Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Accident
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 7:35 am Post subject: Re: Accident

Bill, I'm sorry you took my reply as ambivalence. It isn't. I simply was trying to communicate how issues like the one that MAY be effecting the 601XL have been dealt with in certified aircraft without major or even minor design changes. SFAR 73 being one of the more extreme examples.



For those not familiar with SFAR 73  it was a regulation requireing additional training for those flying Robinson R22 and R44 helicopters. It was to deal with an issue that could result from taking the helicopters into a negative G condition



 	  thesumak(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  Thanks for your response Gig.ï¿½  From what Rick and Mark say, it appears that the Zenith folks do not share in your ambivalence concerning a possible problem with elevator authority in the XL.   I canâ€™t predict the future, but I would not be surprised if Zenith offers a mod that is something along the lines of what Sabrina has already done on her own.

     

    Cheers,

    Bill

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

petrdworak

Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: Accident

[quote="zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca"]

Owners should take note that the CH601XL has relatively light pitch control forces and that it is possible to exceed the positive (+6) and the negative (-3) ultimate load factors if forcing the controls in a very rough or sudden manner. [/quote]



So what's the XL's negative ultimate load: 3g or 6g (as per official web page info)?



Sorry, doesn't consider Heintz's letter adequate. Conclusion "do not push the stick too fast" and info that "complete structural test were done" which

in fact means "only not destructive static load tests were done" doesn't sound solid enough.



And for those C.Heinz is a Got and ingenious engineer for, please read following:

http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=926



It is old history - C.H factualy stoled Colomban's CriCri design, made some dangerous modifications and started to produce 'Criket' kits. Changes were denided by M.Colomban and leds to consequence of aileron flutter incidents which later cost lifes. C.Heintz doesn't provided builders/pilots with info about these incidents. One of builders - Jim Harper experienced inflight aileron flutter that time not fatal and asked C.H. for the reason. C.H., provided wrong solution (remove a play from the aileron control system) but the reason was soft steel laison tube controlling flaperons - modification made by C.H.

Jim Harper was killed during next flight - aileron flutter... sad, very sad...

Isn't this similar? Unpopular true can put his company down...

dan(at)hillsgun.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject: Accident

After reading the thread referenced I don't see any concrete evidence to

support wrongdoing on the part of Chris Heinz, only one individual making

unsupported accusations. The writing style and dialect seem very similar to

the poster making the accusations here. Are you that individual? If there is

proof then it is of interest. If it is just an individual with a personal

vendetta then please don't waste our time. Dan.



--

MHerder

Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Fort Worth TX

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: Re: Accident

Guys I have to admit, I am concerned about the situation and want answers too.   But I would like to take a moment to point out that most of these BS accusations and "the sky is falling comments" tend to come from people who can't even spell the name of the person they are accusing of seriously neglectful and unethical behavior.

_________________
Zodiac 601 HD
Jabiru 3300
Wood Sensinich 64x47
Finally Flying

petrdworak

Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:05 am Post subject: Re: Accident

Sir, If you speak about my post regarding CriCri / Cricket history, please take a look and search within CriCri yahooo group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CriCri/ 

or in the Google for more info.

Here is some more info:



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CriCri/message/1185

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.aviation.homebuilt/2006-06/msg00511.html

http://www.airtalk.org/zenith-aircraft-vt70848.html



No, I'm not a poster on that discussions and even I don't know any of them. Regarding the evidence: it is obvious: only Cri-Cris with Heintz's modifications suffered the flutter problems. CriCri is safe and reliable design - many are flying for 20 years with no problems. M.Colomban  stopped sell plans to the US/Canada after incidents. He is still active - you can ask him for the true story I am sure:



Michel Colomban

37 Bis Rue La Kanol

92500 Rueil Malmaison

France

Fax: 0033 147 51 8876



And he is pofessional aircraft designer. Maybe he could help all of you to evaluate XLs structual : just try to contact him...



I am not concerned  here in any way. My friend is building a CriCri so I am interested in this plane and its history. I am not producer of kitplanes, just looking to suitable design to build one so no vendetta etc. Only would like to provide the view from another alternative side for those who didn't know that story. I do not know where the true is but as I wrote: C.Heintz's letter looks be more a PR than serious analysis as a reaction for that accidents.

