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GeoR38

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 60
Location: The Villages, fl

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: Fly the plane!!

In a message dated 2/22/2008 1:52:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  John,    and group of Kolb Guys,



  I just watched all 3 videos, in their    entirety, and must say that this latest discussion about "Kolb quit" (as Pat    prefers to call it) has been the most useless thread I've read in    years!!



  Watching these gentlemen fly and land their Firestars    reminded me of why I wanted a Kolb in the first place...namely because they    are incredibly docile machines.  Conversions about stalling and bending    landing gear and Kolb drop and other inane subjects have only lead to fears to    those of us that have yet to fly our planes.



  I have several    hundred hours of flight time on my Cessna 172.  I have never come even    close to bending the landing gear.  I've never dropped it in from 10'    feet up.  I've never stalled it as I was landing.  (Although I    watched someone do this on a 152 rental plane).  Now I say to myself "why    would I fear landing a Kolb, providing I FLY THE PLANE!!!"



  Now,    I'm NOT coming down on anyone who has ever bent landing gear.  I know    crap happens.  Even the best among us can have a lapse of concentration    and make a misjudgement.  This may very well happen to me, someday.     But having just watched an excellent example of potential Kolb performance,    long drawn-out discussions on falling out the sky seem useless.  Learn to    fly the plane, simple as that.



  I found these videos refreshing,    from the standpoint of knowing I am building an enjoyable flying,and gentle,    well balanced aircraft.



Mike Welch

Kolb MkIII  

	


 

 Mike I am sorry that I have taken so long to kinda catch up on my email,  and I think I understand your source of frustration that comes through on this  email of yours. It is an example of "how close do you want to inspect a subject?  "

 Do you drive a camel....of course not...so you don't need to know too much  about them. The Arabs have up to 400 words describing types of camels and we  have 2. Camel and dromedary.  For those of us who have fl own  the Firestar or other  Kolbs, there is a phenomenon  that has  been identified as a flight characteristic of the Kolb not seen as profoundly in  some other types of craft., Not a big deal, but certainly identifiable. Homer  suggested it was caused by low mass and hi drag or maybe it was lo drag....who  cares. It was an attempt to suggest its cause, but he did acknowledge that it  existed. 

  

 I could start this all up again by suggesting that the cause of it includes  something else, but I won't. Don't think some on the list could handle it  without stressing their sensibilities. (please notice my spelling is  impeccable)....just teasin......but it really is.[img]http://cdn-cf.aol.com/se/smi/0201e05bf2/02[/img]

  

 I guess my only point, Mike is ....don't be frustrated. I love my Firestar  which  I built in my garage in 1992 and towed it down here to the Villages  in Florida in 2004. 

  

 George Randolph

 Firestar driver from the Villages , fla



Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.

  [quote][b]

_________________
George Randolph
Firestar driver, The Villages, fl

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: Fly the plane!!

Brother George,

 

  Thanks for the reply.  It isn't that I wanted to squash the discussion of the flying characteristics of Kolb aircraft, it's just that I felt that many were giving the impression that landing Kolb airplanes were like landing the "Wright Flyer", or some other oddly shaped craft.

   To be honest, I really wasn't very frustrated, either.  If Kolbs have a slightly peculiar landing tendency, and someone advises you about it, would you not, then, avoid that tendency??  Is it that bad that it cannot be avoided?

  

   I have no quarrel with anyone about their views and opinions about flying their planes, and whatever landing technique they find pleasing.  My position was I was just trying to point out that I don't believe Kolbs have an "eary" landing style.

   They don't, do they?  I wouldn't know, because I haven't flown one, yet.  I am still fairly convinced Kolbs are reasonably docill, and manageable, providing one flies the plane, and doesn't let the plane fly them.

  

 BTW, George, nice spelling, grammar, and punctuation.  he he he 

  

 Mike Welch

 





 

  	  Quote: 	
		    From: GeoR38(at)aol.com

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 11:44:00 -0400

Subject: Re: Fly the plane!!

