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gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

Do some research on corn ethanol. It is one 

of the biggest rip offs of all times. The only 

ones winning are farmers. It takes almost 

more energy to make it, than you get from it. 

Land use is such it drives prices up in other 

crops, that farmers are not growing to get on 

the government corn welfair subsidy ($5 billion 

of our money to have them grow corn, not even 

good corn). Why do we give them tax money 

and oil companies tax breaks when they are 

making 35 billion in after tax profit (profit not 

gross or net). Ethanol works for the Brazilians 

because they use sugar which has a positive 

energy return way superior to corn by a factor 

of many, and the sugar by products are usable.

Of course ethanol as a fuel kind of sucks. It 

has less energy density and does not work 

in cold weather. That is whey it will only be a 

"hamburger helper" to gas, like 10% at most.

   

  Write congress  and tell them enough. Love 

farmers but enough with handing out billions. 

Most "farmers" by the way are just big 

corporations now with lots of lobbyist. Is 

there any wounder why Iowa is the first 

primary. Who cares about Iowa except 

once every 4 years. Perverted and corrupt 

system keeps us (the government) from making 

good (but hard) decisions, void of special 

interest, for the best interest of the nation.



        Be a better friend, newshound, and   [quote][b]

arno7452(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:57 pm Post subject: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

Looks to me like kudzu should be the basic  ingredient.  We have plenty of it here in the south.  I suspect it can  be obtained for almost nothing.

  

 Ken

  

  

 [quote]   ---

william(at)gbta.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

Not that you care mister gmcjetpilot but  I take some offense to your rambling.  You need to do some research on the  farm bill.  You say that farmers get the $5 billion.  In reality,  farmers get a very small portion of that.  The majority of it is spent on  welfare programs like food stamps  and school lunches (yes, they are part  of the farm bill--I don't know why)!  For years farmers have been well  underpaid for their commodities and now that we are actually getting a  decent price we are all of a sudden the blame for nearly everything -- or so it  seems.  My grandad tells me that back in the '40's and '50's he sold wheat  for nearly $2.50/bushel.  Up until just the last couple years wheat was  still only $2.75 to $3/bushel.  I don't know what you do for a living but I  can guarantee you that if you are in any kind of sales your prices have gone up  since the 40's.  The US has and always will have the cheapest, most  abundant supply of food in the world.  The price of commodities actually  has very little to do with the price of food at your grocery store.  The  price markup comes from all of the middle men such as millers.

  

 As for the ethanol thing you are right  about it being a scam.  However, I support it and buy ethanol every chance  I get because our dependency on foreign oil is ludicrous.  You talk about  farmers getting rich, how about $102/barrel crude.  Why don't more people  bitch about that.  It may or may not be the answer to our fuel problems but  atleast we are trying something besides oil.

  

 As for the farmers getting rich, have you  checked out the price of inputs for raising corn, wheat, sorghum, etc...   NH3 (anhydrous ammonia--nitrogen) is pushing $700/ton now.  This time last  year we bought it for $385.  A single bag of corn is pushing $250 (1 bag  plants about 2.5 acres).  Not to mention equipment (planters are $150,000,  tractors are $200,000 and combines are near $300,000).  Fuel has gone up  nearly 40% in the last year.  Our farm alone is going to need over 60,000  gallons of diesel fuel this year and right now it is $3.40/gallon(and no, we are  not a corporate farm, we are a single family farm going on 125 years now).   You do the math and tell me who is getting rich.

  

 I am not crying on anybody's shoulder but  blatant, rude statements like yours really get me going and I really wish more  people knew the truth!!!

  

 Bill Britton

 Lewis, KS

 [quote]   ---

acepilot(at)bloomer.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

I know nothing about farming, so I will just come right out and ask.  How much corn does it take to make one gallon of ethanol?  How much would this amount of corn cost?  How much electricity cost is involved in one gallon of ethanol production?  In other words, what is the total cost to produce one gallon of ethanol?  This way, I'll be able to compare price per gallon between ethanol and gas (assuming I could burn 100% ethanol).

