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Rick Galati
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 91
Location: Lake St. Louis MO.
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 Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: The Ethanol Fantasy |
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The use of ethanol is inextricably linked to political pressure that comes from many well heeled persons and corporations driven by an agenda and glossly sold to a gullible, if well meaning public. I am beginning to wonder if former President Jimmy Carter had it right all along. While in office, he stated that growing food crops to produce ethanol fuel was a morally wrong thing to do. Given that some experts today believe that the world will soon experience global food shortages, perhaps it is time to revisit President Carter's unpopular view. Imagine a world in which food competes with fuel. That is a very real prospect and only the seriously delusional will believe that a full fuel tank is worth more than a hungry belly fueled with anger. Already, corn to ethanol is driving an alarming increase in the price of corn products and the result can be seen in the cereal aisle of any supermarket in the country. But that is only the beginning. Certainly, you are free to agree or disagree with Carter's position, politics does have a way of polarizing people but the irrefutable and undeniable fact is this and this fact is golden: If every single ear of corn produced in this country destined for human consumption was diverted for ethanol production, that production would account for only 7% of the fuel energy consumed by Americans. In addition, some would argue that simply producing a gallon of ethanol consumes more energy than a gallon of ethanol produces. If we as a country met that 7% offset, that means no corn flakes, no corn syrup, no corn casseroles, not even corn on the cob. That seems a very high price to pay for a fuel that will never live up to the hype. But don't tell that to Congress or the corn lobby. They just don't want to hear it. [quote][b]
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n212pj(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: The Ethanol Fantasy |
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A very good read is "The Omnivore's Dilemma." Puts the whole corn thing into perspective.
[quote] From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Galati
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 12:32 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: The Ethanol Fantasy
The use of ethanol is inextricably linked to political pressure that comes from many well heeled persons and corporations driven by an agenda and glossly sold to a gullible, if well meaning public. I am beginning to wonder if former President Jimmy Carter had it right all along. While in office, he stated that growing food crops to produce ethanol fuel was a morally wrong thing to do. Given that some experts today believe that the world will soon experience global food shortages, perhaps it is time to revisit President Carter's unpopular view. Imagine a world in which food competes with fuel. That is a very real prospect and only the seriously delusional will believe that a full fuel tank is worth more than a hungry belly fueled with anger. Already, corn to ethanol is driving an alarming increase in the price of corn products and the result can be seen in the cereal aisle of any supermarket in the country. But that is only the beginning. Certainly, you are free to agree or disagree with Carter's position, politics does have a way of polarizing people but the irrefutable and undeniable fact is this and this fact is golden: If every single ear of corn produced in this country destined for human consumption was diverted for ethanol production, that production would account for only 7% of the fuel energy consumed by Americans. In addition, some would argue that simply producing a gallon of ethanol consumes more energy than a gallon of ethanol produces. If we as a country met that 7% offset, that means no corn flakes, no corn syrup, no corn casseroles, not even corn on the cob. That seems a very high price to pay for a fuel that will never live up to the hype. But don't tell that to Congress or the corn lobby. They just don't want to hear it. | Quote: |
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:51 pm Post subject: The Ethanol Fantasy |
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In Oregon, a state I serves as Legislative Affairs for the Oregon Pilots Association for , the governor was in bed with a single source distillery for Ethanol and a single lobby group to fund his 2004 re-election campaign. The bill in 2005 died in committee, In 2007 it was a “Must Pass” at the direction of the governor (through is Department of Agriculture). Oregon doesn’t currently have enough grain to comply with the mandate but that did not stop the Petroleum Institute and their lobbyist from greasing the gears. We pay and subsidize the diesel fuel to truck the grain into the state. The theory was to keep tax dollars within the state. The Summer of 2008 should show the availability of proper fuel supply and the “Rightness” of the Green Legislation.
The more important question is what steps should we do to allow Ethanol combustion with Owner Built and Maintained Aircraft. Someone recently said to do a Proseal dilution test with Ethanol and report the findings. Many of us have yet to hear what could be improved on during construction to deal with the Mandated Ethanol fuel. It is only a question of time before 100LL goes away.
