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chuck(at)chuckdirect.com
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 Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: Hartzell blended airfoil performance |
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I've got a chance to purchase a brand new Hartzell constant speed that's
been in the box for four years for $4,500. Standard 80" blades.
Van's has a new Hartzell prop with blended air foil type blades for $6,300.
Anyone out there know if the difference in performance between the two
is worth the additional $2,000?
Chuck
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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: Hartzell blended airfoil performance |
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Check,
If my math is right it's $1,800 less, not $2,000. Yes I round
everything too, round down on -10 costs for my wife and round up -10
performance for my friends. The BA is significantly faster while parked
that the square tipped Hartzell.
I THINK the TBO on the BA is 6 years. If that is the case for
the boxed prop you are you 2 years from an OH? I don't know when the
clock starts. I doubt the boxed prop is warranted anymore. If an OH is
due in 2+/- years that makes the price difference even smaller. Baring
any info suggesting the boxed prop is a better then the BA I would
purchase the new, fully warranted BA. Think of it as second guess
insurance. You know, how you may second guess your choice for the
remainder of the time you own the -10.
I have a non-BA Hartzell on my RV-6A and wish it was a brand
spankin' new BA in its place.
Robin
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acs(at)acspropeller.com.a
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:03 pm Post subject: Hartzell blended airfoil performance |
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Hartzell service letter HC-SL-61-61Y extract only:
" C. Calendar Limits
(1) The effects of exposure to the environment over a period of time create
a need for propeller overhaul regardless of flight time.
Corrosion can create hidden defects in critical blade retention components;
therefore, a 36, 60 or 72 calendar month limit between overhauls is
specified.
(2) Start date for calendar limit is when the propeller is first installed
and run on an engine.
Calendar limit is not interrupted by subsequent removal and/or storage "
One thing to check is the full s/n of the hub unit. Make sure it has a "B"
suffix e.g AU12345 B. There are some limiting AD's and SB's on the early
model hubs when bolted to an O/IO-540.
Other than that like Robin says it's significantly faster whilst parked.
John 40315 cowls
"
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GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:09 am Post subject: Hartzell blended airfoil performance |
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In a message dated 3/12/2008 11:32:19 PM Central Daylight Time, robin1(at)mrmoisture.com writes:
| Quote: | | I THINK the TBO on the BA is 6 years. |
Do you know for sure that this suggested TBO date will apply to your experimental aircraft?
It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
[quote][b]
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:52 am Post subject: Hartzell blended airfoil performance |
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FWIW I had a C177RG from 1976 with a McCauley on it. As a private owner there were no required overhauls. My prop was overhauled with first engine overhaul in 1984. Thereafter it was resealed twice due to a "spitting" of grease during operaton. Total time was about 3500 hours over 28 years when I sold the aircraft and no operational problems .
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 5:06 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Hartzell blended airfoil performance
In a message dated 3/12/2008 11:32:19 PM Central Daylight Time, robin1(at)mrmoisture.com writes:
| Quote: | | I THINK the TBO on the BA is 6 years. |
Do you know for sure that this suggested TBO date will apply to your experimental aircraft?
It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:58 am Post subject: Hartzell blended airfoil performance |
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I'm not going to go too far out on a rant on this, but...
"We don't need TSO'd equipment, we're experimental"
"We don't need to meet that FAR 23 requirement, we're experimental"
"That requirement doesn't apply to us, we're experimental"
"We don't need to use Mil Spec parts, we're expermental"
Those kind of things really get under my skin. Sure, there is
truth and we get some good benefits being experimental, and sure
there are lots of good examples of acceptable changes to what
is common in certified planes. But, my stomach turns when
I hear people go on proclaiming how we can build "better"
planes than the certified world, and our planes are faster,
more efficient, and "safer" than certified planes. For probably
the vast majority of the builders, this simply won't be a true
statement....because they decided to cut some corner and
didn't hold themselves up to the same maintenance or
construction standard as the certified plane was built to.
This prop thing in particular?? Well, if I were buying a 4 year
old prop that had sat in a box, I'd probably figure in the
cost of having it inspected and having the o-rings replaced,
unless it had been well sealed and packaged. It's probably
going to be just fine and not need any of that. And I'm
not even saying it needs an overhaul in 2 years...I'm just
reminding everyone that most of the standards that people
have to follow in the certified world are there because
someone's blood was spilled.....and we can't really claim
our planes to be safer or better than certifieds unless
we hold ourselves to the same standards.
This message doesn't necessarily directly apply to the
issue we're discussing....it's more of a general comment.
Still stinging a little from the loss of the 2nd RV-10
pilot out of only 125-ish flying. Wonder what the long
term record will be, when we compare to the certified
world.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com wrote:
| Quote: | In a message dated 3/12/2008 11:32:19 PM Central Daylight Time,
robin1(at)mrmoisture.com writes:
I THINK the TBO on the BA is 6 years.
Do you know for sure that this suggested TBO date will apply to your
experimental aircraft?
|
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:58 am Post subject: Hartzell blended airfoil performance |
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All valid points to ponder.
There is a middle ground with props. It is generally referred to as a
"inspect and reseal", same as any other inspect and repair as necessary.
Cost is normally less than 1/2 price of an overhaul. For a prop that has
been stored, it ensures no corrosion, good lube and good seals, and no
metal needs removal. An overhaul requires metal removal, which shortens
the life of the prop.
Kelly
Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: | I'm not going to go too far out on a rant on this, but...
"That requirement doesn't apply to us, we're experimental"
For probably the vast majority of the builders, this simply won't be
a true
statement....because they decided to cut some corner and
didn't hold themselves up to the same maintenance or
construction standard as the certified plane was built to.
This prop thing in particular?? Well, if I were buying a 4 year
old prop that had sat in a box, I'd probably figure in the
cost of having it inspected and having the o-rings replaced,
unless it had been well sealed and packaged. It's probably
going to be just fine and not need any of that. And I'm
not even saying it needs an overhaul in 2 years....
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: Hartzell blended airfoil performance |
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Yeah, I didn't mean to go off too much in relation to the prop.
I know that if they're cared for, heck, it should last well in
storage and be even better on the blade end than if it were
being flown. Seals go bad though. It was more of a general
thing....not so much this particular prop issue. I just
think we owe it to GA in general to always try to do our best
and not give any black eyes to our homebuilt category.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
Kelly McMullen wrote:
| Quote: |
All valid points to ponder.
There is a middle ground with props. It is generally referred to as a
"inspect and reseal", same as any other inspect and repair as necessary.
Cost is normally less than 1/2 price of an overhaul. For a prop that has
been stored, it ensures no corrosion, good lube and good seals, and no
metal needs removal. An overhaul requires metal removal, which shortens
the life of the prop.
Kelly
Tim Olson wrote:
> I'm not going to go too far out on a rant on this, but...
>
> "That requirement doesn't apply to us, we're experimental"
>
> For probably the vast majority of the builders, this simply won't be
> a true
> statement....because they decided to cut some corner and
> didn't hold themselves up to the same maintenance or
> construction standard as the certified plane was built to.
>
> This prop thing in particular?? Well, if I were buying a 4 year
> old prop that had sat in a box, I'd probably figure in the
> cost of having it inspected and having the o-rings replaced,
> unless it had been well sealed and packaged. It's probably
> going to be just fine and not need any of that. And I'm
> not even saying it needs an overhaul in 2 years....
>
> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>
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GRANSCOTT(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:18 am Post subject: Hartzell blended airfoil performance |
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Tim,
My point being a 91 operation does not need to follow the guideline of commercial operations...we don't do 100 hour inspections, nor are engine or prop TBO a mandatory requirement. I agree it's prudent to do good maintenance and be cautious/careful. You hear folks go on about engine TBO being xxxx hours, when in reality all engine manufacturers also place a time line on the engine for TBO along with hours and which ever occurs first is the TBO for many chapters of operations but not 91. Not buying a prop that's been boxed and if it's been kept in good condition because one believes that a TBO number may apply to an experimental or a part 91 operation does not make sense to me. You can walk down any airport and see props that have not been rebuilt or overhauled in decades and they are perfectly good props eventhough they are beyond TBO...then again some engines will not make it to TBO...ala the Lycoming Crank situation.
I'm not meaning to imply that since it's an experimental to throw all good common sense to the wind...but at least look at the part logically for the mission and aircraft and not to put artifical limits in place that do not apply to the plane and operation.
Heck go back to the person and explain your thinking, maybe they'll buy in and give you the prop for $3k...
P
It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
[quote][b]
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