Regarding my English resp. dialect you call it I'm sorry, this is not my native language. I live in Europa and my English is really not good. If I was no not polite enough, please take that within this context...





[quote="dan(at)hillsgun.com"]After reading the thread referenced I don't see any concrete evidence to

support wrongdoing on the part of Chris Heinz, only one individual making

unsupported accusations. The writing style and dialect seem very similar to

the poster making the accusations here. Are you that individual? If there is

proof then it is of interest. If it is just an individual with a personal

vendetta then please don't waste our time. Dan.



--[/quote]

dan(at)hillsgun.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:15 am Post subject: Accident

I have nothing against you, and I am not criticizing your English or

politeness. I was only pointing out that from the way you had written your

critical post was very similar to the post you referenced us to yet you did

not identify yourself as having written both articles. I still don't see any

proof of wrongdoing, only one individual (you) saying it is so. Dan.



--

petrdworak

Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Accident

[quote="dan(at)hillsgun.com"]I have nothing against you, and I am not criticizing your English or

politeness. I was only pointing out that from the way you had written your

critical post was very similar to the post you referenced us to yet you did

not identify yourself as having written both articles. I still don't see any

proof of wrongdoing, only one individual (you) saying it is so. Dan.



--[/quote]



OK, thanks. I don't have more info and/or evidence. Everything I know I was told or read on the Net. I believe the story is true. You can contact people on the CriCri group. I thing you can get more info there or you can try contact Mr. Colomban.

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: Accident

your english is fine - we need to be a little more accommodating of other speakers.



petrdworak <petrdworak(at)seznam.cz> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "petrdworak" 



Sir, If you speak about my post regarding CriCri / Cricket history, please take a look and search into CriCri yahooo group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CriCri/ 

or in the Google for more info.

I am not concerned  here in any way. My neighbor is building a CriCri so I am interested in this plane and its history. I am not producer of kitplanes, just looking to design to build one so no vendetta etc. Only would like to provide the view from other alternative side from thoose who didn't know that story. I do not know where the true is but as I wrote: C.Heintz's letter looks be a PR not serious analysis as a reztion for the  HP Corvair

      [quote][b]

petrdworak

Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:19 am Post subject: Re: Accident

More info regarding CriCri and role of Chris Heintz in the CriCri history is in a following document:

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oIKySAi4u7Sf6nBMT2IsZ-Mvy9IFzZWZM2UpoJFs709FfOm4hXey2J6zxofTB4h-TMvQa2D92tklZ6fAsMjBez-e_XXMMoQ/7%20CriCri%20Basics/7%20%20CriCri%20%20basics.doc

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:47 am Post subject: Accident

On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 03:19:30AM -0700, petrdworak wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   More info regarding CriCri and role of Chris Heintz in the CriCri history

 is in a following document:

 http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oIKySAi4u7Sf6nBMT2IsZ-Mvy9IFzZWZM2UpoJFs709FfOm4hXey2J6zxofTB4h-TMvQa2D92tklZ6fAsMjBez-e_XXMMoQ/7%20CriCri%20Basics/7%20%20CriCri%20%20basics.doc


	


Not only did your link turn out to be three lines long (hint: tinyurl.com),

but it was 404-compliant.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

petrdworak

Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:36 am Post subject: Re: Accident

Sorry, probably it is not possible to link the files from the yahoo groups. So I attached the doc to this post. The original is available on the CriCri yahoo group:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CriCri/  under "Files" section (needed free registration to access).



Petr Dworak

7 CriCri basics.doc

Description:

Download

Filename:

7 CriCri basics.doc

Filesize:

43.5 KB

Downloaded:

4745 Time(s)

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: Accident

On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 06:36:24AM -0700, petrdworak wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Sorry, probably there is not possible to link the files from the yahoo

 groups. So I attached the doc to this post. The original is available on

 the CriCri yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CriCri/ under

 "Files" section (needed free registration to access).


	


"Michel was approached by Chris Heintz (of notorious Zenair)"...



Nice unbiased reporting there. The rest of the document is in the same

vein. Nothing there we haven't been told before.



