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Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

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jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

What did this guy do wrong on landing his UltraStar to cause gear collapse?



Review this short video clip:

http://www.youtube.com/v/0hqEBYcFp4k



I think he might have been going a little fast and high and chopped to much power and came down hard.



Seems like the "Fly it On" technique is the way to go instead of trying to force it down without sufficient speed or power.

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

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Steve Garvelink

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 15
Location: HIXSON, TN

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

Seems like the Woman in the video made it happen through creative negative thinking!  She just knew it would happen.  To me it seems that the landing gear was week because the landing didnt seem to be that ruff nor did it seem like he stalled in in.  



Steve

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

 	  Quote: 	
		   What did this guy do wrong on landing his UltraStar to cause gear collapse?

 --------

 Ray


	




Ray,



  I can't figure this one out!!  I have watched that video at least 10 times, one right after another, and I still can't figure out why he lost a gear leg.



   He appeared to have PLENTY of airspeed.  Although it appeared he was a little high in his flare, I still think he could have just bounced a little.  



  In my opinion, either he hit in a little pothole, or his landing gear leg assembly was defective.  I do know that some of the early UltraStar kits were "weld it yourself".  I know a guy that got one of those "weld your own's".  It was disgustingly poorly built.  Even the wings were horribly put together.  This particular UltraStar undoubedly would have crashed IF it was ever finished.  Thank God, this person never finished it, and it was abandoned to rot.



  My friend, Frank Reed, in Hayden, Idaho, a true and genuine craftsman, rebuild this mess, and staightened the whole plane out!!  My guess is, the video UltraStar might be one of those planes that should have NEVER been flown.  



  I think people like John H., and others that have UltraStar flight time, may have a better analysis of what went wrong.



Mike Welch



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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

> Seems like the "Fly it On" technique is the way to go instead of trying 

to force it down without sufficient speed or power.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 --------

 Ray


	




Ray:



I agree with you to a point.



Without sufficient flying speed, one does not have to try to force it down. 

It does that all by its self.  Seemd the pilot stalled the aircraft high.



john h

mkIII

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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

At 03:24 PM 3/6/2008, jb92563 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



What did this guy do wrong on landing his UltraStar to cause gear collapse?



Review this short video clip:

[URL]http://www.youtube.com/v/0hqEBYcFp4k" 

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" 

height="355"[/URL]



I think he might have been going a little fast and high and chopped to 

much power and came down hard.



Seems like the "Fly it On" technique is the way to go instead of trying to 

force it down without sufficient speed or power.


	


"Kolb Quit."



But seriously, he slowed it up too much, too high, and dropped it 

in.  Common ultralight newby error.



-Dana

--

  "Gold cannot always get you good soldiers, but good soldiers can always 

get you gold"-- Niccolo Machiavelli

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

That's It, That's the Kolb drop on film! Do you realize the significance of getting the elusive Kolb drop on film?! Wow.



  [quote][b]

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

Dave,



  You've got me laughing MAO..  Now, THAT was funny!!!



Mike Welch





________________________________



From: dhkey(at)msn.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 19:35:44 -0600





That's It, That's the Kolb drop on film! Do you realize the significance of getting the elusive Kolb drop on film?! Wow.



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Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:01 pm Post subject: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

Don't pay too much attention to this post, as I've never even piloted  

a Kolb -- but it sure looks to me as though the TAIL stalled, and  

caused a  sudden nose pitch-down. Which ANY aircraft can and will do  

when it's slowed down too much.

Very bad if it's too near the ground.

Feel the aircraft out AT ALTITUDE. Fly safe!



On Mar 6, 2008, at 8:27 PM, Dana Hague wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 At 03:24 PM 3/6/2008, jb92563 wrote:

> 

>

> What did this guy do wrong on landing his UltraStar to cause gear  

> collapse?

>

> Review this short video clip:

> [URL]http://www.youtube.com/v/0hqEBYcFp4k" type="application/x- 

> shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"[/URL]

>

> I think he might have been going a little fast and high and  

> chopped to much power and came down hard.

>

> Seems like the "Fly it On" technique is the way to go instead of  

> trying to force it down without sufficient speed or power.



 "Kolb Quit."



 But seriously, he slowed it up too much, too high, and dropped it  

 in.  Common ultralight newby error.



