Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Ethanol not from corn

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Ethanol not from corn

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

dave(at)rv-7.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: Ethanol not from corn

I haven't heard anybody weighing in on  "Cellulosic Ethanol".  Some sources

say it has three times the Net energy that Corn Ethanol has since the

energy input to produce the biomass it is derived from is reduced.  



At least there is a chance of non food crop produced Ethanol being

commercially produced.  The science seems to work since they are producing

it in small amounts now.  Anybody have input about this other source?



David Richardson

http://rv-7.com

finishing





--------------------------------------------------------------------

mail2web.com – What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?

http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: Ethanol not from corn

I have only one correction to your post, that being about only a small amount of cellulosic ethanol being produced.  That's true in the U.S., but in Brazil, they produce massive quantities (world leader) of cellulosic ethanol (from sugar cane stalks, I believe).  The reason they don't export more of it to the U.S. is the U.S. slaps a 30%-50% tariff on it.  I assume we can thank Archer-Daniel Midlands and their buddies for that.  As things stand right now, I'd rather send my fuel dollars to Brasil than ________ (insert name of any Middle Eastern country as well as Venezuela).



Chuck Jensen

--

Rick Galati

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 91
Location: Lake St. Louis MO.

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol not from corn

Chuck, 



I feel your rage but for the record, sugar is the second most profitable crop in the U.S. only exceeded by tobacco. The Florida Everglades produces hundreds of tons of the stuff each year.  Don't assume Archer Daniel Midland is behind sugar prices and tariff restrictions.  Just follow the money. There is plenty of blame to spread around and in the special case of sugar we can look to vast sums of money that are funneled into the pockets of two little known, yet extremely wealthy and politically powerful brothers named Alfie and Pepe Fanjul of Palm Beach Fla. They are far and away the prime recipients of the sugar program in the United States, estimated to cost the U.S. taxpayers 1.4 billion a year.  How?  According to NBC news, our government guarantees the Fanjul brothers 22 cent per pound of sugar even though the worldwide price is 7 cents a pound. It is argued that elements of the sugar program are custom crafted to serve the Fanjul brothers and include import quotas and tariffs that effectively keeps foreign sugar out of the U.S.  Look no further than Canada to the north and Mexico to the south to observe two nearby  countries that enjoy sugar prices one third the U.S. price.  Not only that, it is said the Fanjul brothers have petitioned our government to amend  immigration laws so they can and do legally bring in foreign workers who live an anonymous life of hard labor and virtual bondage in company "housing."  If more Americans really knew about the ongoing sweetheart deal in Florida, especially as regards the Fanjul brothers and the Florida Crystals Corp., maybe the sugar program could finally be adjusted to truly serve the needs of the average American citizen the way the sugar program was intended to instead of lining and relining the pockets of two fantastically wealthy brothers and the political cover they have nurtured for years.   They dispense large sums of money to gain political access while covering all the bases.  One brother is a Democrat and the other is a Republican.  



 	  cjensen(at)dts9000.com wrote: 	
		  ......The reason they don't export more of it to the U.S. is the U.S. slaps a 30%-50% tariff on it.  I assume we can thank Archer-Daniel Midlands and their buddies for that..... Chuck Jensen-

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: Ethanol not from corn

As long as the government has the power to reward some at the expense of

others, there will be smart people to game the system at other's expense. We

don't need to adjust the various subsidies -- we need to eliminate them, and

then eliminate the power to grant them. 



There are very, very few ideas so good that passing a law to make them

mandatory won't make bad ideas, or granting a little subsidy won't distort

beyond recognition. 



I grew up on a little "family farm" in the Nooksack River valley of Western

Washington. I will forever be thankful that it didn't occur to anyone

running for county commissioner that maybe they should subsidize stumps.



Terry





--

gcomfo(at)tc3net.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: Ethanol not from corn

I haven't heard anybody weighing in on  "Cellulosic Ethanol".  Some sources

say it has three times the Net energy that Corn Ethanol has since the energy

input to produce the biomass it is derived from is reduced.  



At least there is a chance of non food crop produced Ethanol being

commercially produced.  The science seems to work since they are producing

it in small amounts now.  Anybody have input about this other source?



