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Corvair 5th bearing

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ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:58 am Post subject: Corvair 5th bearing

Has anyone already made a 5th bearing for their Corvair conversion similar to what WW is developing. I was thinking about this a few weeks ago before I even knew he was trying to develop a 5th bearing. My concern at the time was more on the lines of adding a true thrust bearing, but taking up some of the gyroscopic forces isn't a bad idea either.



Does anyone know what WW is using as a bearing in his 5th bearing. His site didn't mention too much. I'm wondering if it's just machined surfaces with pressurized engine oil lubricating them or if he's using some sort of roller or ball bearings. I could see a seperate housing with tapered roller bearings and grease or gearoil working just as well if not better than machined surface bearings.



Just curious as to if anyone know what he's developing for this.



Thanks

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:57 am Post subject: Corvair 5th bearing

In a conversation with Ron Lendon, he told me he is going with Roy Szarafinski's 5th bearing design. Roy's 5th bearing is still in the prototype stage but I'm sure he will need a few good pilots to test his theory for him.   From what I can tell (which isn't much) his 5th bearing looks beefy and very impressive.  Here is his website:

   

  http://roysgarage.com/Roys_Garage/Welcome.html

   

  Hope this help you in your quest to find the "right one".

  Larry H



ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" 



Has anyone already made a 5th bearing for their Corvair conversion similar to what WW is developing. I was thinking about this a few       Be a better friend, newshound, and  [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:01 am Post subject: Re: Corvair 5th bearing

Thanks for the info. I think it's a good idea. All of this talk of nitriding the crank really means that the prop needs it's own real support. The Corvair is a great engine, but it wasn't designed as an aircraft engine, even though it's 90% there. Something like a fifth bearing is mandatory in my mind. Then it really is an aircraft engine. I'd still nitride the crank, but with a 5th bearing, it probably wouldn't need it. From what I've read, the nitriding is really only adding a 15/1000th hard skin so to speak over a still more flexible shaft. Yeah, it'll make it stronger, but it's still a crust over a softer center. The 5th bearing makes more sense.



You wouldn't just hook a car engine up to a wheel, the wheel is supported by it's own housing. Same with this deal.



[quote="skyridersbn"]In a conversation with Ron Lendon, he told me he is going with Roy Szarafinski's 5th bearing design. Roy's 5th bearing is still in the prototype stage but I'm sure he will need a few good pilots to test his theory for him.   From what I can tell (which isn't much) his 5th bearing looks beefy and very impressive.  Here is his website:

   

  http://roysgarage.com/Roys_Garage/Welcome.html

   

  Hope this help you in your quest to find the "right one".

  Larry H



ashontz <ashontz> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" 



Has anyone already made a 5th bearing for their Corvair conversion similar to what WW is developing. I was thinking about this a few       Be a better friend, newshound, and   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

John Bolding

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 281

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: Corvair 5th bearing

do not archive,



Yes, several.



As Larry pointed out Roy's is in the first phase of production, it's the one 

I'm going to use, I've seen his work during the last 2 yrs and he has a 

thorough understanding of the challenges of this installation. The Corvair 

group might be a better place to ask as this subject is discussed almost 

daily.

John

---

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Corvair 5th bearing

Who's the Corvair group? Got a link?



 	  John Bolding wrote: 	
		  do not archive,



Yes, several.



As Larry pointed out Roy's is in the first phase of production, it's the one 

I'm going to use, I've seen his work during the last 2 yrs and he has a 

thorough understanding of the challenges of this installation. The Corvair 

group might be a better place to ask as this subject is discussed almost 

daily.

John

---

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:49 am Post subject: Re: Corvair 5th bearing

http://mylist.net/listinfo/corvaircraft



 	  ashontz wrote: 	
		  Who's the Corvair group? Got a link?

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: Corvair 5th bearing

Yeah I'm gonna use the Roy's solution.  As a matter of fact I will be dropping off my case and crankshaft to him this weekend.

It's not the least expensive but it sure looks good to me.  Roy has given this a lot of thought and he is a very meticulous machinist/welder.  I still have half of an airplane to build but things are progressing.



If ya go to SnF this year you can probably touch one of the Roy Szarafinski engines.



do not archive

_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:07 pm Post subject: Corvair 5th bearing

Ashontz



Regarding your comment about the "hard crust". That's not exactly how it works. It's, actually, really cool how it works. As I understand it, the nitriding process introduces nitrogen atoms to a certain depth increasing molecular density. This has the benefit of putting the surface in tension at all times. So that when the metal is bent the surface unloads towards neutral. This greatly reduces the likelyhood of cracking, since cracking happens as a result of continuous tension-to-compression cycles. Basically nitriding breaks this cycle. 



Kevin Bonds 

 -------------- Original message ----------------------

From: "ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org>

 	  Quote: 	
		   

bly wouldn't need it. From what I've read, the nitriding is really only 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   adding a 15/1000th hard skin so to speak over a still more flexible shaft. Yeah, 

 it'll make it stronger, but it's still a crust over a softer center. The 5th 

 bearing makes more sense.

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:55 am Post subject: Re: Corvair 5th bearing

Thanks, I was unaware that the nitrided surface is in tension at all times. I understand that the nitriding is not adding surface, it's just molecularly changing the outside 15/1000th of the existing surface. But how about the side that's on the outside of a bend, that'll be under even more tension. The inside will unload to neutral, but that outside will be even more stressed.



 	  Kevin Bonds wrote: 	
		  Ashontz



Regarding your comment about the "hard crust". That's not exactly how it works. It's, actually, really cool how it works. As I understand it, the nitriding process introduces nitrogen atoms to a certain depth increasing molecular density. This has the benefit of putting the surface in tension at all times. So that when the metal is bent the surface unloads towards neutral. This greatly reduces the likelyhood of cracking, since cracking happens as a result of continuous tension-to-compression cycles. Basically nitriding breaks this cycle. 



Kevin Bonds 

 -------------- Original message ----------------------

From: "ashontz" <ashontz>

 	  Quote: 	
		   

bly wouldn't need it. From what I've read, the nitriding is really only 

	


 	  Quote: 	
		   adding a 15/1000th hard skin so to speak over a still more flexible shaft. Yeah, 

 it'll make it stronger, but it's still a crust over a softer center. The 5th 

 bearing makes more sense.

Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: Corvair 5th bearing

I should have mentioned I am not an expert on this subject (or any other for that matter). I was just paraphrasing what I remember about a paper I read on the subject. I tried to find that paper for you, but could not. 



Kevin Bonds



 -------------- Original message ----------------------

From: "ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org>

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Thanks, I was unaware that the nitrided surface is in tension at all times. But 

 how about the side that's on the outside of a bend, that'll be under even more 

 tension. The inside will unload to neutral, but that outside will be even more 

 stressed.

 

 

 Kevin Bonds wrote:

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:13 am Post subject: Corvair 5th bearing

Kevin;



I believe that the introduction of the additional particles places the surface in compression thereby resuting in teh phenomenon you described in service. Shot peening does a similar function.



KEVINBONDS(at)comcast.net wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: KEVINBONDS(at)comcast.net



Ashontz



Regarding your comment about the "hard crust". That's not exactly how it works. It's, actually, really cool how it works. As I understand it, the nitriding process introduces nitrogen atoms to a certain depth increasing molecular density. This has the benefit of putting the surface in tension at all times. So that when the metal is bent the surface unloads towards neutral. This greatly reduces the likelyhood of cracking, since cracking happens as a result of continuous tension-to-compression cycles. Basically nitriding breaks  [quote][b]

Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:00 am Post subject: Corvair 5th bearing

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

Kevin Bonds

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Nashville, Tn

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:15 am Post subject: Corvair 5th bearing

_________________
KevinBonds
Nashville, TN
Plans-building Zenith CH601XL w/Corvair Power
http://home.comcast.net/~kevinbonds

don_lewis(at)swbell.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:57 am Post subject: Corvair 5th bearing

YES, see below........

 [quote]   ---

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: Corvair 5th bearing

I have read a couple of Ron L's posts and from what I can tell, Roy S. might have an engine or two at Fun N Sun on display this year.  I hope you will be able to get down there to meet him and see his work.  If you are really interested, I suggest you contact Ron Lendon himself directly.  He's a great guy and will try to help you if he can.  He's helped me with several questions I've asked him.  I'm sure he wouldn't mind helping you too.

   

  Regards,

  Larry H 



ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" 



Thanks for the info. I think it's a good idea. All of this talk of nitriding the crank really means that the prop needs it's own real support. The Corvair is a great engine, but  it wasn't designed as an aircraft engine, even though it's 90% there. Something like a fifth bearing is mandatory in my mind. Then it really is an aircraft engine. I'd still nitride the crank, but with a 5th bearing, it probably wouldn't need it. From what I've read, the nitriding is really only adding a 15/1000th hard skin so to speak over a still more flexible shaft. Yeah, it'll make it stronger, but it's still a crust over a softer center. The 5th bearing makes more sense.



You wouldn't just hook a car engine up to a wheel, the wheel is supported by it's own housing. Same with this deal.



[quote="skyridersbn"]In a conversation with Ron Lendon, he told me he is going with Roy Szarafinski's 5th bearing design. Roy's 5th bearing is still in the prototype stage but I'm sure he will need a few good pilots to test his theory for him. From what I can tell (which isn't much) his 5th bearing looks beefy and very impressive. Here is his [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

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