 

 Scott

 

 

 William Britton wrote:

 [quote]            Not that you care mister gmcjetpilot but I take some offense to your rambling.  You need to do some research on the farm bill.  You say that farmers get the $5 billion.  In reality, farmers get a very small portion of that.  The majority of it is spent on welfare programs like food stamps  and school lunches (yes, they are part of the farm bill--I don't know why)!  For years farmers have been well underpaid for their commodities and now that we are actually getting a decent price we are all of a sudden the blame for nearly everything -- or so it seems.  My grandad tells me that back in the '40's and '50's he sold wheat for nearly $2.50/bushel.  Up until just the last couple years wheat was still only $2.75 to $3/bushel.  I don't know what you do for a living but I can guarantee you that if you are in any kind of sales your prices have gone up since the 40's.  The US has and always will have the cheapest, most abundant supply of food in the world.  The price of commodities actually has very little to do with the price of food at your grocery store.  The price markup comes from all of the middle men such as millers.

    

   As for the ethanol thing you are right about it being a scam.  However, I support it and buy ethanol every chance I get because our dependency on foreign oil is ludicrous.  You talk about farmers getting rich, how about $102/barrel crude.  Why don't more people bitch about that.  It may or may not be the answer to our fuel problems but atleast we are trying something besides oil.

    

   As for the farmers getting rich, have you checked out the price of inputs for raising corn, wheat, sorghum, etc...  NH3 (anhydrous ammonia--nitrogen) is pushing $700/ton now.  This time last year we bought it for $385.  A single bag of corn is pushing $250 (1 bag plants about 2.5 acres).  Not to mention equipment (planters are $150,000, tractors are $200,000 and combines are near $300,000).  Fuel has gone up nearly 40% in the last year.  Our farm alone is going to need over 60,000 gallons of diesel fuel this year and right now it is $3.40/gallon(and no, we are not a corporate farm, we are a single family farm going on 125 years now).  You do the math and tell me who is getting rich.

    

   I am not crying on anybody's shoulder but blatant, rude statements like yours really get me going and I really wish more people knew the truth!!!

    

   Bill Britton

   Lewis, KS

    	  Quote: 	
		       ----- Original Message ----- 

     From:     gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com (gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com)     

     To:     rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)     

     Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 3:43 PM

     Subject: Re: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

     

     

     Do some research on corn ethanol. It is one 

 of the biggest rip offs of all times. The only 

 ones winning are farmers. It takes almost 

 more energy to make it, than you get from it. 

 Land use is such it drives prices up in other 

 crops, that farmers are not growing to get on 

 the government corn welfair subsidy ($5 billion 

 of our money to have them grow corn, not even 

 good corn). Why do we give them tax money 

 and oil companies tax breaks when they are 

 making 35 billion in after tax profit (profit not 

 gross or net). Ethanol works for the Brazilians 

 because they use sugar which has a positive 

 energy return way superior to corn by a factor 

 of many, and the sugar by products are usable.

 Of course ethanol as a fuel kind of sucks. It 

 has less energy density and does not work 

 in cold weather. That is whey it will only be a 

 "hamburger helper" to gas, like 10% at most.

      

     Write congress and tell them enough. Love 

 farmers but enough with handing out billions. 

 Most "farmers" by the way are just big 

 corporations now with lots of lobbyist. Is 

 there any wounder why Iowa is the first 

 primary. Who cares about Iowa except 

 once every 4 years. Perverted and corrupt 

 system keeps us (the government) from making 

 good (but hard) decisions, void of special 

 interest, for the best interest of the nation.

     

       Be a better friend, newshound, and      	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

	
     

      3/9/2008 12:17 PM

   

	
 -- 

Scott

http://corbenflyer.tripod.com

Flying Corben Junior Ace - Building RV-4

Gotta Fly or Gonna Die[b]

william(at)gbta.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

Scott, I'm sure the info you requested is  out there in internet land somewhere but I'll offer a couple answers.  From  one bushel (56 pounds) of corn  they can get a little over 2 gallon of  ethanol.  However, I have also "heard" that it takes more energy to make  ethanol than they get out of the ethanol.  I cannot say that this is true  or false.  It's just something I've heard.  I do know that due to the  price of corn and the relatively low price of ethanol, one of our more local  ethanol plants has closed it's doors and atleast one other plant slated for  construction has been atleast temporarily cancelled.  