 -Dana

 --

  "Gold cannot always get you good soldiers, but good soldiers can  

 always get you gold"-- Niccolo Machiavelli

George Alexander

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Location: SW Florida

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

 	  jb92563 wrote: 	
		  What did this guy do wrong on landing his UltraStar to cause gear collapse?



	




Too many previous hard landings and/or a bungee gave way?????



Just an opinion ma'am.... not necessarily the facts.

_________________
George Alexander
FS II R503
E-LSA N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

Should have been able to take that little drop.  A part must have  

been ready to fail.

I've dropped my (600 lb empty) MkIII lots of times at least that hard  

with no damage.

-tis a stout bird.

BB

On 6, Mar 2008, at 6:44 PM, John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 > Seems like the "Fly it On" technique is the way to go instead of  

 trying to force it down without sufficient speed or power.

>

> --------

> Ray

 Ray:

 I agree with you to a point.

 Without sufficient flying speed, one does not have to try to force  

 it down. It does that all by its self.  Seemd the pilot stalled the  

 aircraft high.

 john h

 mkIII

John Bickham

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 170
Location: St. Francisville, LA

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:29 am Post subject: Re: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

I checked the original post on YouTube.  The following are quotes from the person that posted the video.  Best first-hand information that I can find to make a guess at what really happened and even this might not be the true facts.



From what I surmise is a faulty repair was made and lack of good training and mentoring.  The last quote implies that the gear failed on taxi tests.  He then continued and got airborne unexpectedly.  Hate the term Kolb drop.  We fly a low inertia, draggy airplane and have to be aware of that, then it gets easy. This is what allows a Kolb to land and takeoff places that very few other planes can even attempt.  Why I got one!  Saved my butt in an hayfield in Texas!



 	  Quote: 	
		  nope landing gear failed 	




 	  Quote: 	
		  1st time he flew the plane and he did not tell anyone. my uncle gave him heck(the big guy running) he had never flown anything in his life before(which was not too smart). 	


 	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks on all the comments every on(except from twitch15 which his name explains it all)

it was my stepdad flying and he is perfectly alright, he got the ultrastar back together bue he did not build it strong enough, the first time he was out the landing gear slowly folded while doing a mid-speed taxi

_________________
Thanks too much,

John Bickham
Mark III-C w/ 912UL
St. Francisville, LA

I know many pilots and a few true aviators. There is a distinct difference that I have the greatest respect for.

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

 	  Quote: 	
		  > nope landing gear failed


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  > 1st time he flew the plane and he did not tell anyone. my uncle gave him heck(the big guy running) he had never flown anything in his life before(which was not too smart).


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   John Bickham


	


  John B., Ray, and others,



  That's what I thought, too, as did Bob B.  Both of the ingredients of a guaranteed failure; lousy construction of an aircraft, and an untrained goofball.  He is lucky he lived to tell about it.  I hope he got proper instruction, if he continued to fly.



  This makes me wonder about the UltraStar frame you have, Ray.  As I said, I know of an UltraStar frame that was assembled with rotten quality control.  I have NO doubt that this plane would likely have crashed, if it were ever finished and flown.



  Ray, how certain are you that the frame you have is "good, and of aircraft quality"?  Have you, or a professional welder, done a thorough inspection to make sure the frame is as solid as you think it is?



  I recently heard a comment from an FAA Crash Inspector say, "a catastophic crash is never a spontaneous action, but rather, it is a culmenation of a series of events and decisions that lead up to the crash." (or words to that effect)



  Having crashed just like this moron (yes, I was stupid, stupid, stupid!!!, and even worse, I have it on film!!), I have learned not to assume as much as I used to.  "Now", I rely on training, and better quality control.  It was an expensive lesson, but I believe I learned from it!  Hopefully, I am not near as stupid!!!!  In my case, I got hurt more than the ultralight!



  It is my belief and understanding that Kolb aircraft are quite possibly the best flying light planes there are.  They do, however, require standard aircraft quality construction, maintenance, and equally important, a "thinking" person at the controls.  Those Kolb pilots with hundreds (or higher) of hours flying them probably agree.



Mike Welch

Living and learning all the time!