John Cox
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 12:58 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: The Ethanol Fantasy
A very good read is "The Omnivore's Dilemma." Puts the whole corn thing into perspective. [quote]
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Galati
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 12:32 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: The Ethanol Fantasy
The use of ethanol is inextricably linked to political pressure that comes from many well heeled persons and corporations driven by an agenda and glossly sold to a gullible, if well meaning public. I am beginning to wonder if former President Jimmy Carter had it right all along. While in office, he stated that growing food crops to produce ethanol fuel was a morally wrong thing to do. Given that some experts today believe that the world will soon experience global food shortages, perhaps it is time to revisit President Carter's unpopular view. Imagine a world in which food competes with fuel. That is a very real prospect and only the seriously delusional will believe that a full fuel tank is worth more than a hungry belly fueled with anger. Already, corn to ethanol is driving an alarming increase in the price of corn products and the result can be seen in the cereal aisle of any supermarket in the country. But that is only the beginning. Certainly, you are free to agree or disagree with Carter's position, politics does have a way of polarizing people but the irrefutable and undeniable fact is this and this fact is golden: If every single ear of corn produced in this country destined for human consumption was diverted for ethanol production, that production would account for only 7% of the fuel energy consumed by Americans. In addition, some would argue that simply producing a gallon of ethanol consumes more energy than a gallon of ethanol produces. If we as a country met that 7% offset, that means no corn flakes, no corn syrup, no corn casseroles, not even corn on the cob. That seems a very high price to pay for a fuel that will never live up to the hype. But don't tell that to Congress or the corn lobby. They just don't want to hear it. | Quote: | | href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c |
[b]
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tracy(at)rotaryaviation.c
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: The Ethanol Fantasy |
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FWIW, This is not a formal test but I have burned mostly auto fuel (some of which contained ethanol) over the past 14 years. The sloshing compound (no longer recommended by Van's) turned to mush and clogged filters a couple of times. Fortunately I noticed falling fuel pressure and caught it before the fan quit turning. Proseal has been unaffected so far.
Tracy Crook
Mazda powered RV-4, 1600+ hrs.
On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 5:48 PM, John W. Cox <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)> wrote:
[quote]
In Oregon, a state I serves as Legislative Affairs for the Oregon Pilots Association for , the governor was in bed with a single source distillery for Ethanol and a single lobby group to fund his 2004 re-election campaign. The bill in 2005 died in committee, In 2007 it was a "Must Pass" at the direction of the governor (through is Department of Agriculture). Oregon doesn't currently have enough grain to comply with the mandate but that did not stop the Petroleum Institute and their lobbyist from greasing the gears. We pay and subsidize the diesel fuel to truck the grain into the state. The theory was to keep tax dollars within the state. The Summer of 2008 should show the availability of proper fuel supply and the "Rightness" of the Green Legislation.
The more important question is what steps should we do to allow Ethanol combustion with Owner Built and Maintained Aircraft. Someone recently said to do a Proseal dilution test with Ethanol and report the findings. Many of us have yet to hear what could be improved on during construction to deal with the Mandated Ethanol fuel. It is only a question of time before 100LL goes away.
John Cox
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of John Jessen
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 12:58 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: The Ethanol Fantasy
A very good read is "The Omnivore's Dilemma." Puts the whole corn thing into perspective. | Quote: |
From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Rick Galati
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2008 12:32 PM
To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: The Ethanol Fantasy
The use of ethanol is inextricably linked to political pressure that comes from many well heeled persons and corporations driven by an agenda and glossly sold to a gullible, if well meaning public. I am beginning to wonder if former President Jimmy Carter had it right all along. While in office, he stated that growing food crops to produce ethanol fuel was a morally wrong thing to do. Given that some experts today believe that the world will soon experience global food shortages, perhaps it is time to revisit President Carter's unpopular view. Imagine a world in which food competes with fuel. That is a very real prospect and only the seriously delusional will believe that a full fuel tank is worth more than a hungry belly fueled with anger. Already, corn to ethanol is driving an alarming increase in the price of corn products and the result can be seen in the cereal aisle of any supermarket in the country. But that is only the beginning. Certainly, you are free to agree or disagree with Carter's position, politics does have a way of polarizing people but the irrefutable and undeniable fact is this and this fact is golden: If every single ear of corn produced in this country destined for human consumption was diverted for ethanol production, that production would account for only 7% of the fuel energy consumed by Americans. In addition, some would argue that simply producing a gallon of ethanol consumes more energy than a gallon of ethanol produces. If we as a country met that 7% offset, that means no corn flakes, no corn syrup, no corn casseroles, not even corn on the cob. That seems a very high price to pay for a fuel that will never live up to the hype. But don't tell that to Congress or the corn lobby. They just don't want to hear it. |
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jfogarty(at)tds.net
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: The Ethanol Fantasy |
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If the Wright Bros had never flew the first plane would we be flying today? Guys, it's not about the ethanol, it is about the dream of making our world a better place for the next generation. It's about the opportunity to fly your plane on a beautiful day because the Wright Bros had this dream of flight. Look at this link: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1983190/posts
Look further down the road and just maybe something will come out of the research that will make our planes fly for less or even better.
Jim Fogarty
RV9A Builder MN
[quote] ---
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rscott(at)cascadeaccess.c
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: The Ethanol Fantasy |
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There is so much wrong with ethanol that it is disgusting that the state of Oregon has bent over backwards to impose the stuff on the populace.
We all know about the food impacts. There is also the fertilizer problem--corn requires more fertilizer than almost any other crop. Fertilizer goes down the Mississippi and contributes to a massive dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico. And natural gas is used to make fertilizer; natural gas is not renewable. Ethanol can't go through the petroleum pipelines, so it is trucked to the pipeline terminals where it is mixed as it is put into the truck.
Then there is the energy balance question, which seems to have research supporting both sides. However, not included in any of the research is the loss of gas mileage you get when your burn ethanol. Theory suggests that since ethanol has 70% as much energy per gallon as gasoline you would have a 3% loss of mileage with a 10% ethanol fuel. Experience says this is not the case.