  

 Please do not archive this.   

 Bill

 [quote]   ---

acepilot(at)bloomer.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:51 am Post subject: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

Thanks Bill.  I'll do some searching on the internet to see if I can figure it out.  I'll have to start with the price of a bushel of corn...I too wish there was a way we could cease buying ANY oil from the Mideast.  That might certainly change their lifestyle a bit   do not archive.

 

 Scott

 

 

 William Britton wrote: [quote]            Scott, I'm sure the info you requested is out there in internet land somewhere but I'll offer a couple answers.  From one bushel (56 pounds) of corn  they can get a little over 2 gallon of ethanol.  However, I have also "heard" that it takes more energy to make ethanol than they get out of the ethanol.  I cannot say that this is true or false.  It's just something I've heard.  I do know that due to the price of corn and the relatively low price of ethanol, one of our more local ethanol plants has closed it's doors and atleast one other plant slated for construction has been atleast temporarily cancelled.  

    

   Please do not archive this.    

   Bill

    	  Quote: 	
		       ----- Original Message ----- 

     From:     Scott (acepilot(at)bloomer.net)     

     To:     rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)     

     Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 10:23 PM

     Subject: Re: Re: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

     

     

 I know nothing about farming, so I will just come right out and ask.  How much corn does it take to make one gallon of ethanol?  How much would this amount of corn cost?  How much electricity cost is involved in one gallon of ethanol production?  In other words, what is the total cost to produce one gallon of ethanol?  This way, I'll be able to compare price per gallon between ethanol and gas (assuming I could burn 100% ethanol).

     

 Scott

     

     

 William Britton wrote:

      	  Quote: 	
		                       Not that you care mister gmcjetpilot but I take some offense to your rambling.  You need to do some research on the farm bill.  You say that farmers get the $5 billion.  In reality, farmers get a very small portion of that.  The majority of it is spent on welfare programs like food stamps  and school lunches (yes, they are part of the farm bill--I don't know why)!  For years farmers have been well underpaid for their commodities and now that we are actually getting a decent price we are all of a sudden the blame for nearly everything -- or so it seems.  My grandad tells me that back in the '40's and '50's he sold wheat for nearly $2.50/bushel.  Up until just the last couple years wheat was still only $2.75 to $3/bushel.  I don't know what you do for a living but I can guarantee you that if you are in any kind of sales your prices have gone up since the 40's.  The US has and always will have the cheapest, most abundant supply of food in the world.  The price of commodities actually has very little to do with the price of food at your grocery store.  The price markup comes from all of the middle men such as millers.

        

       As for the ethanol thing you are right about it being a scam.  However, I support it and buy ethanol every chance I get because our dependency on foreign oil is ludicrous.  You talk about farmers getting rich, how about $102/barrel crude.  Why don't more people bitch about that.  It may or may not be the answer to our fuel problems but atleast we are trying something besides oil.

        

       As for the farmers getting rich, have you checked out the price of inputs for raising corn, wheat, sorghum, etc...  NH3 (anhydrous ammonia--nitrogen) is pushing $700/ton now.  This time last year we bought it for $385.  A single bag of corn is pushing $250 (1 bag plants about 2.5 acres).  Not to mention equipment (planters are $150,000, tractors are $200,000 and combines are near $300,000).  Fuel has gone up nearly 40% in the last year.  Our farm alone is going to need over 60,000 gallons of diesel fuel this year and right now it is $3.40/gallon(and no, we are not a corporate farm, we are a single family farm going on 125 years now).  You do the math and tell me who is getting rich.

        

       I am not crying on anybody's shoulder but blatant, rude statements like yours really get me going and I really wish more people knew the truth!!!