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Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

At 11:36 AM 3/7/2008, Mike Welch wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		     This makes me wonder about the UltraStar frame you have, Ray.  As I 

 said, I know of an UltraStar frame that was assembled with rotten quality 

 control.  I have NO doubt that this plane would likely have crashed, if 

 it were ever finished and flown.


	


A factory frame?  First I've heard of this, and it naturally makes me 

nervous.  What were the problems, what should i look for?



-Dana

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Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

At 09:45 PM 3/6/2008, George Alexander wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Too many previous hard landings and/or a bungee gave way?????


	


UltraStars don't have bungees, just a rigid gear, not even the spring steel 

gear of the later Kolbs... the only shock absorption is the tires, so you 

have to land it gently.  I watched the previous owner of my plane break a 

gear in a landing that looked no harder than the one on Youtube (to my 

friend's credit, it was a dead stick landing during his first solo in the 

plane... he got it onto the runway but had no speed left).



-Dana

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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

 	  Quote: 	
		   >   This makes me wonder about the UltraStar frame you have, Ray.  As I 

 > said, I know of an UltraStar frame that was assembled with rotten quality 

 > control.  I have NO doubt that this plane would likely have crashed, if 

 > it were ever finished and flown.

 

 A factory frame?  First I've heard of this, and it naturally makes me 

 nervous.  What were the problems, what should i look for?

 

 -Dana


	




   Dana, 



   No, not a "factory" frame.  The very early UltraStars could be purchased with unassembled, 

weld-your-own, frames.  You bought the chromoly and plans, and did your best!!  Only SOME 

people's "best" wasn't very good.



  It might be that in order to insure a more safe, and accurate fuselage, that Kolb Co. made 

pre-built frames standard equipment.



Mike



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George Alexander

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Location: SW Florida

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

 	  Dana wrote: 	
		  At 09:45 PM 3/6/2008, George Alexander wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Too many previous hard landings and/or a bungee gave way?????



	


 	  Quote: 	
		  UltraStars don't have bungees, just a rigid gear, not even the spring steel 

gear of the later Kolbs... 	


<<<<SNIP>>>>

-Dana

	




While not stock set-ups, I personally know of 3 different Ultrastars that had bungee suspension systems on their mains.



The attached images are of a very highly modified one (used to belong to Richard Swiderski of this group) with a bungee system.



Sorry I don't have images of the other two.

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Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

At 10:23 PM 3/7/2008, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  While not stock set-ups, I personally know of 3 different Ultrastars that 

had bungee suspension systems on their mains.



The attached images are of a very highly modified one (used to belong to 

Richard Swiderski of this group) with a bungee system.


	


Ah yes, the "stork" UltraStar.  I've heard of US's being modified with 

FireStar gear, too.  The problem is, you have to add the height to insure 

adequate prop clearance when the gear compresses.  The previous owner of my 

plane just installed much larger, soft tires... but then it wouldn't fit in 

the trailer so I had to go smaller again... and land carefully.



-Dana

--

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jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

Mike W.,



I have taken a very critical look at my frame before I bought and observed good quality of welds and workmanship everywhere.



Who ever the original owner was did an excellent job with my Ultrastar.



Granted I can not confirm what is happening inside the tubing, it seems like the Dry Southern California environment has probably kept any internal corrosion to a minimum.



Now that things are warming up, it won't be long before I find out for myself what flying a Kolb is like.



I have all the new AN hardware ready for installation, and I just need to hook up the second CHT sensor to my EIS, recalibrate my Fuel guage for 5 Gals, validate the engine temps and jet accordingly.



Looks like that video had the guy holding off/flare too high and simply ran out of airspeed while 3-4 feet off the ground.

_________________
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Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
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Grob 109 Motorglider

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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
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Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:06 am Post subject: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

Looks like that video had the guy holding off/flare too high and simply ran 

out of airspeed while 3-4 feet off the ground.>>



Hi All



Seems that I missed the original clip of this. Can anyone put it back on or 

tell me where to find it please.



Cheers



Pat

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:31 am Post subject: Botched UltraStar Landing Assessment

At 07:03 AM 3/12/2008, pj.ladd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Seems that I missed the original clip of this. Can anyone put it back on 

or tell me where to find it please.


	


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hqEBYcFp4k



-Dana

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