You've only posted in this thread, on this subject. I wonder what axe you

have to grind.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:57 am Post subject: Accident

Hi petr,

The article written was very interesting, but one must realize the 

authors of that piece may have slightly exaggerated the position and 

weight of details regarding

Chris Heinz involvement in the "Cri Cri".  I've seen the aircraft and 

it's size and design would puts it in a very high-risk category to begin 

with.



What ever actual agreements were made between CH and the original 

designer, we'll never really know as we weren't there.  Design flaws 

attributed to CH would also be questioned because there is no 

substantive history on who actually made the questionable changes or if 

they were actually within CH's perview. 



It's easy to smear a persons name with the envy or jealousy that the 

author conveys, but the character of the Chris Heinz I know, isn't 

anywhere near as "casual" about actual proper design or his personal and 

business relationships. He and his family have earned the complete trust 

of a lot of people including myself, by the careful practice and total 

dedication to doing the right thing. 



This 3rd party article should not have been submitted, but it does serve 

to point out that there are people who cannot cope with Zenith's 

extraordinary success.

I still celebrate what Chris and his family for what they've done for 

all of us and wish them the best.

 

Thank you for the article,



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



petrdworak wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Sorry, probably there is not possible to link the files from the yahoo groups. So I attached the doc to this post. The original is available on the CriCri yahoo group:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CriCri/  under "Files" section (needed free registration to access).



 Petr Dworak



 Attachments: 



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/7_cricri_basics_439.doc

petrdworak

Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:06 pm Post subject: Re: Accident

Larry,



I understand your attitude and many of your thoughts can be true. But I think for sure not following one: [i]"I've seen the aircraft and 

it's size and design would puts it in a very high-risk category to begin 

with." [/i]. I know Cricri construction in detail and it is really ingenious piece of engineering. And also there are many of them flying for long time without problem (yes not in the US but the Europe, some for 25 years and more).  Also I think there is not problem to resolve what design changes were done by Zenair and what is the original - the plans are still available around.

I posted this only to have alternative view for those who didn't know the story what I believe is true...  I don't know Chris Heintz as you do. I don't like the way he is celebrating himself as the ingenious engineer on his own web. I don't like the way he is writing about one of the XL accident in his letter aka "It was made in a factory somewhere in the Europe from god know what material but don't worry we are producing only from the best US alloy" forgetting to mention the fact it was made by his official 

contractor in the country with big aircraft construction and production history...

Petr

ZodiacGermany

Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Posts: 2
Location: Germany

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Accident

When certifying aircraft in Germany, we have to do lot of structural tests, lot more than other countries. Chris Heintz designs have been flying here for many years with zero structural failures. 

This crazy guy that is talking of cri-cri. After doing research, I cannot see anywhere Chris says it is his design. He built kits with 100% collaboration with French designer, but this is very old news and wast of everyone time on here. Focus on positive would be good idea and productive for all I think.



In Europe and other countries, I see more than 5 company that is making copy of Zenair aircraft. Maybe only excellent designs are copied, but hard for Chris to control what they do. Impossible situation for control I think. Also this is true for experimental when builder is making changes.



Chris Heintz letters, especially one with control cable is very informative and important. I can think that loose control cables in most any aircraft is potentially big problem. If flutter is cause for some accidents and all I have to do is make positive that my Zodiac cables are good, that is very good news to all I think. This would give best explanations for wing problem. 



For Zodiac, I cannot know anywhere that USA NTSB  or other country has stated a structural design problem.  I would be very interested to see government report about structure problem, but not interested in builder speculations, especially from people who want to damage others. thank you.

Larry Webber

Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 63
Location: West Kingston Rhode Island

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: Accident

WELL SAID        



 Larry  Webber rhode island

 601xl corvair chugger



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Accident

 From: ZodiacGermany(at)yahoo.com

 Date: Thu C 28 Aug 2008 06:48:40 -0700

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ZodiacGermany" <ZodiacGermany(at)yahoo.com>

 

 When certifying aircraft in Germany C we have to do lot of structural tests C lot more than other countries. Chris Heintz designs have been flying here for many years with zero structural failures. 

 This crazy guy that is talking of cri-cri. After doing research C I cannot see anywhere Chris says it is his design. He built kits with 100% collaboration with French designer C but this is very old news and wast of everyone time on here. Focus on positive would be good idea and productive for all I think.

