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British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)
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skyguynca

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 128

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)

You know I really try to stay out of these he said she said things. We all 

need to remember this is not a personal issue, it is a design issue. The HD 

and HDS have had a great success story with no problems. The XL is showing a 

higher number of problems in a much shorter time. That alone would warrant 

investigation by the FAA if it was certified, so people asking questions and 

wondering is not out of line at all, so there should be no flaming or 

personal attacks for people just wantting to be reassured that their 

investment won't kill them. Now I want one person, and only one person on 

here to explain to me how someone can state that the airplane was flown 

beyond its designed manuvering speed when the people on the airplane itself 

died. Come on now unless you have some holy than thou power and sit on the 

right hand of God............NO ONE CAN TALK TO DEAD PEOPLE. I was on 

several investigations for the US Army concerning helicopter accidents. The 

rule of thumb for all investigations civil and or military is "if you can 

not find a definite iron clad cause, then it must be pilot error".  I have 

alwasy thought that was unfair, because we have on several occasions found 

minor things that as a whole could have caused a accident but the leader of 

the investigation team deemed it unimportant as a whole and called it pilot 

error. I am sure this happens with the FAA and NTSB on experimental crashes. 

The airplanes are not certified so one investigator is sent, he takes 40 or 

so pictures and writes a report the same night and to save tax dollars and 

his time says "pilot error". Not on any of the accidents did the FAA use the 

option of a structual inspection to determine how the failure happened.



David Mikesell

Cloverdale, CA 95425



---

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:34 pm Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)

Waiting the same here, slow but complete. This is an example, in spanish of 

an RV 4 stalling after take off due to pilot error. Both dead.



http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/0829B046-4C00-4D3E-B378-40F06DA29314/32986/2007_045_A1.pdf



As soon as I get the report on the XL crash in Barcelona, I´ll post it in 

english. BTW DGAC is like the NTSB



Bye



Alberto Martin

Iberplanes IGL

http://www.iberplanes.es

Igualada - Barcelona - España



---

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)

Sorry to say but I would rather prefer a "neutral" opinion.



BTW, those articles were really nice, and thank to them I decide and bought 

an XL instead of a Sonex



Alberto Martin

Iberplanes IGL

http://www.iberplanes.es

Igualada - Barcelona - EspaÃ±a



---

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)

Thanks, Clyde.  You make a very good point about engine weights.



As a fellow 601 XL flyer with a Corvair motor, I too would like to hear something "official" from Zenith.  But I do know that they're working on it.



 	  Quote: 	
		  From the results of my own flight testing, we changed the incidence on the horizontal stab (with Zenith's blessing) to offset the lack of up elevator authority near stall in flare.


	


Without that change, and with a "heavy" motor, there was an excess of down elevator and a shortage of up.  It was obvious, even to me, that if the stick was suddenly jammed forward at cruise, the results would be immediate and not good at all for the airframe nor occupants.  After flight testing the original configuration, it doesn't take much imagination at all to see how jamming the stick forward at cruise could pitch the fuselage up and away from the wings.



This doesn't necessarily indicate a design flaw, since the 601 can be equipped with a wide variety of powerplants.  But it does underscore the need for us, as builders, to make sure we get the CG right and pay attention to how much junk we stick fore and aft during construction.



Most likely, I'll wander out to the hanger and come up with some sort of temporary "soft stop" on the stick, limiting forward travel unless pushed really hard.  Maybe one of those fat rubber bungies will work as a safeguard, until Zenith releases their findings with something definitive that we can review and implement if needed.



rick



--

tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)

You're right, Alberto, in a perfect world we would all be without any sort of bias when addressing these issues.  I'm just not yet convinced that an outside engineering evaluation is needed at this point.



I was just trying to provide a little more information, just another piece of the puzzle.  However, my own experience with Zenith has been nothing but positive, and I know for a fact that they're hard on the case.



I'm glad you liked the series, and congratulations on your purchase decision.



I would be the last person to claim that the Zenith 601 is the greatest airplane in the world, but it IS a nice flying, economical little two seater that is perfect for leaving your blues on the ground.



Have fun building!



rick

--

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)

Chris Heintz himself has cautioned that sudden, full deflection of the stick, either fore or aft, at cruise speed, is likely to overstress the structure. The full elevator travel is there specifically for slow speed control. The Zodiac stick is NOT a computer game joy stick.



Jay in Dallas

Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com> wrote:



[quote]



Thanks, Clyde.  You make a very good point about engine weights.



As a fellow 601 XL flyer with a Corvair motor, I too would like to hear something "official" from Zenith.  But I do know that they're working on it.



>From the results of my own flight testing, we changed the incidence on the horizontal stab (with Zenith's blessing) to offset the lack of up elevator authority near stall in flare.



