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Accident Prevention

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sdthatcher

Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 91
Location: Port Saint Lucie

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: Accident Prevention

Just for the record, be sure when making your 45 to downwind on a gusty day 

you don't try the bank and yank approach (60-70 degree hard bank maintaining 

level flight) then level out abeam the numbers on downwind. You just might 

find that you've exceeded 6 g's in your aircraft as you watch your wings 

embrace your cabin!



Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL

601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA

N601EL

_________________
Scott Thatcher, Port Saint Lucie, FL
601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA
N601EL, EAA203 140 hours and not flying currently.

cscsail(at)gmavt.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:13 am Post subject: Accident Prevention

I'm not a 601 driver, but I would thing that the approach speed would we 

below the maneuvering speed (Va). Below this speed the wing can not produce 

enough lift to overstress the aircraft.

Gordon



---

david_a_g_johnson(at)btin
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: Accident Prevention

This is not quite true - a rapid reversal of the controls can over-stress 

the airframe. This is thought to have caused the crash of a PA28 near my 

home. A large section of one wing broke off (about 1/3rd. I think)



You can read the full AAIB report at:-



http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_025533.pdf



Dave Johnson

do not archive



---

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: Accident Prevention

Amazing.  I owned a Cherokee and "thought" is was built like a tank..  Guess 

not.

SW

---

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: Accident Prevention

Thanks,

Very interesting.



It does they state " the aircraft was flying at or just below VA of 118kt",

                       



Looks like Va, is more of a guideline  than a grantee in some cases.

 

The recommedation.....



              training syllabus for private pilot should be reviewed...



e.



do not archive



On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 9:59 AM, Dave Johnson <david_a_g_johnson(at)btinternet.com (david_a_g_johnson(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Dave Johnson" <david_a_g_johnson(at)btinternet.com (david_a_g_johnson(at)btinternet.com)>

  

 This is not quite true - a rapid reversal of the controls can over-stress

 the airframe. This is thought to have caused the crash of a PA28 near my

 home. A large section of one wing broke off (about 1/3rd. I think)

 

 You can read the full AAIB report at:-

 

 http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_025533.pdf

 

 Dave Johnson

 do not archive

 

 ---

rtdin

Joined: 16 Mar 2008
Posts: 46
Location: Florida panhandle

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: Accident Prevention

Lets slow down here and take a breath. First, these bank angles at pattern altitude would be seriously bad judgment. Second, If the pilot's wife were on board, he might get slapped real hard. What we do know is that an aircraft with the wing and power loading of a CH601XL would barely be able maintain altitude beyond 60 degrees of bank. A bank angle of 40 Deg = 1.3 G, 60 Deg = 2 G, 70 Deg = about 3.2. 

 http://pilotsweb.com/principle/load.htm We always slow down in the pattern, do we not?

 The more likely scenario would be that a greenhorn would let the ball slip out, stall and not recognize the spin entry. Few pilots have training in spins any more. Even CFI candidates don't have to demonstrate them anymore. A log book entry will do. BTW, some bank angles of more that 60 degrees can be done one handed while pouring a drink with the other hand. Watch this.  http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xp2Uc9XvmjY Slightly more than 1 G. Bob Hoover has always been my hero.

 Bob Dingley 

 XL/Lyc Do not archive

**************

Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.

      (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)  [quote][b]

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: Accident Prevention

A 6G coordinated turn at a constant altitude would require slightly  

more than 80 Degrees of bank. It takes 76 degrees of bank to exceed  

the flight load limit of 4Gs.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 

 >



 Just for the record, be sure when making your 45 to downwind on a  

 gusty day you don't try the bank and yank approach (60-70 degree  

 hard bank maintaining level flight) then level out abeam the numbers  

 on downwind. You just might find that you've exceeded 6 g's in your  

 aircraft as you watch your wings embrace your cabin!




	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: Accident Prevention

The published Va for most aircraft is only valid at the aircraft's  

gross weight. You can exceed the airplane's flight load limit at lower  

weights at the published Va without stalling the airplane. At the  

lower weight, you probably won't over-stress the wing root attachment  

but you may over-stress other parts of the structure. Va should be  

decreased for weights less than gross weight.



On Mar 20, 2008, at 1:55 PM, ernie wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks,

 Very interesting.



 It does they state " the aircraft was flying at or just below VA of  

 118kt",

 Looks like Va, is more of a guideline  than a grantee in some cases.



 The recommedation.....



               training syllabus for private pilot should be  

 reviewed...




	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Accident Prevention

Maybe this is the real problem. The 'in the pattern' accidents were the one's that disturbed me the most.

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: Accident Prevention

I saw Bob Hoover fly when I lived in Fla back in the 80's.. That video you gave a link to was a testimony to how damn good Bob Hoover really is. If you look up the word smooth in the dictionary there will be a color picture of him under the defination... 

Ben. 

do not archive



t get slapped real hard. What we do know is that an aircraft with the wing and power loading of a CH601XL would barely be able maintain altitude beyond 60 degrees of bank. A bank angle of 40 Deg = 1.3 G, 60 Deg = 2 G, 70 Deg = about 3.2. 

http://pilotsweb.com/principle/load.htm We always slow down in the pattern, do we not?

The more likely scenario would be that a greenhorn would let the ball slip out, stall and not recognize the spin entry. Few pilots have training in spins any more. Even CFI candidates don't have to demonstrate them anymore. A log book entry will do. BTW, some bank angles of more that 60 degrees can be done one handed while pouring a drink with the other hand. Watch this.  http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xp2Uc9XvmjY Slightly more than 1 G. Bob Hoover has always been my hero.

