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flywrights(at)yahoo.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: Door fit |
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All,
I've been looking at the way my doors fit to the canopy and am wondering, "Since I did as good a job as I could, including clamping everything flush while the epoxy set, then why do I have a slight bulge on one door in relation to the canopy," and, "should everything look perfect as a result of trimming, or should I naturally be expecting to add some filler between the canopy and doors to make everything smooth and ready for paint?"
Reading through other websites, they're written up to seem like masters of the fiberglass trimming, and once trimmed and glued they're ready for the paint booth after a coat of primer on.
Thoughts and pointers?
Rob Wright
#392
starting on door hinges
Be a better friend, newshound, and [quote][b]
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ron.mcgann(at)baesystems. Guest
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Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: Door fit |
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YMMV - but ". . . should I naturally be expecting to add some filler between the canopy and doors to make everything smooth and ready for paint?" is where I ended up. Especially after the door seals were installed.
cheers,
Ron
187 finishing
[quote] From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Wright
Sent: Thursday, 13 March 2008 2:41 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Door fit
All,
I've been looking at the way my doors fit to the canopy and am wondering, "Since I did as good a job as I could, including clamping everything flush while the epoxy set, then why do I have a slight bulge on one door in relation to the canopy," and, "should everything look perfect as a result of trimming, or should I naturally be expecting to add some filler between the canopy and doors to make everything smooth and ready for paint?"
Reading through other websites, they're written up to seem like masters of the fiberglass trimming, and once trimmed and glued they're ready for the paint booth after a coat of primer on.
Thoughts and pointers?
Rob Wright
#392
starting on door hinges
Be a better friend, newshound, and "Warning:
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Deems Davis
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 925
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Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: Door fit |
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Rob, My experience was certainly Not ' cut/glue/hang/ it was more
like... cut/glue/hang/fill/sand/hang/fill/sand/hang/fill/sand..........
you get the picture.
http://deemsrv10.com/cabinwindowslogindex.html
I'm NO master of fiberglass / epoxy, the good news is you really
don't have to be, other than it being messy and sticky, there's not too
much you can do w/ fiberglass that can't be corrected if you goof up. In
the end (I haven't installed door seals yet ....?) I'm happy with the
fit of the doors to the cabin cover. But it took a LOT of additional
work. A lot of it depends on you own taste and preferences, Van's
fiberglass parts are not made with the same precision as the CNC metal
parts. I'm sure that they all possess the required strength to do their
respective functions. The additional work is really a mater of cosmetics
and your personal preferences.
Deems Davis # 406
'Its all done....Its just not put together'
http://deemsrv10.com/
Robert Wright wrote:
Quote: | All,
I've been looking at the way my doors fit to the canopy and am
wondering, "Since I did as good a job as I could, including clamping
everything flush while the epoxy set, then why do I have a slight
bulge on one door in relation to the canopy," and, "should everything
look perfect as a result of trimming, or should I naturally be
expecting to add some filler between the canopy and doors to make
everything smooth and ready for paint?"
Reading through other websites, they're written up to seem like
masters of the fiberglass trimming, and once trimmed and glued they're
ready for the paint booth after a coat of primer on.
Thoughts and pointers?
*
*
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acs(at)acspropeller.com.a Guest
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Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:03 pm Post subject: Door fit |
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Rob, I was very careful as well but in the end you could fit a small animal between the door and the canopy.
I ended up fibreglassing my doors shut and then creating and molding the canopy to the door with a gentle transition.
Finally I re-cut the original opening back through. Wasted a lot of time on this and agonized over it way too much and in the end it was simple enough to fix.
I also removed the small animal so it didn’t suffocate because the doors were now airtight.
John 40315 Cowls.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Wright
Sent: Thursday, 13 March 2008 2:11 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Door fit
All,
I've been looking at the way my doors fit to the canopy and am wondering, "Since I did as good a job as I could, including clamping everything flush while the epoxy set, then why do I have a slight bulge on one door in relation to the canopy," and, "should everything look perfect as a result of trimming, or should I naturally be expecting to add some filler between the canopy and doors to make everything smooth and ready for paint?"