I had seen about a 6% loss of mileage in both our vehicles when burning ethanol, but some had claimed as much as a 15% loss. I was skeptical, but now I am not. I recently drove to Colorado to pick up a Lycoming for my RV. With ethanol in Oregon's gas and 65 mph speed limits, I got 15.9 mpg. Outside Oregon, with 75 mph speed limits, I got 18.4 mpg. The higher speeds should have produced a lower mpg. Others have reported similar results but different in magnitude, some higher, some lower mpg loss. I have not seen anyone claim higher mileage with ethanol. These gas mileage losses have not been included in energy balance studies. One expert suggested that ethanol might change the burning characteristics of the blend and might cool things down, giving less power.
Suppose we average a 5% loss of mileage. Then we only get a 5% reduction in oil imports, not the 10% that advocates claim. Are all the impacts worth it?
Watch your legislatures and stop this virus before your state gets suckered into the ethanol fad.
Richard Scott
[quote][b]
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n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: The Ethanol Fantasy |
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The BTU content in alcohol is less then gas per given unit. Ethanol is about 71% of gas and Methanol is about 56%. During my racing days I ran dirt track sprint cars both with a gas motor and an alky motor. Gas motor was 10-15 % less powerful then the Methanol motors, The Alky motors needed just under twice as much fuel to run the same length race. 40 laps on a 1/3 mile track burned 25 or so gallons of methanol including all the yellow flag laps. This same race could have been run on 14 gallons of racing gas... Pick your poison...
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- RScott <rscott(at)cascadeaccess.com> wrote:
There is so much wrong with ethanol that it is disgusting that the state of Oregon has bent over backwards to impose the stuff on the populace.
We all know about the food impacts. There is also the fertilizer problem--corn requires more fertilizer than almost any other crop. Fertilizer goes down the Mississippi and contributes to a massive dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico. And natural gas is used to make fertilizer; natural gas is not renewable. Ethanol can't go through the petroleum pipelines, so it is trucked to the pipeline terminals where it is mixed as it is put into the truck.
Then there is the energy balance question, which seems to have research supporting both sides. However, not included in any of the research is the loss of gas mileage you get when your burn ethanol. Theory suggests that since ethanol has 70% as much energy per gallon as gasoline you would have a 3% loss of mileage with a 10% ethanol fuel. Experience says this is not the case.
I had seen about a 6% loss of mileage in both our vehicles when burning ethanol, but some had claimed as much as a 15% loss. I was skeptical, but now I am not. I recently drove to Colorado to pick up a Lycoming for my RV. With ethanol in Oregon's gas and 65 mph speed limits, I got 15.9 mpg. Outside Oregon, with 75 mph speed limits, I got 18.4 mpg. The higher speeds should have produced a lower mpg. Others have reported similar results but different in magnitude, some higher, some lower mpg loss. I have not seen anyone claim higher mileage with ethanol. These gas mileage losses have not been included in energy balance studies. One expert suggested that ethanol might change the burning characteristics of the blend and might cool things down, giving less power.
Suppose we average a 5% loss of mileage. Then we only get a 5% reduction in oil imports, not the 10% that advocates claim. Are all the impacts worth it?
Watch your legislatures and stop this virus before your state gets suckered into the ethanol fad.
Richard Scott
_____________________________________________________________
Largest network of startups. Find new startup opportunities. Click here.
[quote][b]
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kbob(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:34 am Post subject: The Ethanol Fantasy |
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Something else to keep in mind when running ethanol blend in our cars &
trucks...
Our pollution control systems are not tuned for ethanol. The exhaust
monitoring oxygen sensor is affected. It senses the cumbustion byproducts
have more oxygen in them (found in the ethanol) and computer says 'hey, I
need more fuel, we are not getting complete combustion'. The fuel injection
system gets on it and dumps more fuel in. You are now running ROP, not LOP.
The only bonus - you do make a little more HP, kind of like a poor mans
nitrous oxide system.
Kelly Patterson
RV-6A N716K ~200 hrs
PHX, AZ relocating to Denver soon
do not archive
| Quote: |
Then there is the energy balance question, which seems to have research
supporting both sides. However, not included in any of the research is
the loss of gas mileage you get when your burn ethanol. Theory suggests
that since ethanol has 70% as much energy per gallon as gasoline you wo
uld have a 3% loss of mileage with a 10% ethanol fuel. Experience says
this is not the case.
I had seen about a 6% loss of mileage in both our vehicles when burning
ethanol, but some had claimed as much as a 15% loss. I was skeptical, b
ut now I am not. I recently drove to Colorado to pick up a Lycoming for
my RV. With ethanol in Oregon's gas and 65 mph speed limits, I got 15.
9 mpg. Outside Oregon, with 75 mph speed limits, I got 18.4 mpg. The h
igher speeds should have produced a lower mpg. Others have reported sim
ilar results but different in magnitude, some higher, some lower mpg los
s. I have not seen anyone claim higher mileage with ethanol. These gas
mileage losses have not been included in energy balance studies. One e
xpert suggested that ethanol might change the burning characteristics of
the blend and might cool things down, giving less power.
|
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