Bob Dingley 

XL/Lyc Do not archive

**************

Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.

(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)  	  Quote: 	
		  



====================================

">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

====================================

tronics.com

====================================

www.matronics.com/contribution

====================================



	
 



_____________________________________________________________

Put your loved ones in good hands with quality senior assisted living. Click now!

   [quote][b]

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: Accident Prevention

I've been flying 33 years and doubt if I've ever pulled much more than 3 g's in any maneuvers, including steep turns. This is true even with all the students I've flown with.  If it was routine to pull that many g's we'd have broken airplanes all over the place.



Tim



do not archive

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject: Accident Prevention

Yep

I assumed this was calc , they did finite analyis on the wingwhy would

the miss that

Do not archive

On 3/20/08, Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 The published Va for most aircraft is only valid at the aircraft's

 gross weight. You can exceed the airplane's flight load limit at lower

 weights at the published Va without stalling the airplane. At the

 lower weight, you probably won't over-stress the wing root attachment

 but you may over-stress other parts of the structure. Va should be

 decreased for weights less than gross weight.

 On Mar 20, 2008, at 1:55 PM, ernie wrote:

 > Thanks,

 > Very interesting.

 >

 > It does they state " the aircraft was flying at or just below VA of

 > 118kt",

 >

 >

 > Looks like Va, is more of a guideline than a grantee in some cases.

 >

 > The recommedation.....

 >

 > training syllabus for private pilot should be

 > reviewed...

 >

 --

 Bryan Martin

 N61BM, CH 601 XL,

 RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

 do not archive.

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: Accident Prevention

very common thought - but untrue. It is theoretically impossible to overstress the airframe structure by deflection of the controls to limit at or below maneuvering speed. This does not address gust loading, vertical wind shear, and other transients that are frequently encountered during flight.



Gordon <cscsail(at)gmavt.net> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gordon" 



I'm not a 601 driver, but I would thing that the approach speed would we 

below the maneuvering speed (Va). Below this speed the wing can not produce 

enough lift to overstress the aircraft.

Gordon



---

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: Accident Prevention

Dave

This report did a detailed investgation on how a aircraft could be

damage at or below va with the right/wrong control inputs





On 3/20/08, David Downey <planecrazydld(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

[quote] very common thought - but untrue. It is theoretically impossible to

 overstress the airframe structure by deflection of the controls to limit at

 or below maneuvering speed. This does not address gust loading, vertical

 wind shear, and other transients that are frequently encountered during

 flight.



 Gordon <cscsail(at)gmavt.net> wrote: 

 "Gordon"



 I'm not a 601 driver, but I would thing that the approach speed would we

 below the maneuvering speed (Va). Below this speed the wing can not produce

 enough lift to overstress the aircraft.

 Gordon



 ---

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:27 am Post subject: Accident Prevention

I second that motion Tim. I have flown several  times with friends in their aerobatic planes (Citabria Decathalon, Christen  Eagle, Steen Skybolt, Extra 300) and have found that the 4G entry / exit from an  inside loop is way, way more G load than I would ever confidently put my 601XL  through (once it is finished that is). Other pilots mileage may vary but nobody  needs to worry about me overstressing my XL. Hell, Bill of Georgia flies even  lighter touch than me so take us both off the worry list.

  

 Dred

   [quote][b]

sdthatcher

Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 91
Location: Port Saint Lucie

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: Accident Prevention

OK Jerry, I admit that being careful doesn't sound fun but if you're 67, you 

have obviously either been lucky or not as bold as you think.  Doing rolls, 

immelmans, etc., are not yank and bank flying!  Imagine decending to pattern 

altitude... the speed slowly builds up while you're watching one aircraft 

turn x-wind to join the downwind and another overflying the field. You bank 

hard right at 60-70 degrees to miss the aircraft overflying the field (to 

get an instrument rating I believe you've got to hold a 720, 60 degree bank 

without losing altitude, so this isn't too hard on the plane).  But Winds 

are gusting to 25 kts and suddenly you go vertical and pull back on the 

stick simultaneously while never noticing that you had exceeded maneuvering 

speed. Easily a 4-6 g maneuver. All I'm saying is that it can happen. Not 

often. Maybe never. But think about it when you are in the pattern.



Another common error was mentioned previously regarding stalling the 

aircraft in a tight turn. I was doing some spot landings in a Mooney and 

while tuning base to final (and decending), I banked it hard over to at 

least 70 degrees. Engine was at idle.  I knew I was going to hit the spot on 

the runway, so I leveled off... except the plane would not level off! It 

continued the left turn and those famous words, "Oh S..t" were stated 

loudly. The wing had stalled and the controls were useless. I added power, 

nosed over (all this within about 50 feet of the ground) and the plane 

immdiately leveled off, I dropped the gear and missed the mark entirely! 

Moral of the story. Never make hard turns in the pattern or anywhere else 

unless absolutely necessary



DO NOT ARCHIVE



Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL

601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA

N601EL



Message from Jerry Hey



<<Surviving and living are not at all the same.  Putting around making

gentle turns may extend your life but it is not living.  Yanking and

banking are the important fun part of flying, much more so than

sitting still in the left seat, afraid to twitch.   I love to fly.

One of my old friends, flying a Tailwind, can't go from point to point

without tossing in a roll ever so often.  One night, in pitch black,

we did roll after roll as we cork screwed along, only the lights on

the ground to pronounce right side up and our laughter filling the

cabin.    That was living!   I would not have a plane that cannot

handle a little fun.   Jerry  age 67   (701 scratch )>>

_________________
Scott Thatcher, Port Saint Lucie, FL
601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA
N601EL, EAA203 140 hours and not flying currently.

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