David Richardson

http://rv-7.com

finishing

Dave:  Suggest you look at R Squared Energy Blog.  As of now (3-10-08 6:40pm

edt) the 4th article comments on cellulosic ethanol.  I'll try to write down

the address.  Robert Rapier claims to have been in the energy business for

some years in various capacities.  You may find his site to be of interest.

Http://i-r-squared.blogspot.com/        I am not sure if the last slash is

needed but if it doesn't work just try googling as above.



Gordon Comfort

N363GC

3edcft6(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: Ethanol not from corn

dave(at)rv-7.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I haven't heard anybody weighing in on  "Cellulosic Ethanol".  Some sources

 say it has three times the Net energy that Corn Ethanol has since the

 energy input to produce the biomass it is derived from is reduced.  



 At least there is a chance of non food crop produced Ethanol being

 commercially produced.  The science seems to work since they are producing

 it in small amounts now.  Anybody have input about this other source?

   

I heard on the news a while back that making ethanol from switch grass 
	


yields around 7 to 10 times more energy out than in, where corn is like 

1.3 out for 1 in.  And from what I understand it is a lot easier to grow 

switch grass than corn since switch grass is basically a weed.  For 

aircraft use I still think Diesel is the best way to go.  We just have 

to wait for the various diesel engine options in the works. 



For those who don't know, pretty much any diesel engine will run fine on 

jet fuel (certainly any diesel engine designed for use in an airplane) 

so finding fuel for a diesel powered plane isn't hard.  And since diesel 

engines are more efficient than gas, that means you need less weight of 

diesel than gas to go the same distance, and since diesel weighs more 

per gallon, you can go a lot further on a tank of diesel than you can on 

a tank of gas.

Do not archive.



-- 

Chris W

KE5GIX



"Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM, 

learn more at http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm"



Ham Radio Repeater Database.

http://hrrdb.com

dbergh(at)starband.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:11 am Post subject: Ethanol not from corn

Rick,

I hate to go off again, but you have really touched a nerve here. 

The US sugar program is a response to predatory foreign trade practices in

which countries "dump" their excess sugar supplies far below their cost of

production in an attempt to bolster their own domestic sugar markets. This

dump market is very thinly traded and if we went to this for our needs the

price paid by sugar buyers in this country would and does skyrocket. The

fact is the world market was very nearly equal to our domestic price

recently (and our price has not risen in 25 years).  As far as Mexico goes-

their market price has actually been higher than the US price for several

years now due to a number of internal factors and trade restrictions. Sugar

is one of the most distorted markets on a global basis.  

The Fanjoul's are the exception to the rule in our industry and are

regularly used as the "whipping boy" by folks that have tried to dismantle

our policy for many years.  There are exceptions to every rule and this is

one- but is not representative of the industry as a whole.  

I agree, there are abuses in the farm bill system and we attempt to deal

with these every 5 to 7 years when we write a new bill.  No bill is perfect

but I think overall it does a pretty good job of supplying consumers in this

country with a viable food supply at affordable prices.

Most other commodity programs pay direct subsidies to producers and then

attempt to export excess production offshore as we produce in excess of our

domestic needs. The difference in our program and most commodity programs is

that we produce 85% of our domestic needs and import the remaining 15% from

foreign producers through trade agreements around the world. We get our

income from the market place- not direct payments.  Imports are limited

through tariffs (remember the world dump market). The intent of the policy

is to maintain a stable supply and price for both sides of the equation. It

does this quite well.  Look at sugar prices on your grocer's shelves.  They

have been stable for many years.  In the 70's we had no sugar policy for a

number of years and the price swings were huge and not survivable for many

producers or users.

Also 53% of our domestic sugar is produced from Sugarbeets, produced by

family farmers all across the northern half of our country. In addition we

own all of our facilities as cooperative members so we are personally

invested in our industry. We are competitive with most other producers in

the world and we are not protectionist.  We import sugar from 42 different

countries through bi-lateral trade agreements and WTO obligations. Our

policy is designed to provide a stable, affordable and safe supply of sugar

for users while maintaining the viability of our domestic producers.  

Trust me, the vast majority of us are not getting rich off this program, we

get by and some years are better than others but rising input costs are a

serious threat to this and many other industries in the US. 