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com



   In a message dated 2/22/2008 1:52:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  John, and group of Kolb Guys,



  I just watched all 3 videos, in their entirety, and must say that this latest discussion about "Kolb quit" (as Pat prefers to call it) has been the most useless thread I've read in years!!



  Watching these gentlemen fly and land their Firestars reminded me of why I wanted a Kolb in the first place..namely because they are incredibly docile machines.  Conversions about stalling and bending landing gear and Kolb drop and other inane subjects have only lead to fears to those of us that have yet to fly our planes.



  I have several hundred hours of flight time on my Cessna 172.  I have never come even close to bending the landing gear.  I've never dropped it in from 10' feet up.  I've never stalled it as I was landing.  (Although I watched someone do this on a 152 rental plane).  Now I say to myself "why would I fear landing a Kolb, providing I FLY THE PLANE!!!"



  Now, I'm NOT coming down on anyone who has ever bent landing gear.  I know crap happens.  Even the best among us can have a lapse of concentration and make a misjudgement.  This may very well happen to me, someday.  But having just watched an excellent example of potential Kolb performance, long drawn-out discussions on falling out the sky seem useless.  Learn to fly the plane, simple as that.



  I found these videos refreshing, from the standpoint of knowing I am building an enjoyable flying,and gentle, well balanced aircraft.



Mike Welch

Kolb MkIII 

	


 

 Mike I am sorry that I have taken so long to kinda catch up on my email, and I think I understand your source of frustration that comes through on this email of yours. It is an example of "how close do you want to inspect a subject? "

 Do you drive a camel....of course not...so you don't need to know too much about them. The Arabs have up to 400 words describing types of camels and we have 2. Camel and dromedary.  For those of us who have fl own the Firestar or other  Kolbs, there is a phenomenon  that has been identified as a flight characteristic of the Kolb not seen as profoundly in some other types of craft., Not a big deal, but certainly identifiable. Homer suggested it was caused by low mass and hi drag or maybe it was lo drag....who cares. It was an attempt to suggest its cause, but he did acknowledge that it existed. 

  

 I could start this all up again by suggesting that the cause of it includes something else, but I won't. Don't think some on the list could handle it without stressing their sensibilities. (please notice my spelling is impeccable)....just teasin......but it really is.[img]http://cdn-cf.aol.com/se/smi/0201e05bf2/02[/img]

  

 I guess my only point, Mike is ....don't be frustrated. I love my Firestar which  I built in my garage in 1992 and towed it down here to the Villages in Florida in 2004. 

  

 George Randolph

 Firestar driver from the Villages , fla



   Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.

 	  Quote: 	
		  



get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

p://forums.matronics.com

blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! Learn more.  [quote][b]

GeoR38

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 60
Location: The Villages, fl

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Fly the plane!!

Mike .... trust me it is small but a real problem to those who have never experienced Kolb drop. I have bent 7 axles and 5 I would have gto say wee due to this phenomenon. 



Personally, I think it is due to the angle of incidence between the horizontal stabilizer and the wing, what this means is that some of the wing and tail is approaching stall even when flying cruise. ie, it is a draggy configuration that provides very good stability. You might say it makes washout unnecessary to achieve the stability of slow flight, you know how a washout wing first stalls in the middle then the stall progresses out to the wingtips as the plane slows down? But you still have some lift due to the unstalled part of the wing, but you will sink..... just like the Kolb does.  Well, it has Verrry  little dihedral for slow stability, soooooo it uses the angle of incidence  between wing and tail to achieve that necessary ingredient.



This is just part of the story, but touches on the main parts to explain Kolb drop.



Oh, btw, I straightened most of my bent gears during those early learning years, so it didn't actually cost me anything



George Randolph

_________________
George Randolph
Firestar driver, The Villages, fl

GeoR38

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 60
Location: The Villages, fl

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: Fly the plane!!

Matt sent e a form letter that I completed my answer on but am not sure  what it was all about. 

  

 do not archive

 George



Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.

  [quote][b]

_________________
George Randolph
Firestar driver, The Villages, fl

Wade Lawicki

Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Nashville Tn.

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: Fly the plane!!

George,

             No offense intended but, I have 200 hrs. on my FS with no previous GA or tail dragger experience and have NEVER bent a leg or broke an axle.

The DROP is the effect of a STALL not a cause? All planes do it! Its not the plane, its the pilot in command.

                                               Fly Safe,

                                                             Wade

_________________
Fly Safe! Wade
Nashville Tn.
FS 2

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Fly the plane!!

It does not matter what you call it, the Kolb drop, stall, or whatever you want to label put on it, it does exist.   The Kolb has a much greater tendency to lose its energy and lift on landing, and result in a sudden drop on landing, resulting in a lot of bent gear.  I have no use for people in denial, or that try to explain away facts, it is what it is.  Cessna and most other GA aircraft are more forgiving on landing, that just the fact.



There are a couple things you can do about Kolb Drop, the best is to install VG's on your Kolb, VG's will practically eliminate this in a Kolb, not totally eliminate, but it will make a dramatic difference.   Second is to recognize this flight characteristic and learn to deal with it.   I have no problem landing my Kolb, but I am not perfect, so for the times I do not execute a perfect landing, and it happens to all pilots, the VG's make it forgiving enough that I don't bend anything.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

R. Hankins

Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 185
Location: Grants Pass, Oregon

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:46 am Post subject: Re: Fly the plane!!

Blaming bent gear legs on the plane is like blaming one's slice on the golf club or a bad serve on one's tennis racket.  It is not a reflection on the equipment, but the person using it.

_________________
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C

apilot(at)surewest.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:07 pm Post subject: Fly the plane!!

where does Mike live and what does he fly?

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:36 pm Post subject: Fly the plane!!

At 12:04 PM 3/21/2008, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  It does not matter what you call it, the Kolb drop, stall, or whatever you 

want to label put on it, it does exist.   The Kolb has a much greater 

tendency to lose its energy on landing, and result in a sudden drop on 

landing, resulting in a lot of bent gear.  I have no use for people in 

denial, or that try to explain away facts, it is what it is.  Cessna and 

most other GA aircraft are more forgiving on landing, that just the fact.


	


I really hope we can move on to another subject.  Every aircraft has its 

own particular stall behavior.  A Cessan is different from a Piper, which 

is different from a P-51 which is different from a Quicksilver or... a 

Kolb.  I haven't heard anybody denying that Kolbs fly like... well, Kolbs, 

but calling it the "Kolb Drop" or anything else, like it's something 

unusual, is absurd, as is expecting a Kolb to fly just like a Cessna (or a 

P-51).  Taylorcrafts (which I mention because I used to own one), for 

example, have a tendency to float forever on landing if you don't start 

your flare rather early, compared to, say, a Cub (or a Kolb!), but nobody 

calls it the "T-Craft Travel" or anything like that.



If you want to mellow your Kolb's stall behavior by installing VG's (and 

accepting any compromises that might entail), have at it.  But it doesn't 

mean a Kolb with VG's is "better" (or "worse"), or one without VG's is 

"bad"; it simply reflects the preferences of the owner.



-Dana

--

  When you get it right

mighty beasts float up into the sky

When you get it wrong

people die



-Roger Bacon (c1384)

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject: Fly the plane!!

Regarding "poor' landings, bent legs: As a 12 yr old I had to work on an uncle's farm. I was "breaking" sod in an old pasture with two mindful mules. Couldn't seem to hold the plow handles to make a straight furrow. Uncle comes over from next field to inspect my very uneven furrows. Checks the harness, mules' bits, their ears. Diagnosis: "Son, you gotta be smartern' them mules to operate 'em." 

Let us spread a thick film of SeaFoam over Kolb-Quit, and let it lie (not lay).



do not archive



regards,

Bob N.    FireFly 070 Old Kolb

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/



 



 [quote][b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Fly the plane!!

 	  Dana wrote: 	
		  At 12:04 PM 3/21/2008, JetPilot wrote:



If you want to mellow your Kolb's stall behavior by installing VG's (and 

accepting any compromises that might entail), have at it.  But it doesn't 

mean a Kolb with VG's is "better" (or "worse"), or one without VG's is 

"bad"; it simply reflects the preferences of the owner.



-Dana



	




This is not a matter of  " preference " , VG's improve the flying and landing characteristics of a Kolb, period.   There is no downside except the 100 bucks they cost and a couple hours of work.   One of the main reasons I bought a Kolb was because of its short field, and slow speed capability.   Being able reduce the stall speed by 10 MPH, and have a plane with a much better feel at slow speed made VG's worth the 100 bucks they cost many times over.  Getting rid of the Kolb Drop on landing was just an added bonus I did not expect.



R Hankins,



Aircraft manufacturers go to a lot of research and effort to make planes more forgiving and fly better.   Most people and manufacturers are smart enough to recognize that good design is important.   To blame bad flight characteristics of an airplane on pilots poor skills rather than fixing an obvious problem is just plain stupid.  Gone are the days of airplanes that were unstable, hard to fly, and would spin at the first chance, we are fortunate that aircraft design improved rather than just blaming the pilot each time a plane went into a spin an crashed.  



The Kolb drop is an undesirable characteristic of the planes we fly, it is what it is.  Fortunately, it is easy enough to fix for those smart enough recognize it and open minded enough to try VG's. 



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: Fly the plane!!

At 07:51 PM 3/21/2008, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  This is not a matter of  " preference " , VG's improve the flying and 

landing characteristics of a Kolb, period.   There is no downside except 

the 100 bucks they cost and a couple hours of work...


	


Don't they also reduce the cruise speed somewhat?  Then there's the issue 

of having all these things sticking out where they could be damaged, which 

would be an issue for those of us who regularly fold (or wash) their wings.



 	  Quote: 	
		    The Kolb drop is an undesirable characteristic of the planes we fly, it 

 is what it is.  Fortunately, it is easy enough to fix for those smart 

 enough recognize it...


	


One could say that stalls in general are "undesirable", and design them out 

of airplanes.  It's been tried, rather successfully in the case of the 

Ercoupe... but it didn't remain popular because most pilots don't think of 

stalls as being an "undesirable" flight characteristic, just a flight 

condition that has to be handled appropriately.



-Dana



--

  The Definition of an Upgrade: Take old bugs out, put new ones in.

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: Fly the plane!!

Cessna and most other GA aircraft are more forgiving on landing, that just

the fact.

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>


	


Cessna and most other GA aircraft put in quite a bit of washout in their

wings....  this causes the center part of the wing to stall first while the

outboard ends of the wing are still flying.. this allows for a bit softer

break on a stall.    The kolb with the straight wing, (no washout),,,,

should,  because of the wing cord and aspect ratio start stalling  at the

center,,  but the entire wing reaches the critical angle at nearly the same

time.



Boyd 



Do not archive.

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:47 am Post subject: Fly the plane!!

But it doesn't mean a Kolb with VG's is "better" (or "worse"),>>



Hi,

that is a strange statement.  Is an "increase of 30% on the cruise without 

compromising  the amazing short field performance", better? I would have 

said so.



This is from a flight test of the new `Savannah VG` in the April `Microlight 

Flying, our major magazine.



The Savannah is quite popular here. Around 30 flying. They are all metal 

with a very thick wing designed for short field performance.  Previously 

they were fitted with a `slot` on the leading edge.  This has been done away 

with in the `VG` variant and vortex generators have been fitted the full 

length of the wing in its place.

In this case we are not talking about `Kolb quit` or any other name for a 

stall. The Savannah has always had good low speed handling characteristics 

and  there is no mention in the article of landing speeds being affected by 

the VG`s. There is a mention of a `very` small increase in ground roll and 

thats it. It is the increase in cruise speed which has caught the observers 

eye.



"The old Savannah was not exactly a sluggard with a cruise of 75-80 mph but 

this one, with the same old Jabiru up front was slipping along at 100mph at 

2700rpm - an astonishing 30% improvement.  Gaining 5mph can take masses of 

tinkering with an established design but here an apparently minor mod has 

changed it from Land Rover to Range Rover in a single bound`

"The Savannah has already proved a popluar aircraft in its standard form but 

3 `VG` kits have been sold and it wouldn`t surprise me if if Classic owners 

didn`t choose to replace the old wing with the new. At around £1000 it seems 

a snip for all that exttra performance."



All this of course begs the question Do I want VG`s or even `do I need VG`s. 

As far as John H is concerned the answer to both   questions is `No` and 

some others agree but I think there is little point in arguing about the 

effectiveness of VG`s. That is proved. They do just what it says on the tin.



I hereby solemnly swear that I will not ever, ever, ever, write another word 

to the list about VG`s



Cheers



Pat

Ed in JXN

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:19 pm Post subject: Fly the plane!!

Roger/All,



        Exactly.  It's merely a stall, why blame the aircraft?



        Dad was a cabinetmaker.  He had a saying, "'It's a poor workman who 

blames his tools."  Sorry guys, but if it quacks and smells like one....



Ed in JXN

MkII/503

Do not archive.

---

Ed in JXN

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:31 pm Post subject: Fly the plane!!

Hi Pat,



        Despite all the good they do, I doubt the VG's in this case are 

responsible for the increased cruise speed.  More likely is the removal of 

the leading-edge slot.  In some cases, VG's can cause a slight decrease in 

cruise.



Ed in JXN

MkII/503

---

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:41 am Post subject: Fly the plane!!

More likely is the removal of the leading-edge slot.>>



Hi Ed,



thats what I thought too, but I just couldn`t let the opportunity slip by to 

have a go. Heh Heh



Cheers



Pat

R. Hankins

Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 185
Location: Grants Pass, Oregon

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Fly the plane!!

 	  Quote: 	
		  To blame bad flight characteristics of an airplane on pilots poor skills rather than fixing an obvious problem is just plain stupid.  	


I agree completely, we are talking about Kolbs.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Gone are the days of airplanes that were unstable, hard to fly, and would spin at the first chance. 	


Right again, Kolbs are not unstable, are not hard to fly, and do not spin at the first chance if built correctly.



 	  Quote: 	
		  The Kolb drop is an undesirable characteristic of the planes we fly, it is what it is.  Fortunately, it is easy enough to fix for those smart enough recognize it and open minded enough to try VG's. 	




Well two out of three isn't so bad. 

To assume that every Kolb out there has the exact same flight characteristics as the one you fly is "just plain stupid" (as you would put it).  My KXP does not exhibit "Kolb drop."  Apparently your Kolb does, or did before VG's.



I had VGs on my plane for nearly 100hrs.  They were effective at reducing stall speed, but were not an improvement to MY plane overall, so I removed them. 



I agree that they are a great addition to many Kolbs.  I'm not quite sure why the idea that they aren't a magic bullet for every Kolb out there makes me an idiot, but I guess I'm in good company on the idiot list.

_________________
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C

Last edited by R. Hankins on Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:25 pm; edited 3 times in total

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: Re: Fly the plane!!

R Hankins,



You are obviously in denial, to dismiss the many reports of Kolb Drop as incorrectly built planes.   That is an pretty widely known characteristic of Kolbs, the fact that you are so closed minded that you are unwilling to see facts is exactly why I would never never take advice from a person like you. 



Secondly, given that you are the only case I have heard about that actually took VG's off your Kolb, my guess is that you did a very poor job of putting them on.   Are you one of the guys that made your own VG's with the " That looks about right " method ?



Now I understand why you are so against VG's, looks like you tried them, failed, and now have the " I did not want them anyway " attitude.



If you don't want VG's, you most definitely should not have them.  There are mountains of information on the benefits of VG's on airplanes and Kolbs.  Giving bad advice and bad information on the list just because you were unable to correctly install VG's is what I take issue with.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

R. Hankins

Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 185
Location: Grants Pass, Oregon

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Fly the plane!!

Mike,

I have edited my last post to clarify what I meant.  I did not intend to infer that the so-called "Kolb drop" is due to incorrectly built planes.  I was following a format of quote/response.  The reference to "built correctly" was in response to "airplanes that were unstable, hard to fly, and would spin at the first chance."

_________________
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C

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