        

       Bill Britton

       Lewis, KS

        	  Quote: 	
		           ----- Original Message ----- 

         From:         gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com (gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com) 

         To:         rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com) 

         Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 3:43 PM

         Subject: Re: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

         

         

         Do some research on corn ethanol. It is one 

 of the biggest rip offs of all times. The only 

 ones winning are farmers. It takes almost 

 more energy to make it, than you get from it. 

 Land use is such it drives prices up in other 

 crops, that farmers are not growing to get on 

 the government corn welfair subsidy ($5 billion 

 of our money to have them grow corn, not even 

 good corn). Why do we give them tax money 

 and oil companies tax breaks when they are 

 making 35 billion in after tax profit (profit not 

 gross or net). Ethanol works for the Brazilians 

 because they use sugar which has a positive 

 energy return way superior to corn by a factor 

 of many, and the sugar by products are usable.

 Of course ethanol as a fuel kind of sucks. It 

 has less energy density and does not work 

 in cold weather. That is whey it will only be a 

 "hamburger helper" to gas, like 10% at most.

          

         Write congress and tell them enough. Love 

 farmers but enough with handing out billions. 

 Most "farmers" by the way are just big 

 corporations now with lots of lobbyist. Is 

 there any wounder why Iowa is the first 

 primary. Who cares about Iowa except 

 once every 4 years. Perverted and corrupt 

 system keeps us (the government) from making 

 good (but hard) decisions, void of special 

 interest, for the best interest of the nation.

          Be a better friend, newshound, and          	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

	
          3/9/2008 12:17 PM

       

	
     -- 

Scott

http://corbenflyer.tripod.com

Flying Corben Junior Ace - Building RV-4

Gotta Fly or Gonna Die



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

	
     

      3/9/2008 12:17 PM

   

	
 -- 

Scott

http://corbenflyer.tripod.com

Flying Corben Junior Ace - Building RV-4

Gotta Fly or Gonna Die[b]

rv8a2001(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:07 am Post subject: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

It takes 3 to make 5 so your only really getting 2. I talked with Doctor Dennis Helder a while back, he is in charge of the E85 program. I also talked to the corn association to see how many bushels of corn per acre, and to keep my plane in E85 would take 25 acres a year. Of course that was a while back when E85 would have been 2.85 a gallon.

 

 

Scott  

RV-8a

 



 ---

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:12 am Post subject: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

gmcjetpilot...rambling...surely you jest.  Nothing but the facts  from the "scrambled letters after the name man".  Has more ratings than a  movie.  gmcjectpilot is a fountain of B.S. (basic science).    

  

 Chuck Jensen 

 [quote]   --

maurv8(at)compuplus.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

Your half right. The real big  winner is the Arthur Daniels Midland (ADM). This company has spent millions of  dollars to get corn ethanol into our fuels and ,now, they get a piece of the  total action as well as subsidies from the Federal Government. The corn  ethanol thing is one of the biggest rip-offs the Feds have put on the  people.

  

 On a side note, while the Montana  legislature was being beat up by the "greenies" to include ethanol in mogas, the  Montana Pilots Assoc and several other user groups got together to issuer one  grade of mogas was ethanol free.  So, in Montana, you can be assured  that 91 octane is ethanol free.

  

 Mauri 

RV-8 finishing  still

 Polson, MT

 [quote]   ---

cknauf

Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 6

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

Sorry I'm keeping this forum off-topic, but as a Minnesota resident this ethanol game is driving me crazy.



The study I read was done by the U of MI.  The conclusion was that the Net Energy Balance of ethanol was slightly better than petroleum, BUT ONLY after they added several "other" factors like less reliance on imported oil from unstable countries, creation of American jobs.  Without those credits, it took more BTUs to make a gallon of ethanol than the ethanol itself produced.  I'm sorry, but the laws of thermodynamics don't allow for such improvisation.  When you think about it, by using fossil fuel to produce ethanol, we are actually using more petroleum than we would have if we didn't mess with ethanol in the first place.  So, we're really just burning through the dwindling oil endowment even faster.



Go nuclear!

gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "William Britton" <william(at)gbta.net (william(at)gbta.net)>

Subject: Re: Re: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

  >Not that you care mister gmcjetpilot but I take some offense to your 

 	  Quote: 	
		  rambling.  You need to do some research on the farm bill.  You say that

  Well I do care and resent you saying that.

 	  Quote: 	
		  farmers get the $5 billion.  In reality, farmers get a very small 

portion of that.  The majority of it is spent on welfare programs like 

food stamps  and school lunches (yes, they are part of the farm bill--I

  Right, uhmm huha. Sure. Farmers don't get subsidies.

 	  Quote: 	
		  My grandad tells me that back in the '40's and '50's he sold wheat for 

nearly $2.50/bushel.  

  >have gone up since the 40's.   The US has and always will have the 

 	  Quote: 	
		  cheapest, most abundant supply of food in the world.  The price of 

commodities actually has very little to do with the price of food at 

your grocery store.  The price markup comes from all of the middle men 

such as millers.

Don't know how we got onto wheat, but your are right US is bread 

basket of the world with best agraculture bar none. What does 

that have to do with all the tea in china?

  >As for the ethanol thing you are right about it being a scam.  However,

See WE AGREE, I'll buy you a beer!

  >I support it and buy ethanol every chance I get because our dependency 

 	  Quote: 	
		  on foreign oil is ludicrous.  You talk about farmers getting rich, how 

about $102/barrel crude.  Why don't more people bitch about that.  It 

may or may not be  the answer to our fuel problems but atleast we are 

trying something besides oil.

I agree, and if we listened to Jimmy Carter in the 70's and when every 

on sold thier Caddy for a Honda Civic went down that road and we 

also did not MESS up Nuke power which we need more of, than we 

would not be in this mess. We learned our lesson in the 70's but 

forgot and SUV's abound. I love the Mom loading her shopping 

into this monster SUV with her 1.5 kids. What a waste.

  >As for the farmers getting rich, have you checked out the price of 

 	  Quote: 	
		  inputs for raising corn, wheat, sorghum, etc...  NH3 (anhydrous 

ammonia--nitrogen) is pushing $700/ton now.  This time last year we 

bought it for $385.  A single bag of corn is pushing $250 (1 bag plants

about 2.5 acres).  Not to mention equipment (planters are $150,000, 

tractors are $200,000 and combines are near  $300,000).  Fuel has gone

 >up nearly 40% in the last year.  Our farm alone is going to need over 

 	  Quote: 	
		  60,000 gallons of diesel fuel this year and right now it is 

$3.40/gallon(and no, we are not a corporate farm, we are a single

 family farm going on 125 years now).  You do the math and tell me who is 

getting rich.

  No no no no I never said that. Many farmers struggle. I know. I am just 

saying CORN ehtonal is NOT the answer and we need to work on 

the other kinds of ehtonal, switch grass or what ever. We need solar, 

wind, nuke as well. AND MOST OF ALL... we need to conserve. Yes 

I know that is un-American but we need to use less energy. You hear 

figures about if all cars got like 50 mpg we could get off of most forign 

oil. 

  FACT OIL WILL RUN OUT. We used a 1/3rd of the easist oil to 

get in the last 100 years. The next 1/3rd will be  much harder to get 

and we are using it at an a rate, accelerating at such a fantastic  

rate (as China/India explode), we will use that 1/3rd in the next 

40 years or less? Than the wars will break out. Oh wait too late 

they already have. 

  Tax money to help farmers grow things that don't work is dumb. 

I am all for providing subsides to grow the right crops the right 

way with out screwing up all the other crops. How? I don't know 

we need MORE farms, new ones growing switchgrass or sugar 

cane (I know it will not grow in KS.) 

 	  Quote: 	
		  I am not crying on anybody's shoulder but blatant, rude statements like

yours really get me going and I really wish more people knew the 

truth!!!

Bill Britton

  I guess we totally agree. I am sorry but we agree. Bummer for you.

  Cheers Goerge, love farmers, hate  politichians.

      [quote][b]

jlisler(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

cknauf wrote:  Go nuclear!