 

 In Europe and other countries C I see more than 5 company that is making copy of Zenair aircraft. Maybe only excellent designs are copied C but hard for Chris to control what they do. Impossible situation for control I think. Also this is true for experimental when builder is making changes.

 

 Chris Heintz letters C especially one with control cable is very informative and important. I can think that loose control cables in most any aircraft is potentially big problem. If flutter is cause for some accidents and all I have to do is make positive that my Zodiac cables are good C that is very good news to all I think. This would give best explanations for wing problem. 

 

 For Zodiac C I cannot know anywhere that USA NTSB or other country has stated a structural design problem. I would be very interested to see government report about structure problem C but not interested in builder speculations C especially from people who want to damage others. thank you.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=201180#201180

 

 

 

=======================
	


&g=

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	


Get thousands of games on your PC C your mobile phone C and the web with Windows®.   [quote][b]

_________________
how do you eat an elephant ? one bite at a time

petrdworak

Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:33 am Post subject: Re: Accident

[quote="ZodiacGermany"]When certifying aircraft in Germany, we have to do lot of structural tests, lot more than other countries. Chris Heintz designs have been flying here for many years with zero structural failures. 

[/quote]

:-) We are speaking about the 601XL only. Strange theory: no structural failure in Germany - it cannot happened.



[quote="ZodiacGermany"]This crazy guy that is talking of cri-cri. After doing research, I cannot see anywhere Chris says it is his design. He built kits with 100% collaboration with French designer

[/quote]

Sorry, you haven't read careful enough. Zenith's modifications are listed in the article. Also it is written there they were refused by Colomban...



[quote="ZodiacGermany"]

If flutter is cause for some accidents and all I have to do is make positive that my Zodiac cables are good, that is very good news to all I think. This would give best explanations for wing problem. 

[/quote]

:-) Yes, loose cables can cause flutter problems. But they are many other possible causes. Low torsional stiftness of the wing for example. But is is hard to check using sand bags in so called "structural load tests" :-)



[quote="ZodiacGermany"]

For Zodiac, I cannot know anywhere that USA NTSB  or other country has stated a structural design problem.  I would be very interested to see government report about structure problem, but not interested in builder speculations, especially from people who want to damage others. thank you.[/quote]

And what I am not interested in are calming advices from the people concerned in the sale. They can be more dangerous...

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:46 am Post subject: Accident

Mr. Petroworak,



My advice to you is -  Don't build the plane.  DO us a favor and save your self the money and the griping for some other project.  Or sell your plane.  PLease.  The argueent you are trying to make is a &^%#&$%# waste of time.  You keep at it and I am going to go Tourettes on this web site. THe german gentleman is quite on the mark,  you bitching has nothing to do with any arguements on the 601.  Move on to another website dude.



Juan, 140 hours and no flutter.



--

darrellhaas(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: Accident

Mr. Petrowak,

      I have set here and not said a word but give us all a break. Go somewhere where you are wanted. Go complain somewhere else. Do you have stock in some other homebuilt aircraft company?

 Darrell

 On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 6:45 AM, Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net (amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net (amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net)>

 

Mr. Petroworak,



My advice to you is -  Don't build the plane.  DO us a favor and save your self the money and the griping for some other project.  Or sell your plane.  PLease.  The argueent you are trying to make is a &^%#&$%# waste of time.  You keep at it and I am going to go Tourettes on this web site. THe german gentleman is quite on the mark,  you bitching has nothing to do with any arguements on the 601.  Move on to another website dude.

 

Juan, 140 hours and no flutter.

  

 

--

petrdworak

Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:15 pm Post subject: Re: Accident

[quote="amyvega2005(at)earthlink."]Mr. Petroworak,



My advice to you is -  Don't build the plane.  DO us a favor and save your self the money and the griping for some other project.  Or sell your plane.  PLease.  The argueent you are trying to make is a &^%#&$%# waste of time.  You keep at it and I am going to go Tourettes on this web site. THe german gentleman is quite on the mark,  you bitching has nothing to do with any arguements on the 601.  Move on to another website dude.



Juan, 140 hours and no flutter.



--[/quote]



Juan,



Unlike you and "the german gentleman" I've stayed polite.  No more comments from my site.



Petr, 35 years and still alive  (Yes that's not argument I will live forever. It will come, I don't need a proof) :-)

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Next
Page 7 of 8

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum