Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

skis
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Rex Hefferan

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 147
Location: Olney Springs, Colorado USA "NOT a Kitpig"

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: skis

The point that you can interpret the FAA regs to favor your desires, if 

possible seemed to be the way I was taught in Flight School. 



-- 

Rex Hefferan

SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs



84KF wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Look at it this way:

 The aircraft configuration */is /* intended for use on land, and IAW 

 the regs, landing gear */IS/* fixed....Nothing in the regs say the 

 skis cannot used, or that said skis cannot be retractable.

  

 As always, we must not make things seem worse by ASSUMING the FAA says 

 something, when in reality, they haven't.

 Steve

 84KF

_________________
Rex
N740GP - M2/582
Colorado

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: skis

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net] 

 Just to keep me from getting a swelled head, it wasn't my idea for  

 the "L" shape...I'm just seeing what others have built and borrowing  

 their ideas.


	


I know, Lynn, those already exist, like here:

http://www.lightsportaircraft.ca/sun-n-fun2006/fbi-accessories.html



But I didn't think about their advantage before you mentioned the drag og the 'open hole' type as I remember how much snow was getting on the top of my skis right behind the wheel.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: skis

I just did some checking on those skis.  The look great and apparently worked killer on a kit fox, but were never offered to the public.  Only one set was ever produced, they were shown to see what kind of interest would be generated.



I would like to know if anyone on the list would buy a set and if so, what would you realistically be willing to spend for them.  It may be worth it to get the molds and put them into production as right now it is a pretty much build your own for our size planes.



Let me know if there is any interest.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: skis

Ahhhh.....good idea, L.  Sort of like a valve head-to-seat fit with  

the tapered plate, eh? This of course would require a much less wheel  

penetration than the 2" that I built into mine, and a tire pump. I  

landed in about 9" of snow a few weeks ago, and the resultant later  

takeoff required about 400' of an almost porpoising takeoff run.  

Excellent idea! I've heard of the drop-the-air pressure trick with a  

filler board of some sort, but the tapered fit just fine-tunes it.  

Leave it to the guys who have to, to come up with the best ideas.  

Something about Mothers and Inventions and Necessity.....: )



What about a subsequent landing on a paved strip? Hafta find a less  

deep snow-strip nearby, and go back to tires penetrating, then head  

for the hard stuff, I'd guess.



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/480+ hrs/down for annual



On Mar 25, 2008, at 4:11 PM, akflyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Lynn, that is correct that John sent the drawings I think, also  

 correct he is my brother.

 One trick we use is to have a plate that covers the hole in the ski  

 so when we get out in the back country, and find ourselves in deep  

 snow, you let the air out of the tire, roll the plate between the  

 ski and tire then put enough air back in the tire to hold it.  This  

 will make a virtually impossible takeoff very easy.  I know guys  

 that landed just fine but there was too much drag for them to be  

 able to take off again with wheel penetration skis.  The spent alot  

 of time on snowshoes packing a runway.



 The best way I have seen to make this plate it to make your cut out  

 in the ski at a bevel not a straight cut.  Then you cut out your  

 plate on a bevel so it will drop in flush with the cut out.  You  

 have then made a set of normal straight skis with very little drag  

 in the snow.

 Steve, a VERY valid point.  the wheels would remain fixed therefor  

 the primary gear is fixed, not retractable... very good point, i  

 would argue that one all day long too, but then again, I just love  

 to argue, especially with an official.



 --------

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 Leonard Perry

 Soldotna AK

 Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV

 582 IVO IFA

 Full Lotus 1260

 95% complete





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172610#172610

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: skis

Man, oh man, I sure hope looking at those skis doesn't influence my  

thinking! : )

Thanks for the tip, Michel.



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/480+ hrs/down for annual

do not archive

On Mar 25, 2008, at 4:27 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt(at)jps.net]

> Just to keep me from getting a swelled head, it wasn't my idea for

> the "L" shape...I'm just seeing what others have built and borrowing

> their ideas.



 I know, Lynn, those already exist, like here:

 http://www.lightsportaircraft.ca/sun-n-fun2006/fbi-accessories.html



 But I didn't think about their advantage before you mentioned the  

 drag og the 'open hole' type as I remember how much snow was  

 getting on the top of my skis right behind the wheel.



 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

 <pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">



 List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>

 forums.matronics.com</a>

 www.matronics.com/contribution</a>



 </b></font></pre>

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: skis

I'd be interested, but I'd be hard pressed put a price on what I'd  

pay. When I think about parting with dollars, I start thinking about  

what fun it'd be to build. But if you get some offers and start to  

manufacture, let it be known and maybe the price would cause me to  

rethink my frugalness.



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/480+ hrs/down for annual

do not archive

On Mar 25, 2008, at 6:20 PM, akflyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I just did some checking on those skis.  The look great and  

 apparently worked killer on a kit fox, but were never offered to  

 the public.  Only one set was ever produced, they were shown to see  

 what kind of interest would be generated.



 I would like to know if anyone on the list would buy a set and if  

 so, what would you realistically be willing to spend for them.  It  

 may be worth it to get the molds and put them into production as  

 right now it is a pretty much build your own for our size planes.



 Let me know if there is any interest.



 --------

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 Leonard Perry

 Soldotna AK

 Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV

 582 IVO IFA

 Full Lotus 1260

 95% complete





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172638#172638

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: skis

That is a very common practice written up in several books..  Just remember

to remove the plates before landing on a runway 



There is lots of other tricks bush pilots use to get out of tricky

situations.  One is to make a large circle turn before stopping the plane so

your skis stop in their own tracks..  Snow won't stick to the bottom of the

ski as much and you don't have to push snow to get going again.  