Without that change, and with a "heavy" motor, there was an excess of down elevator and a shortage of up.  It was obvious, even to me, that if the stick was suddenly jammed forward at cruise, the results would be immediate and not good at all for the airframe nor occupants.  After flight testing the original configuration, it doesn't take much imagination at all to see how jamming the stick forward at cruise could pitch the fuselage up and away from the wings.



This doesn't necessarily indicate a design flaw, since the 601 can be equipped with a wide variety of powerplants.  But it does underscore the need for us, as builders, to make sure we get the CG right and pay attention to how much junk we stick fore and aft during construction.



Most likely, I'll wander out to the hanger and come up with some sort of temporary "soft stop" on the stick, limiting forward travel unless pushed really hard.  Maybe one of those fat rubber bungies will work as a safeguard, until Zenith releases their findings with something definitive that we can review and implement if needed.



rick



--

MHerder

Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Fort Worth TX

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)

If a statement from Zenith is going to be made, it should be made as soon  as possible, not in the next months issue of "XXXXXX"   So this is the only reason I am a little skeptical of such statement, not to say that it isn't or couldn't be true.  I believe that Zenith could and would do better than that.  



The exception to this instant notification obligation would be if a recent accident or incident confirmed without a doubt that an ordinary and undamaged airframe was simply overstressed or flown out of its limits leading to its demise.   ( Like perhaps recent findings in the AMD case)



Mr. Heintz has openly acknowledged that the elevator has a large amount of control authority that should not be abused.   You can feel this when you fly it.   If I was a manufacturer looking to quiet the uproar in the builder community one solution would be to "fix" something i.e. limit the control surface auththority.  



Especially if I felt that the entire amount of authority was not required.  This would probably be good practice anyway, but leaving the full range of authority would not make the design bad either, just more prone to abuse.  I could kill myself with a hammer just as easily as  an airplane..  It is how you use it.



Such a statement and fix from the manufacturer  would do two things 1)  Hopefully stop people from folding up their wings, which isn't really a good thing when you are trying to sell planes  and 2)  Provide a fix for those who like to fix things for the sake of "fixing them" broken or unbroken.  



It would be a way for a manufacturer to solve the problem without having to accept the liabilities that problems bring. 



This is just my 2 cents on what I suspect such an article would say if it truly existed.  



As another poster suggested that we should state disclaimers that if we post information and we are not aeronautical enigneers so hear I  go.



DISCLAIMER:



I AM NOT AN AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER, I DON'T KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT, DON'T MODIFY YOUR DESIGN, YOU SHOULDN'T LISTEN TO ME, I HAVE NO CREDENTIALS, AND FINALLY I AM NOT EVEN THAT SMART 



SERIOUSLY THOUGH GUYS, UNLESS YOU ARE AN AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER LETS NOT THROW AROUND SUGGESTED FIXES TO PROBLEMS THAT HAVEN'T BEEN CONFIRMED.  TO CLARIFY, IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM AM I SUGGESTING THAT ANYONE SHOULD MODIFY THEIR CONTROL DEFLECTIONS.

 	  swater6 wrote: 	
		  Rick,

Thanks for the update. Please let us know when you can share more.



For those of you that don't read Kitplanes magazine, Rick is the one that built the first XL from a quickbuild kit and did a great eight series report on the build last year.  You also may have seen it at Sun-n-Fun last year. 



I think he's got some credibility as someone with potential inside info.  While I know we all want info now (me too), I can understand why Zenith would want to be fully prepared before commenting publicly.  (Although I hope the response and info is better than last time)  



Now, Maybe Mark Townsend from can-zac can chime in too???? please???  



PS. I'm still planning on making a lot of aluminum chips in my basement this weekend....

_________________
Zodiac 601 HD
Jabiru 3300
Wood Sensinich 64x47
Finally Flying

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)

I don't know exactly what can happen if you hit a bird, but I believe 

it can be an absolute catastrophe.  The birds in question are not 

sparrows, they are 20 pounds or more of blood, guts, claws, and bone 

along with a few feathers.



I have seen videos of what a bird can do to a huge jet engine.  Let 

me just say it is fatal for both the bird and the engine.



I suspect anyone who hits a large bird in a small plane with a 

plastic canopy at 120 knots will probably be killed instantly by the 

impact.  Consider being hit by a frozen turkey at that speed and you 

get the idea.



I think the only way to safely deal with this issue is to watch 

carefully for birds and avoid hitting them.  I understand the best 

way to avoid a head-on collision with a bird is to pull up since they 

always dive.



Paul

XL fuselage

At 08:23 AM 3/12/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I think my point is maneuvering speed.

If your canopy is hit by a bird at 120 knots and you yank all the 

way back on the controls you are in trouble.

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)

On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 12:34:00PM -0800, Rick Lindstrom wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   All I can say (right now) is that the powers that be at Zenith are very

 aware of this issue, have devoted significant resources to precisely

 identify the failure mode, and will most likely be going public with their

 findings in short order.