Reading through other websites, they're written up to seem like masters of the fiberglass trimming, and once trimmed and glued they're ready for the paint booth after a coat of primer on.
Thoughts and pointers?
Rob Wright
#392
starting on door hinges
Be a better friend, newshound, and 0123456789
[quote][b]
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dc71(at)netspace.net.au Guest
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:47 am Post subject: Door fit |
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Now we all come out of hiding...
The gap between my first set of doors & the canopy was more than the allowable small animal.
Have recently taken delivery of a new set of door shells. The local FG aeroplane guru will be supervising the second set over Easter - has already suggested many changes to the procedure in the Van's manual, such as clecoing the shells all the way around the perimeter; heat gun to remove any bending stress before joining; and totally ignoring the preformed dimples.
As a side note, the new pink layups are better surface quality than the old green ones.
Will post more info (&pics) when doors done.
Indran
#228 - soon to be a four door RV10
On 13/03/2008, at 3:55 PM, John Dunne wrote:
Quote: | Rob, I was very careful as well but in the end you could fit a small animal between the door and the canopy.
I ended up fibreglassing my doors shut and then creating and molding the canopy to the door with a gentle transition.
Finally I re-cut the original opening back through. Wasted a lot of time on this and agonized over it way too much and in the end it was simple enough to fix.
I also removed the small animal so it didn’t suffocate because the doors were now airtight.
John 40315 Cowls.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Robert Wright
Sent: Thursday, 13 March 2008 2:11 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Door fit
All,
I've been looking at the way my doors fit to the canopy and am wondering, "Since I did as good a job as I could, including clamping everything flush while the epoxy set, then why do I have a slight bulge on one door in relation to the canopy," and, "should everything look perfect as a result of trimming, or should I naturally be expecting to add some filler between the canopy and doors to make everything smooth and ready for paint?"
Reading through other websites, they're written up to seem like masters of the fiberglass trimming, and once trimmed and glued they're ready for the paint booth after a coat of primer on.
Thoughts and pointers?
Rob Wright
#392
starting on door hinges
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Quote: | - The RV10-List Email Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ---> http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. | 01
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roadmaps
Joined: 08 Nov 2007 Posts: 49
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:57 am Post subject: Door fit |
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Rob,
I spent countless hours getting the doors to fit well - and them countless more after the seals were installed. I even had the doors painted first, final installed seals and then filled/sanded the canopy before painting. As my partner is working on a second plane we are thinking of using a square rabbit in the canopy for the door edge to fit into instead of the 45 degree angle. This would avoid the thin door edge. Anyone else done this?
John Testement
jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com (jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com)
40321
Richmond, VA
Painting
// All,
I've been looking at the way my doors fit to the canopy and am wondering, "Since I did as good a job as I could, including clamping everything flush while the epoxy set, then why do I have a slight bulge on one door in relation to the canopy," and, "should everything look perfect as a result of trimming, or should I naturally be expecting to add some filler between the canopy and doors to make everything smooth and ready for paint?"
Reading through other websites, they're written up to seem like masters of the fiberglass trimming, and once trimmed and glued they're ready for the paint booth after a coat of primer on.
Thoughts and pointers?
Checked by AVG.
3/12/2008 1:27 PM
[quote][b]
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Nick Leonard
Joined: 18 Jun 2007 Posts: 35 Location: Sacramento, CA
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Door fit |
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Fitting the doors...certainly one of my favorite parts of the construction process. After countless hours of trying to get a decent fit just to get them to close (no seals yet), while the whole time my hangar mate (who's building an RV-8A) keeps coming over and saying that they are good enough, just move on. "Go look at a Cirrus and see the quality that they do" was his encouragement to stop "wasting" my time. So I did and it was an eye opener. I was absolutely amazed at not just the size of the gap, especially along the front and top edges, but the inconsistency of the gap. It was embarrassing to think that someone paid almost 1/2 million dollars for that kind of workmanship.
So I know that I will have a lot more work to do when I add the seals and it will end up ten time better than the Cirrus. It doesn't have to be a paper thickness sized gap to be functional and attractive.