I saw a bumper sticker that read "If you like foreign oil you'll Love

Foreign Food".  Pretty scary if you consider the implications of losing our

domestic food producers and becoming dependant on the likes of "ChiIndia"

for this most precious staple of life-Food.  The country that can't feed

itself stands no chance of long term survival in a manner that any of us

would care for.

Be careful what you read and hear in the media.  They have been known to

leave out a few very important facts that don't happen to fit in with their

definition of what the story should be.  We all fall victim to the 30 second

sound bite on the 6:00 news and don't have the time to do our own fact

checking so it is incumbent on all of us to be a wise consumer on the "news"

front.

Not trying to pick on you Rick, but I had to present the other side of the

story.

I'm sorry to be so long winded and get off track again but this industry

(Ag) is near and dear to my heart and I want folks to hear more than what

the media reports on some issues.

Dave Bergh 

Bergh Farms LLC

Mountain Home, ID

RV6

Do not archive

--

tcone1(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: Ethanol not from corn

I NEVER do this, but....



Where's the RV relevance in any of this entire thread?

n212pj(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:14 am Post subject: Ethanol not from corn

You have a good point, but I, for one, like this  thread very much.  It has been civil, informative, food for thought, has  made me dig for more information.  I think it important for our flying  community to every once in awhile have at a critical topic.  It'll die down  after awhile, but in the meantime this great forum gives voice to some good  debate.  Sure it can be shouted down and moved off the list, but it's one  of the great things about this forum that a RV related topic (oil, gas, are we  going to be flying in 20 years time) is heard.  I hate it when people get  mean about their posts, driving good RV folks off the list, but that type of  behavior isn't on display here.   



--

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: Ethanol not from corn

RV drivers are concerned about the various government mandates for ethanol

in auto fuel. Ethanol can cause problems when used in airplane engines. This

lead to a discussion of the merits and demerits of government mandated

programs which lead to a discussion of farm subsidies so now we have some of

what was once that fiercely independent group called farmers defending their

handouts and restrictions on competition. 



If you want to destroy an industry, give it price supports. If that doesn't

work, subsidize it, and if that doesn't work protect it from competition,

all the time claiming that without your help we wouldn't have whatever vital

product that industry produces.



Farmers, like so many other groups in an economy are vital to us living

healthy and happy lives. But so is a free market where we can decide for

ourselves how much we are willing to pay for what we consume and charge for

what we produce. If we want to pay too little or charge too much we will

have to make adjustments or do without. This all works extraordinarily well

until someone decides they should get special treatment because of their

unique products or services or needs and gets their congressperson to pass a

law telling the rest of us that we have to pay them a little more or charge

a little less, or buy something we don't need, or buy from someone other

than who we want to buy from. 



It's all just a food fight after that.



That's the relevance. It seems to me the thread connecting it back to RV's

is getting pretty thin.



Terry



--

gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject: Ethanol not from corn

 	  Quote: 	
		  From:  "dave(at)rv-7.com (dave(at)rv-7.com)" <dave(at)rv-7.com (dave(at)rv-7.com)> 

Subject:  Ethanol not from corn

      I haven't heard anybody weighing in on

      "Cellulose Ethanol".

      David Richardson

      http://rv-7.com, finishing

  Yes sugar cane and switch grass is way better, but 

the corn lobby has power. Obviously we don't or 

can't grow sugar cane like Brazil. Switch grass is 

great but takes lots of land. Bottom line ethanol is 

not the panacea or be all end all, to end foreign oil 

dependence. It is only a small part of the 

solution. Wind, solar, nuclear, hydrogen fuel cells 

elec, ethanol, are all bits and pieces of the solution; 

none are the single  solution. All have negatives. 

  It will take a little of each technology to get the job 

done, but the BIG ONE, no one has the cajones to 

talk about, is "CONSERVATION". I am no green 

guy, I LOVE burning fossil fuels, but reality is, in 

the next 40 years, we, our kids or grand kids will 

be looking back at $100 barrel oil as THE GOOD 

OLD DAYS. George RV-7, finishing

        Be a better friend, newshound, and   [quote][b]

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum