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Jaybannist(at)cs.com
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 Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject: Accidents |
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This is not humble; but it is my opinion:
It is just not conscionable to condemn an airplane design based purely on hearsay; which is exactly what is happening on this forum. There is absolutely no proof that any of the XL crashes were because of a design flaw or structural deficiency. None. To assert otherwise is quite simply not rational. It is purely emotional speculation. Emotional speculation may be a fun game for some of you, but it is not productive. In fact, it is downright destructive.
The structure of this airplane has been analyzed and load tested twice. The second time, it was monitored by an independent engineer. Do you really believe that a professional engineer would support a faulty analysis or load test?
Larry McFarland and Rick Lindstrom have told us that Zenith is addressing this issue yet another time. Their response is expected before the end of next week. I believe that a rational thinking person would be willing to wait for that response instead of immediately pursuing an emotion-based and ill-founded wild goose chase.
If you don't have confidence in this airplane, Zenith or Chris Heintz, I strongly suggest you do us all a favor: minimize your losses - stop building, or finish it and sell it. And get off this abominable witch hunt!
Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser" [quote][b]
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John75142
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
Posts: 56
Location: Kaufman, TX
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: Accidents |
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I'll second that, It is good the lines of discussion are open on the subject there is really no time spent on this worthwhile until a definitive answer is found. Leave that to the experts.
And while were at it can we change the subject line on the emails at least to read something other than CRASH or ACCIDENT quiet frankly I'm sick of seeing it pop up in my inbox.
Well that's my .02 even though I have no vested interest in this as I am building a 701.
John (Scratch building 701)
Kaufman, Tx
[quote] ---
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Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: Accidents |
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For some actual information I just received an e-mail from a reader of the list who doesn't post and I thought I'd pass it along.
I was posted in the Australian Yahoo Zenith List.
| Quote: | From: Sport Air Services - Zenith Australia <kitaircr>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:29:46 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Tues, Mar 11 2008 11:29 am
Subject: Re: Main Beach Gold Coast Crash
Mr. Harry Mason, a colleague of Garry, has just returned after viewing
the police video footage of the moment of impact with the water.
He is certain and can say without a doubt that the aircraft did not
break up during flight.
To date pieces of Perspex canopy have been found, enough to establish
a direction of flight prior to the aircraft entering the water. It is
the assumption of the police and Mr. Mason that the aircraft most
likely suffered a bird strike, which incapacitated the occupants,
however the police are unable to state that as it 's a coroners
matter.
The other debris was found along with the propeller, in the water where
the impact took place.
It is suffice to say that the aircraft did not suffer a structural in
flight failure as there is no evidence to support that.
The search for the wreckage and bodies is continuing.
Regards,
Liezel |
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W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR |
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MHerder
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Fort Worth TX
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: Accidents |
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I agree Jay, though I must admit that over the past couple days I have gotten caught up in the emotional speculation myself. I now vow to go into my shop, and make lots and lots of aluminum shavings in my pursuit of happiness. I anxiously await Zenith's statement. One other comment I must make is that I would consider myself a good judge of character, not one time have I ever felt as though the folks at Zenith are anything other than honest, hard working down to earth people with a great product.
[quote="Jaybannist(at)cs.com"]This is not humble; but it is my opinion:
It is just not conscionable to condemn an airplane design based purely on hearsay; which is exactly what is happening on this forum. There is absolutely no proof that any of the XL crashes were because of a design flaw or structural deficiency. None. To assert otherwise is quite simply not rational. It is purely emotional speculation. Emotional speculation may be a fun game for some of you, but it is not productive. In fact, it is downright destructive.
The structure of this airplane has been analyzed and load tested twice. The second time, it was monitored by an independent engineer. Do you really believe that a professional engineer would support a faulty analysis or load test?
Larry McFarland and Rick Lindstrom have told us that Zenith is addressing this issue yet another time. Their response is expected before the end of next week. I believe that a rational thinking person would be willing to wait for that response instead of immediately pursuing an emotion-based and ill-founded wild goose chase.
If you don't have confidence in this airplane, Zenith or Chris Heintz, I strongly suggest you do us all a favor: minimize your losses - stop building, or finish it and sell it. And get off this abominable witch hunt!
Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"
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_________________
Zodiac 601 HD
Jabiru 3300
Wood Sensinich 64x47
Finally Flying |
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xl(at)prosody.org
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: Accidents |
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I am an engineer, a Civil PE.
I've done lots of projects.
I worked at Boeing for some 10 years.
I spent lots of time in the shops working with people.
People have emotions. I've seen problems that were
compounded by the feelings. I had to solve the problems.
Sometimes people respond to a perception.
The perception may or may not tell me what is causing the
problem. But the perception is real - to whoever has it.
My job was to look at the problem and fix it. The perceptions
sometimes got in the way. It is hard to solve some problems.
Doubt is a strong motivator.
I have a friend who designs transporters to move big stuff down
the road. Gas turbines and wind generator blades. He learned
his craft on the job. He designs structures that are strong
enough, but not to strong (heavy). He borrowed my CH601XL
plans and analyzed them. His conclusion - it is a +- 6G airplane.
He flys with me regularly.
I am reluctant to go in on the independent analysis. Why?
- what is the scope of the project
- where are the work plan + deliverables
- what is being analyzed
- what is the hypothesis
- what are the consultant's qualifications + background
- who is the project manager
- what are the tasks
- the job could be big
- what about the designer
- shouldn't he be involved
It'd be nice if an aeronautical engineering graduate student
would develop a model and investigate lots of failure modes.
Hey - maybe I should get another degree + do this for the thesis.
You know that the stick can be called a wing removal lever.
I understand the need to be sure. Coming late to flying, it
doesn't come 'naturally' to me. I have to reassure myself alot.
I compensate by telling myself that if I have to think about it
I'll be less likely to make a major mistake.
A good designer wants to do a good job.
We need to have confidence - all of us.
I've flown 633Z for 4 years. I was never concerned that it would fall
apart. I have been concerned about being able to maintain control when
I'm getting thrown around by turbulence - but I just kept flying - fly
the airplane - fly the airplane.
Cheers, Joe E, PhD (piled higher + deeper), PE (professional engineer)
N633Z (at) BFI
CH601XL, 505 hours
Jabiru 3300, 64x49 Sensenich wood prop
http://www.cleanh2o.com/633z/
do not archive
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Terry Phillips
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:11 pm Post subject: Accidents |
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Hi Jay
Thank you for your comments. Apparently you have seen a report by the
professional engineer who monitored the reports. I have been unable to
locate the report. Could I ask you to send me a copy or post a link to the
report so that I can read it also? I would very much like to see the
analysis that was done. Thank you.
Terry Phillips, P.E., retired (I stopped renewing my engineering license
after I retired)
At 08:45 PM 3/13/2008 -0400, you wrote:
| Quote: | The structure of this airplane has been analyzed and load tested twice.
The second time, it was monitored by an independent engineer. Do you
really believe that a professional engineer would support a faulty
analysis or load test?
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Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
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Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings. |
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planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:21 am Post subject: Accidents |
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Jay, you could be exactly right - look at the DC-10. Great airplane but many, many people would not fly in one due to the string of (cause unrelated) catastrophic crashes.
Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:[quote] This is not humble; but it is my opinion:
It is just not conscionable to condemn an airplane design based purely on hearsay; which is exactly what is happening on this forum. There is absolutely no proof that any of the XL crashes were because of a design flaw or structural deficiency. None. To assert otherwise is quite simply not rational. It is purely emotional speculation. Emotional speculation may be a fun game for some of you, but it is not productive. In fact, it is downright destructive.
The structure of this airplane has been analyzed and load tested twice. The second time, it was monitored by an independent engineer. Do you really believe that a professional engineer would support a faulty analysis or load test?
Larry McFarland and Rick Lindstrom have told us that Zenith is addressing this issue yet another time. Their response is expected before the end of next week. I believe that a rational thinking person would be willing to wait for that response instead of immediately pursuing an emotion-based and ill-founded wild goose chase.
If you don't have confidence in this airplane, Zenith or Chris Heintz, I strongly suggest you do us all a favor: minimize your losses - stop building, or finish it and sell it. And get off this abominable witch hunt!
Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser" [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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ashontz
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Accidents |
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Did you see the ultimate cause of the engine mount failures? Workers were occassionally leaving the engine work half done to go eat lunch or do a shift change. Half the engine mount bolts were removed and the engine was supported by the hydraulic jack, which lost pressure over time, slightly lowering the engine enough to crack the engine mounts that were still connected and were taking more weight than they were intended to hold, particularly under a bending moment.
[quote="planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co"]Jay, you could be exactly right - look at the DC-10. Great airplane but many, many people would not fly in one due to the string of (cause unrelated) catastrophic crashes.
Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:[quote] This is not humble; but it is my opinion:
It is just not conscionable to condemn an airplane design based purely on hearsay; which is exactly what is happening on this forum. There is absolutely no proof that any of the XL crashes were because of a design flaw or structural deficiency. None. To assert otherwise is quite simply not rational. It is purely emotional speculation. Emotional speculation may be a fun game for some of you, but it is not productive. In fact, it is downright destructive.
The structure of this airplane has been analyzed and load tested twice. The second time, it was monitored by an independent engineer. Do you really believe that a professional engineer would support a faulty analysis or load test?
Larry McFarland and Rick Lindstrom have told us that Zenith is addressing this issue yet another time. Their response is expected before the end of next week. I believe that a rational thinking person would be willing to wait for that response instead of immediately pursuing an emotion-based and ill-founded wild goose chase.
If you don't have confidence in this airplane, Zenith or Chris Heintz, I strongly suggest you do us all a favor: minimize your losses - stop building, or finish it and sell it. And get off this abominable witch hunt!
Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:35 am Post subject: Accidents |
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that combined with driving a rough bullet through the lug holes ahead of the mount bolt and scoring the fatigue critical lug bores deeply...
ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz"
Did you see the ultimate cause of the engine mount failures? Workers were occassionally leaving the engine work half done to go eat lunch or do a shift change. Half the engine mount bolts were removed and the engine was supported by the hydraulic jack, which lost pressure over time, slightly lowering the engine enough to crack the engine mounts that were still connected and were taking more weight than they were intended to hold, particularly under a bending moment.
[quote="planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co"]Jay, you could be exactly right - look at the DC-10. Great airplane but many, many people would not fly in one due to the string of (cause unrelated) catastrophic crashes.
Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:[quote] This is not humble; but it is my opinion:
It is just not conscionable to condemn an airplane design based purely on hearsay; which is exactly what is happening on this forum. There is absolutely no proof that any of the XL crashes were because of a design flaw or structural deficiency. None. To assert otherwise is quite simply not rational. It is purely emotional speculation. Emotional speculation may be a fun game for some of you, but it is not productive. In fact, it is downright destructive.
The structure of this airplane has been analyzed and load tested twice. The second time, it was monitored by an independent engineer. Do you really believe that a professional engineer would support a faulty analysis or load test?
Larry McFarland and Rick Lindstrom have told us that Zenith is addressing this issue yet another Be a better friend, newshound, and [quote][b]
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