	


How short? Can I expect an answer before I take delivery of my AMD Zodiac

XLi in late May or early June? Will they have it in time to implement the

fix on my aircraft?



 	  Quote: 	
		   To heap scorn on Zenith, assume they're doing nothing, and commit to

 taking the design to an outside engineer for validation is premature, in

 my opinion.  The Zenith guys have no shortage of professional concern and

 integrity, and need to be given the chance to respond.


	


Even a simple "We understand there are concerns, and are having the design

reviewed by an outside professional" (or whatever applies) would help

immensely.



 	  Quote: 	
		   In the mean time, it would serve us all well to take a deep breath, chill,

 and give those wing tips a good shake during preflight if we have any

 reservations about flying.


	


Will this, in fact, reveal the problem in time to avoid a failure?

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (getting ready to order)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)

BTW: the additional structural load test done last year was done by an

independent outsider:



"In order to make absolutely certain nothing is missed, an independent

structural engineer will confirm the findings of these rigorous tests."

http://www.zenithair.com/news/c-heintz-5-10-2007.html



Now you may say that it wasn't really independent since Zenith was paying

for it. But I have a hard time believing a professional would put his names

on a report if he didn't believe it. Ignoring personal integrity, think of

his liability as an independent structural engineer.



-- Craig



--

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)

Oh contrare.  I hit a RedTail hawk once.  I saw him, he saw me.  We "both" 

pulled up.  My aircraft shuddered but the hawk lost out.

What bird are you speaking of when you typed 20 pounds ?

SeaGull might be 3 to 5 pounds and full of anchovies...

...

---

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)

Re: pilot error. I've attached a picture of my license plate.



-- Craig



--

IMG_0999.JPG

Description:

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25.11 KB

Viewed:

462 Time(s)

tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)

Hi, Jay.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Will this, in fact, reveal the problem in time to avoid a failure?


	


Well, I may be obtuse, but I'm not convinced that there is a "problem" when the airplane is flown within its design limits.



You're absolutely right that an official response (of any sort) is needed, and now would not be too soon.



Thinking about this a bit more, upon suddenly having a canopy full of bird, most of us would jam the stick forward to try to avoid a collision.  Which would be dumb, given the givens.



rick 



--

rpf(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)

Doesn't the factory plane have over 1000 hours on it???

I know they fly that thing in all kinds of wind and turbulence, like the day 

I had my demo ride.  I believe if the plane is built properly and flown 

within it's design limits, it will probably out last it's builder.



Randy

---

skyguynca

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 128

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)

LOL

David Mikesell

---

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)

Just don't pull up too much or your wings ma fail!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  

  

  

  

  

 In a message dated 3/12/2008 6:44:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  psm(at)att.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

I    think the only way to safely deal with this issue is to watch 

carefully    for birds and avoid hitting them.  I understand the best 

way to avoid    a head-on collision with a bird is to pull up since they 

always    dive.



Paul

XL fuselage

	


 

  



It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.

  [quote][b]

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)

RE: Bird strike - in my area we see a lot of geese, ducks and swans.  Any one of them can do a lot of damage.  As I said in a different thread, a guy at our airport had a turkey-sized hole punched in the wing of his Beech Sundowner that resulted in the wing being scrapped.



When surprised, Raptors often fold their wings and drop but other birds just do what they can to get out of the way and can't really be predicted (former biologist.)



Regarding the factory demonstrator... didn't they build the wings and fuselage sides back then using 0.016 skins?  Current XL's should be even stronger.



Tim



Do not archive

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)

I personally wished ALL these posts would just stop about accidents and death.  I've been deleting most all of them as I can see this is going nowhere fast.  If my wife was to ever get on line and actually read some of these postings, do you THINK I will ever get her into my aircraft OR let me take any of my grand-kids for a ride??  NO.  Let it go guys until there is some actual ANSWERS and quit putting so much conjecture into it.  

   

  Thank you in advance of this consideration.

  Larry H



skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: 



LOL

David Mikesell

---

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

mwtucker

Joined: 11 Mar 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Charlotte, NC area

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)

Thanks, Rick Lindstrom for your encouraging post regarding the 601XL alleged in-flight wing failures.  I am very encouraged that Zenith may be communicating with us soon....  This is the best news...  I hope it comes to pass and that the Zenith response is comprehensive.



I am planning to ask about it at Sun-n-Fun...  Maybe we'll hear something before then?



Thanks for your input.



Mike

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)

On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 03:11:20PM -0800, Rick Lindstrom wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   >Will this, in fact, reveal the problem in time to avoid a failure?

 Well, I may be obtuse, but I'm not convinced that there is a "problem"

 when the airplane is flown within its design limits.


	


I was referring to your suggestion to rock the wingtips during preflight. If

there's a structural weakness that would result in a failure, would this

procedure reveal it?

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (getting ready to order)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

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