Right on brother! We make 1800 MW of electricity from clean nuclear power 

every day, 24 hours per day, seven days per week. We refuel after operating 

about 500 days at 100 % power. Think how much coal, natural gas, or oil we 

don't burn because of this.



Jerry Isler

Control Room Supervisor and

Licensed Senior Reactor Operator



Do Not Archive

lsbrv7a(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

Hi

  For ethanol to replace gasoline we will need mandatory multi fuel cars.  Brazil required cars to be multi-fuel. then worked on the science and economics of ethanol.  Then when the price structure worked for ethanol the consumer freely made the choice.

   

  do not archive 

   	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		    	
	


Sherman Butler

RV-7a Wings

N497GS reserved

Carlsbad, NM

        Be a better friend, newshound, and  [quote][b]

dbergh(at)starband.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

Bill,  

Well put.  The farm bill is really more of a “food bill” with all of the nutrition and food stamp programs it contains.  Direct payments amount to less than 25% of the new proposed Farm Bill.  In the case of our county in Idaho, govt. payments accounted for only 0.039% of total gross income for our producers! On average the grower gets less than 20 cents out of every food dollar and in many cases it is considerably less for most commodities.  That loaf of bread has only 13 cents worth of wheat in it. Who gets the other $2.37? The price increases being seen in today’s food costs are more energy driven than raw product driven.    

We have to get off foreign oil and soon.  Oil traded above $108/ bbl today.  We might look at $3.40 diesel as cheap (ouch) in hindsight if this trend continues.  That should scare all of us.  Corn ethanol is not THE answer, but can be PART of the answer, along with other renewable resources.  We are on the path with cellulosic and it will happen in time.  In the mean time I prefer to keep our energy dollars “in country” and tell the likes of Chavez to go to *&##.  

Like you, I am proud to feed the world and don’t ask for much in return, but it really is irritating when people criticize producers unfairly using bad information.   

People shouldn’t criticize US agriculture or US Ag policy on a full stomach!  We supply the most abundant, most affordable and safest food supply in the world. US consumers have the best deal going of any citizens in any developed country.  

Sorry for the off subject rant and now back to your regularly scheduled programming!  

Dave Bergh,  

Mountain Home, ID  

RV6 sloooooow build  

Do not archive  

         

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Britton

 Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 9:08 PM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)  

  

     

Not that you care mister gmcjetpilot but I take some offense to your rambling.  You need to do some research on the farm bill.  You say that farmers get the $5 billion.  In reality, farmers get a very small portion of that.  The majority of it is spent on welfare programs like food stamps  and school lunches (yes, they are part of the farm bill--I don't know why)!  For years farmers have been well underpaid for their commodities and now that we are actually getting a decent price we are all of a sudden the blame for nearly everything -- or so it seems.  My grandad tells me that back in the '40's and '50's he sold wheat for nearly $2.50/bushel.  Up until just the last couple years wheat was still only $2.75 to $3/bushel.  I don't know what you do for a living but I can guarantee you that if you are in any kind of sales your prices have gone up since the 40's.  The US has and always will have the cheapest, most abundant supply of food in the world.  The price of commodities actually has very little to do with the price of food at your grocery store.  The price markup comes from all of the middle men such as millers.  

    

   

    

As for the ethanol thing you are right about it being a scam.  However, I support it and buy ethanol every chance I get because our dependency on foreign oil is ludicrous.  You talk about farmers getting rich, how about $102/barrel crude.  Why don't more people bitch about that.  It may or may not be the answer to our fuel problems but atleast we are trying something besides oil.  

    

   

    

As for the farmers getting rich, have you checked out the price of inputs for raising corn, wheat, sorghum, etc...  NH3 (anhydrous ammonia--nitrogen) is pushing $700/ton now.  This time last year we bought it for $385.  A single bag of corn is pushing $250 (1 bag plants about 2.5 acres).  Not to mention equipment (planters are $150,000, tractors are $200,000 and combines are near $300,000).  Fuel has gone up nearly 40% in the last year.  Our farm alone is going to need over 60,000 gallons of diesel fuel this year and right now it is $3.40/gallon(and no, we are not a corporate farm, we are a single family farm going on 125 years now).  You do the math and tell me who is getting rich.  

    

   

    

I am not crying on anybody's shoulder but blatant, rude statements like yours really get me going and I really wish more people knew the truth!!!  

    

   

    

Bill Britton  

    

Lewis, KS  

  [quote]    

---

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:04 pm Post subject: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

Nobody talks about the units of energy needed to refine crude oil.  You 

start with 1 barrel and you never get close to one barrel out. Not only 

that, but only perhaps 0.6 of the barrel can be of compounds available 

for gasoline of any variety, maybe 0.3-0.4 of kerosene...the ratio 

between kero and gas can be adjusted through cracking, but you get less 

of one to get more of the other. Then you get smaller fractions as 

asphalt and bunker oil....but there is a significant fraction of btus 

that is consumed in the refining...whether it comes from crude, natural 

gas, or coal, and whichever fuel the refinery uses it emits huge amounts 

of CO2.

Depending on whose study you use, ethanol gives 1.3 to 1.6 btus for each 

btu in when corn is the feedstock and the Energy Dept supports a figure 

a bit above 1.3.  Yes there are one or two studies that are written by 

fervent opponents to ethanol, that fail to acknowledge the energy and 

fuel value of the distiller's grain left from the ethanol production, 

and also include figures for the energy used to manufacture the 

tractors, combines, trucks and all other farm vehicles, and the energy 

to heat the farmers home, etc. You decide where reality lies. Oh, and 

ethanol from sugar cane, as Brazil does it, produces 8 btus for each btu 

input.

Not to mention biodiesel that produces 3-5 btu per btu input, depending 

on which plants are used for oil source.

cknauf wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Sorry I'm keeping this forum off-topic, but as a Minnesota resident this ethanol game is driving me crazy.



 The study I read was done by the U of MI.  The conclusion was that the Net Energy Balance of ethanol was slightly better than petroleum, BUT ONLY after they added several "other" factors like less reliance on imported oil from unstable countries, creation of American jobs.  Without those credits, it took more BTUs to make a gallon of ethanol than the ethanol itself produced.  I'm sorry, but the laws of thermodynamics don't allow for such improvisation.  When you think about it, by using fossil fuel to produce ethanol, we are actually using more petroleum than we would have if we didn't mess with ethanol in the first place.  So, we're really just burning through the dwindling oil endowment even faster.



 Go nuclear!





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=168918#168918

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:18 pm Post subject: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

I agree with a few of your points. Corn is a poor choice for feedstock 

to make ethanol.

We do need to conserve.. We could start by raising the price of airline 

flights so that they were a luxury like they were before deregulation, 

so that the majority of the population traveled by much more efficient 

railroads. We could put major tax on all engines over 2.5 liters like 

most of Europe, and tax heavy trucks for the real cost of damage they do 

to the roads. We do need 50 mpg cars. They already exist. Most 2.0 liter 

and smaller diesel cars are already there. Unfortunately, the President 

has deemed it a constitutional right to drive a Suburban or Excursion or 

Hummer with 7+ liter gas guzzling engines. Remind me again what the 

price of oil and gas was when the current White House resident moved in?

We could make all the 50 year old smoke belching coal power plants clean 

up to the same standards as a new plant and add carbon 

sequestration..which would raise the price of energy to the point people 

wouldn't waste it with so called security lighting and advertising 

lighting for billboards, etc.

Oh, we have been at peak oil since about 1905. There will be some oil 

for a very long time..you just won't like the price.



gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I know that is un-American but we need to use less energy. You hear

 figures about if all cars got like 50 mpg we could get off of most forign

 oil.



  

 FACT OIL WILL RUN OUT. We used a 1/3rd of the easist oil to

 get in the last 100 years. The next 1/3rd will be much harder to get

 and we are using it at an a rate, accelerating at such a fantastic 

 rate (as China/India explode), we will use that 1/3rd in the next

 40 years or less? Than the wars will break out. Oh wait too late

 they already have.



 I guess we totally agree. I am sorry but we agree. Bummer for you.

  

 Cheers Goerge, love farmers, hate politichians.



 *

 *

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:23 am Post subject: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

Dave  Bergh, Amen.

 Sherman Butler, Amen

 Jerry  Isler, Amen

 Rich  Galati, Amen

 GMCJet, Oh man

  

 Chuck Jensen  

 [quote]   --

jfogarty(at)tds.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:33 am Post subject: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

Dave, I like your rant.   It's hard  for consumers to look down the road just a  few short years.   I agree with you completely, and thanks for supplying us with food,  your products are very important in my life.  Lightly sweetened corn  & whole wheat flake cereal with granola in Pequot Lakes yesterday  was $5.00 for two 16 OZ boxes.  That would last Diane and me for  over a year.   Previous life, ag business, Co-op manager and farm  boy.  Thanks.

  

 Jim

 RV9A Builder 

 [quote]   ---

panamared5(at)brier.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:08 am Post subject: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

At 07:35 PM 3/10/08, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   >farmers get the $5 billion.  In reality, farmers get a very small

 >portion of that.  The majority of it is spent on welfare programs like

 >food stamps  and school lunches (yes, they are part of the farm bill--I

Right, uhmm huha. Sure. Farmers don't get subsidies.

I am a farmer, have been doing it for the last 10 years.  I have yet 

to see any farm subsidies, nor have I ever received any.  I quit 

raising beef cattle because before I could break even, hamburger at 

Wal-Mart would have to be selling for $15.00/Lb.  As a farmer, I got 

tired of subsidizing the beef eating consumer.  I can now sell corn 

for more than I can sell beef.

If I got $5 billion for farming, I sure would not have built nor 

would I be flying an RV!  If money was not a problem, I can think of 

many other airplanes I would rather own.

Bob

RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"

gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9QQcP_Y1II

   

  "All corn ethanol will do is make corn farmers richer"

  "If corn ethanol was so good than it would not need subsidies"

   

  >Subject:  Re: Corn Ethanol (was Alternative engines)

 	  Quote: 	
		  From:  "Chuck Jensen" cjensen(at)dts9000.com (cjensen(at)dts9000.com)



  >gmcjetpilot...rambling...surely you jest.
	


   

  No, I'm not jesting and don't call me Shirley.

   

  >Nothing but the facts from the "scrambled letters 

 	  Quote: 	
		  after the name man".

   
	


  What does that mean? Sounds like you are grinding 

an ax. Why don't you email direct and you can talk 

to me like a man, instead of this childish name 

calling. 

   

  I LOVE how you call me names, but you  

don't present any facts or dispute anything I say.

You just posted William Britton, who by the way 

is agreeing with me. FACT's are the Gov is 

subsidizing corn ethanol. OK, experiment is 

done and EVEN the Gov realizes this is stupid 

and constituents are complaining so much, even 

the Gov is planning ending the subsides.

   

  Why don't you do some research & learn 

something and than write, instead of piling on 

and acting like a big waa snif sob waa cry baby. 

If you have something original and intelligent to 

say great, but if all you got is personal attacks, 

shut up. If corn ethanol is good it would not 

need subsidies.

   

  Don't come to a debate stupid; you are like a 

knife in a gun fight, you're defenseless. Now 

go crawl in your little troll hole.

   

  Because I don't think you can read or write:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9QQcP_Y1II

   

  Here is your reading assignment of you can:

  http://www.taxpayer.net/energy/ethanolprimer.pdf



  http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/005020.html links to

http://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2008a/080215TynerRevolution.html

   

  http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2007/02/ethanol_subsidi.html

   

  NOW SHUT UP IDIOT. 

   

  >Has more ratings than a movie. gmcjectpilot is a 

 	  Quote: 	
		  fountain of B.S. (basic science).   

Chuck Jensen

    
	


  You sound jelious. Yes I do have 9 faa ratings and 

three type ratings, so what? If I don't say what my 

background is, I get complaints. So shut up.

   

  Cheers  WTF



   [quote][b]

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