is stronger than epoxy alone, if you read section 49, the Seats & Seat Belt section of the plans, the seat-belt hard-points are NOT filled with flox. According to page 49-02 "These hard points are a solid lay-up of glass (they contain no core material), and appear lighter than the surrounding area." If you want to make additional hard-points, to duplicate the hard-points for the front seats you should use lay-up of fiberglass NOT flox.
I will be putting 3 Point harness in the rear and will use a Dremel to remove the core material and to then rebuild with layers of fiberglass.
William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."
-- Dr. Suess
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msausen
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:23 am Post subject: Shoulder Harness Hardpoint |
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Yep, we are talking about adding additional hardpoints in the rear just forward of the rear bulkhead cover to support a different mounting point for the rear seat belts.
In my caser the reason for not using the factory location back in the tailcone is twofold. The first reason is because I will probably be using David's Amsafe or similar retractable belts for at least the rear seat passengers. The second is my hat shelf project eliminated the ability to run back to the longeron points.
So just so we are clear, we are not talking about the factory hardpoint in the top, we are talking about ADDING harpoints. You can see David's approach at the link below. I believe he worked with some pretty smart guys in developing his method so my question is more to help me understand the rationale behind doing the work on the inside rather than the outside.
http://www.inertialbelts.com/
Michael
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speckter(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: Shoulder Harness Hardpoint |
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The approach David used looks sound to me. I think that he worked on the
inside because it is more forgiving of the additional layers of glass he
used to cover the hard points. The head liner will not show those
additional layers he used to connect all the hard points.
Gary
40274
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