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British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash)
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randy(at)rjhebertassoc.co
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:44 pm    Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash) Reply with quote

I cooked a 20# turkey last Christmas, but I don't think they fly (LOL)
Larry H said it BEST

Give It A Rest




Randall J Hebert

Randall J Hebert & Associates, Inc
Consulting Civil / Structural Engineers
Lafayette, Louisiana
PH 337-261-1976 - FX 337-261-1977

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ernieth(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:20 pm    Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash) Reply with quote

David,I think you are right about our government and how they handle GA accidents.
And I too try to stay out of these things, but I find this an good starting point because of how the facts with this accident are handled by the UK's FAA.


To answer your question.
Did you mean Maneuvering speed or V never to exceed?

Maneuvering speed is designed to be flown beyond in smooth air. We all fly past the designed maneuvering speed (VA). So I think you might have meant, how could anyone know while flying faster than maneuvering speed, the pilot applied greater control inputs to over stress the airframe, if the people in airplane are dead? This was determined in great detail in the report, and is an easy read IMO. Much better than you would ever get from our government since GA problems like this would never be handled in such a professional manner like this report did.
do not archive
e.

On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 4:05 PM, <skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com (skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com)> wrote:
[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: <skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com (skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com)>

You know I really try to stay out of these he said she said things. We all
need to remember this is not a personal issue, it is a design issue. The HD
and HDS have had a great success story with no problems. The XL is showing a
higher number of problems in a much shorter time. That alone would warrant
investigation by the FAA if it was certified, so people asking questions and
wondering is not out of line at all, so there should be no flaming or
personal attacks for people just wantting to be reassured that their
investment won't kill them. Now I want one person, and only one person on
here to explain to me how someone can state that the airplane was flown
beyond its designed manuvering speed when the people on the airplane itself
died. Come on now unless you have some holy than thou power and sit on the
right hand of God............NO ONE CAN TALK TO DEAD PEOPLE. I was on
several investigations for the US Army concerning helicopter accidents. The
rule of thumb for all investigations civil and or military is "if you can
not find a definite iron clad cause, then it must be pilot error". I have
alwasy thought that was unfair, because we have on several occasions found
minor things that as a whole could have caused a accident but the leader of
the investigation team deemed it unimportant as a whole and called it pilot
error. I am sure this happens with the FAA and NTSB on experimental crashes.
The airplanes are not certified so one investigator is sent, he takes 40 or
so pictures and writes a report the same night and to save tax dollars and
his time says "pilot error". Not on any of the accidents did the FAA use the
option of a structual inspection to determine how the failure happened.

David Mikesell
Cloverdale, CA 95425

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Terry Phillips



Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:10 pm    Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash) Reply with quote

I have seen lots of photos of the original and last year's load testing.
See, e.g.,

http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html

But I do not recall ever seeing the report from the "independent structural
engineer." Has this report been published anywhere? Does any one have a
link? Thanks.

Terry
At 04:59 PM 3/12/2008 -0600, you wrote:
Quote:
BTW: the additional structural load test done last year was done by an
independent outsider:

"In order to make absolutely certain nothing is missed, an independent
structural engineer will confirm the findings of these rigorous tests."
http://www.zenithair.com/news/c-heintz-5-10-2007.html

Now you may say that it wasn't really independent since Zenith was paying
for it. But I have a hard time believing a professional would put his names
on a report if he didn't believe it. Ignoring personal integrity, think of
his liability as an independent structural engineer.

-- Craig


Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/


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_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.
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tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:24 pm    Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash) Reply with quote

Nah, shaking the wingtips would reveal nothing about any inherent design flaws, but if there was any sort of fretting or looseness due to undertorqued attach bolts, you'd most likely hear and feel it.

Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, my primary flight instructor always said to give the wingtip a good shake, if for no other reason than to feel better about the integrity of the wing and spar. I still do it out of habit to this day during preflight, no matter what the airplane or spar structure.

Maybe some day I'll actually find a loose wing attachment. Sorry if my comment muddied the waters of the current discussion.

rick

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tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:43 pm    Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash) Reply with quote

Mike, I have no idea what Zenith will say, but I do know that they're aware of the need to address the issue in short order. I'm pretty confident that we'll hear something official well before Sun 'n' Fun.

If not, we can always beat them up there. At least we'll have something interesting to discuss, right?

rick

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notsew_evets(at)frontiern
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:15 pm    Post subject: British 601 Crash (was: 601 Crash) Reply with quote

Once in my 43 years of aviating I did find a sloppy main spar bolt. It
really wasnt the bolt, but "wear" in the hole.
I now, always move the wing tip on a preflight, especially forward and aft.
I ve seen pilots shake the wing tip loke crazy. But, if you gently move the
tip up and down, forward and aft there should be zero slop.
When I first installed the wings on my 601 XL I didnt install the drag spar
bolt. Totally amazed how flimsy the wing was without this one bolt. I
think if the drag spar attach broke or came apart, there would be a real
problem flying...

Steve
Still painting and found more fish eye holes today....

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