Now, on to putting in the windows...I really am missing squeezing rivets!
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_________________ Nick Leonard
RV-10 (40015) Flying |
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Jim Berry
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 237 Location: Denver
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:57 am Post subject: Re: Door fit |
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John,
I did what you are considering, and really like the results. I did not like the fragility of a 45 degree edge on the doors, and found the inconsistent rolled edge on the canopy impossible to trim to. So I squared off the door edges using the double layer of masking tape method to trim the door edges about 1/16 inch inside the canopy edge. When fitting the doors I focused on getting the bottom edge of each door properly aligned with the fuselage skin, as this was an area I did not want to use flox or micro. There were spots where the door side edges stood proud of the canopy edge, but that was OK because I knew that some of the window edges were going to be proud of the canopy also. Once the windows were installed, the canopy surface was built up with a flox/micro mix to match the window and door surface and a new canopy edge was created to match the squared off door edge. The result is a solid door edge and a nice, consistant matching edge for the canopy door opening.
Jim Berry
40482
N15JB(reserved)
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orchidman
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 277 Location: Oklahoma City - KRCE
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Door fit |
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jim berry wrote: | John,
The result is a solid door edge and a nice, consistant matching edge for the canopy door opening. |
Jim, any chance in seeing some pictures?
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_________________ Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
(N2GB Flying) |
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Jim Berry
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 237 Location: Denver
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Door fit |
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Gary,
Sorry, I did not take any pics.
Jim Berry
40482
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toaster73(at)embarqmail.c Guest
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: Door fit |
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Robert,
Someone wrote before that "the fit is right when you are tired of sanding and re-filling and sanding" perhaps that was Deems. I made a couple of mods to the process for initial fit.
1) I glued (with super glue) two strips of trimmed door glass to the outside of the door, fore and aft where the two protruding alignment tabs are. I match drilled through the tabs into the glued on piece. THen I cut the tabs off. That allowed the door to begin its journey into flush fit with the canopy. As I took the door on and off it would go pretty much right back to where it was every time. See photo.
2) After I got the fit pretty darn good I mixed a thick epoxy/flox and spread it over the door and cabin top at the joint until I had a nice surface together. I did this just in a couple of areas that were troublesome. This mixture would not flow at all and this was with hinges on but no door seal. I then lifted the door open slightly so it wouldn't all glue together. Yes, it did pull a little ridge of the mix up but not much if done careful.
After it dried I just knocked of the ridge with the sanding block and I have a razor like fit. This is with a 45 degree style door. I also coated the 45 degree portion of the door with pure epoxy to give it durability.
I'll revisit the fit with the door seals on, those just arrived . I am trying the ones from Aviation Tech Products.
The alignment tabs supe glued on are easy to pop right off and then sand away the residue. Don't need much glue either just a couple drops.
-Chris
#40072
[quote] ---
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acs(at)acspropeller.com.a Guest
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Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:41 pm Post subject: Door fit |
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Hi Indran, good to see you’re still plugging away.
I suppose I should clarify what I meant by “small animal” in case someone gets the idea it’s O.K to have a gap the size of a beaver.
My gap was more like 4 to 5mm at the worst spot.
For what it’s worth, the fit was good prior to the window installation.
John 40315
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Indran Chelvanayagam
Sent: Thursday, 13 March 2008 10:44 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Door fit
Now we all come out of hiding...
The gap between my first set of doors & the canopy was more than the allowable small animal.
Have recently taken delivery of a new set of door shells. The local FG aeroplane guru will be supervising the second set over Easter - has already suggested many changes to the procedure in the Van's manual, such as clecoing the shells all the way around the perimeter; heat gun to remove any bending stress before joining; and totally ignoring the preformed dimples.
As a side note, the new pink layups are better surface quality than the old green ones.
Will post more info (&pics) when doors done.
Indran
#228 - soon to be a four door RV10
On 13/03/2008, at 3:55 PM, John Dunne wrote:
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>
Rob, I was very careful as well but in the end you could fit a small animal between the door and the canopy.
I ended up fibreglassing my doors shut and then creating and molding the canopy to the door with a gentle transition.
Finally I re-cut the original opening back through. Wasted a lot of time on this and agonized over it way too much and in the end it was simple enough to fix.
I also removed the small animal so it didn’t suffocate because the doors were now airtight.
John 40315 Cowls.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Robert Wright
Sent: Thursday, 13 March 2008 2:11 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Door fit
All,
I've been looking at the way my doors fit to the canopy and am wondering, "Since I did as good a job as I could, including clamping everything flush while the epoxy set, then why do I have a slight bulge on one door in relation to the canopy," and, "should everything look perfect as a result of trimming, or should I naturally be expecting to add some filler between the canopy and doors to make everything smooth and ready for paint?"
Reading through other websites, they're written up to seem like masters of the fiberglass trimming, and once trimmed and glued they're ready for the paint booth after a coat of primer on.
Thoughts and pointers?
Rob Wright
#392
starting on door hinges
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Quote: | - The RV10-List Email Forum - |
[quote][b]
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rvreynolds(at)macs.net Guest
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Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:22 am Post subject: Door fit |
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John,
We put a 1/8 square rabbit in the canopy door frame. it made the door very easy to fit. Make it deep enough for the thickest part of the door. Be careful when trimming the canopy frame in way of the aluminum fuselage frame.
Please note!
After trimming the door to the factory scribe lines, take equal amounts off the forward and aft edges. The temptation is after getting one edge to fit, removing the remainder from the other edge. DON'T, because it makes the inside "jam" unequal. (Ask me how I know)
Also, the top of the canopy door frame really does not need the rabbit, The top edge of the door WILL require a bevel to open properly!
Richard Reynolds
On Mar 13, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Testement wrote:
[quote] Rob,
I spent countless hours getting the doors to fit well - and them countless more after the seals were installed. I even had the doors painted first, final installed seals and then filled/sanded the canopy before painting. As my partner is working on a second plane we are thinking of using a square rabbit in the canopy for the door edge to fit into instead of the 45 degree angle. This would avoid the thin door edge. Anyone else done this?
John Testement
jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com (jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com)
40321
Richmond, VA
Painting
// All,
I've been looking at the way my doors fit to the canopy and am wondering, "Since I did as good a job as I could, including clamping everything flush while the epoxy set, then why do I have a slight bulge on one door in relation to the canopy," and, "should everything look perfect as a result of trimming, or should I naturally be expecting to add some filler between the canopy and doors to make everything smooth and ready for paint?"
Reading through other websites, they're written up to seem like masters of the fiberglass trimming, and once trimmed and glued they're ready for the paint booth after a coat of primer on.
Thoughts and pointers?
Checked by AVG.
3/12/2008 1:27 PM
Quote: |
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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roadmaps
Joined: 08 Nov 2007 Posts: 49
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Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:58 am Post subject: Door fit |
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Richard,
I really like this idea - how did you make the rabbit? Router? How did you guide it around the frame?
John Testement
jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com (jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com)
40321
Richmond, VA
Painting
do not archive
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Reynolds
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 7:19 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Door fit
John,
We put a 1/8 square rabbit in the canopy door frame. it made the door very easy to fit. Make it deep enough for the thickest part of the door. Be careful when trimming the canopy frame in way of the aluminum fuselage frame.
Please note!
After trimming the door to the factory scribe lines, take equal amounts off the forward and aft edges. The temptation is after getting one edge to fit, removing the remainder from the other edge. DON'T, because it makes the inside "jam" unequal. (Ask me how I know)
Also, the top of the canopy door frame really does not need the rabbit, The top edge of the door WILL require a bevel to open properly!
Richard Reynolds
On Mar 13, 2008, at 8:54 AM, John Testement wrote:
Quote: | Rob,
I spent countless hours getting the doors to fit well - and them countless more after the seals were installed. I even had the doors painted first, final installed seals and then filled/sanded the canopy before painting. As my partner is working on a second plane we are thinking of using a square rabbit in the canopy for the door edge to fit into instead of the 45 degree angle. This would avoid the thin door edge. Anyone else done this?
John Testement
jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com (jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com)
40321
Richmond, VA
Painting
// All,
I've been looking at the way my doors fit to the canopy and am wondering, "Since I did as good a job as I could, including clamping everything flush while the epoxy set, then why do I have a slight bulge on one door in relation to the canopy," and, "should everything look perfect as a result of trimming, or should I naturally be expecting to add some filler between the canopy and doors to make everything smooth and ready for paint?"
Reading through other websites, they're written up to seem like masters of the fiberglass trimming, and once trimmed and glued they're ready for the paint booth after a coat of primer on.
Thoughts and pointers?
Checked by AVG.
3/12/2008 1:27 PM
Quote: |
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3/12/2008 1:27 PM
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davelammers(at)mchsi.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:41 am Post subject: Door fit |
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John,
Did you do the window install with the door on, or off, the fuselage?
If off, do you think that the post install fit issue could have been reduced if the install were made with the door on the fuselage?
Thanks,
Dave Lammers
finishing
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Hi Indran, good to see you’re still plugging away.
I suppose I should clarify what I meant by “small animal” in case someone gets the idea it’s O.K to have a gap the size of a beaver.
My gap was more like 4 to 5mm at the worst spot.
For what it’s worth, the fit was good prior to the window installation.
John 40315
[b]
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Jim Berry
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 237 Location: Denver
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Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Door fit |
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I will be interested to hear how Richard created a 1/8 inch rabbet, but in the mean time I can suggest an alternative. If you trim the door edge square so that it sits slightly inside the curved portion of the canopy edge, the door edge can serve as a mold for creating the rabbet. The inner edge of the door should be just tangent to the radius of the canopy edge. Once you have the windows installed, apply 2 layers of release tape(packing tape) to the edge of the doors. You should have all door locking hardware installed and adjusted to final fit. Close the doors and lock them in place. Trowel on a mix of flox/micro to the canopy top so it fills the gap between the door edge and the canopy. After it cures, open the doors and remove the packing tape. You will be left with a rabbet that exactly matches your door edge, and should require very little clean up. Also, I would suggest installing the door windows with the doors mounted on the canopy.
Jim Berry
40482
N15JB(reserved)
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ricksked(at)embarqmail.co Guest
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KiloPapa
Joined: 24 May 2006 Posts: 142 Location: Pearblossom, CA
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Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:55 am Post subject: Door fit |
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General door fitting questions:
Are you installing the door seals prior to painting? If so,
why?
Is it necessary to have the seal installed during the door
fitting process? If so, why?
Thanks,
Kevin
40494
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_________________ Kevin
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KiloPapa
Joined: 24 May 2006 Posts: 142 Location: Pearblossom, CA
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Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: Door fit |
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Chris,
Is the seal from ATP hollow? Will you be mounting it
temporarily at this fitting check, assuming pre-paint? Is
the choice of door seal necessary to know at the time of
door fitting?
Thanks,
Kevin
40494
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----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Chris" <toaster73(at)embarqmail.com>
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Door fit
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 22:01:35 -0400
....and this was with hinges on but no door seal.
....I'll revisit the fit with the door seals on, those just
arrived . I am trying the ones from Aviation Tech Products.
-Chris
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acs(at)acspropeller.com.a Guest
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Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: Door fit |
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Dave, I did the window install on the fuse. It was a very hot day if I recall (36C around 100F) and the weld-on went off very quickly...too quickly for my liking but my figuring on a hot day was the plexi was more pliable and less likely to suffer any cracks. I must admit, I came back a few days later and removed the doors and it wasn't until I re-installed them some weeks later that I actually noticed the problem.
It had me a little perplexed as I'd think it unlikely the bowing would have been caused by the window install and curing process. My initial thoughts were that I didn't have the doors back in their exact position when re-installed but in the end I figured a few people were suffering a similar result albeit no-one was really openly discussing it and the finer finish work was my responsibility in any case. Like I previously stated I wasted far to much time on this and it only annoyed me because all the metal work up until that point was precise and a pleasure to work on. Once I got over the "take it from the box and fit it" mentality I started to enjoy the flexibility of the glass work and the ease with which you can fix mistakes.
John 40315
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