One guy, He flew a turbo beaver across the arctic and back every week in the

winter, told me he always put fresh boughs under his skis when he went into

a place overnight.. well for an 8 hour stop any way.(nights in the high

arctic are months long in the winter)  He also told me where there were

hangars he would cage his gyros before moving the plane and marking exactly

where the plane was so the next day he could put the plane back on course

and wind up the gyros before releasing the cages..  I think most of the

navigation at that time was RNAV.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject: skis

Ponds work pretty good for taking the plates out.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

eskflyer

Joined: 24 May 2007
Posts: 44
Location: AK

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: skis

OK guys and gals here is a site to take you to some great pics of Alaska and flying in a fox .  Click on the pics when the page loads and check them out . the last several pages have the fox on FROZEN water flyin on floats . Who needs skis with full lotus . Skis are great I would get a little more top speed out of her but heck this is what she is built for . 



www.myspace.com/eskflyer

_________________
FLY FUN FLY LOW FLY SLOW
John Perry
Kitfox 2 N718PD
582 cbox 2:62-1 IVO IFA
1220 Full Lotus

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: skis

have you been eating paint chips again?  You have to have a myspace account to log in and see the pics.  Put them on a photobucket account or something.  The gender questionable back ground makes it hard to read too 



DO NOT ARCHIVE  <twice so it does not get missed

msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: skis

I'd buy a set too Leni, if the price isn't too steep. I'd rather be flying than building skis. But first I need cabin heat. How about manufacturing a heat muff assembly for the 582?

   

  do not archive



Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson 



I'd be interested, but I'd be hard pressed put a price on what I'd 

pay. When I think about parting with dollars, I start thinking about 

what fun it'd be to build. But if you get some offers and start to 

manufacture, let it be known and maybe the price would cause me to 

rethink my frugalness.



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/480+ hrs/down for annual

do not archive

On Mar 25, 2008, at 6:20 PM, akflyer  wrote:



[quote] --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" 



 I just did some checking on those skis. The look great and 

 apparently worked killer on a kit fox, but were never offered to 

 the public. Only one set was ever produced, they were shown to see 

 what kind of interest would be generated.



 I would like to know if anyone on the list would buy a set and if 

 so, what would you realistically be willing to spend for them. It 

 may be worth it to get the molds and put them into production as 

 right now it is a pretty much build your own for our size planes.



 Let me know if there is any interest.



 --------

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 Leonard Perry

 Soldotna AK

 Avid "C" / Mk IV

 582 IVO IFA

 Full Lotus 1260

 95% complete





 Read this topic online [quote][b]

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: Re: skis

I am checking into production costs, but I would think a target price of 650-750 would not be out of line.  It may very well be a tad cheaper but if they came in at anything above that I doubt too many would buy them.



Also would think about making straight ski's too a little cheaper.



Just food for thought

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: skis

Lynn:  

   

Have you ever seen the hydraulic skis they use on certified planes?  The weight of the hydraulic system is surprisingly low  especially if you can find the aluminium rams.  They have two channels in the top of the ski that go past and in front of the wheel hole then a double action rams push a slides under each main wheel.  The rams are operated by a hand pump in the cabin.  The skis usually have springs which allow the ski to be pushed down a little bit as the slide covers the wheel but I’m sure low pressure tires would do the same thing.  

   

As for flying   LSA on penetration skis there are two things to consider 1. There is no reconfiguration in the air and  2. The plane is still described as a land plane.  If I was going to use them I’d talk to the FAA first.  

   

I think the spirit of the LSA is offer flight without complexity i.e. forgetting to put your gear down before landing.  Float planes will land pretty well on runways...Taking off again though is another matter.  They don’t want to allow the planes to get too big, too complex or for that matter too fast so that is the reason for no IFA props.  And they don’t want anyone to come up with arguments like, “I wasn’t using the IFA capability of the prop”, or the A&P was supposed to take that prop off before the plane was registered, etc.  

   

These are only opinions and as such may not be worth the paper they are not printed on.  

   

   

[img]cid:image003.jpg(at)01C88F43.47D28960[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

   

   

--

image003.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

7.29 KB

Viewed:

10066 Time(s)

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject: skis

Your 582 is water cooled. Get a Fiero heater core, $30 on e-bay, a Radio Shack computer cooling fan, $15 (they are 12 volt), mount and plumb it. Forget about heater muffs. They are for aircooled engines. You have hot water, It is a better method of heating, use it.

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL  



 [quote]  Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:32:43 -0700

From: msm_9949(at)yahoo.com

Subject: Re: Re: skis

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com



 I'd buy a set too Leni, if the price isn't too steep. I'd rather be flying than building skis. But first I need cabin heat. How about manufacturing a heat muff assembly for the 582?

  

 do not archive



Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson 



I'd be interested, but I'd be hard pressed put a price on what I'd 

pay. When I think about parting with dollars, I start thinking about 

what fun it'd be to build. But if you get some offers and start to 

manufacture, let it be known and maybe the price would cause me to 

rethink my frugalness.



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/480+ hrs/down for annual

do not archive

On Mar 25, 2008, at 6:20 PM, akflyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" 



 I just did some checking on those skis. The look great and 

 apparently worked killer on a kit fox, but were never offered to 

 the public. Only one set was ever produced, they were shown to see 

 what kind of interest would be generated.



 I would like to know if anyone on the list would buy a set and if 

 so, what would you realistically be willing to spend for them. It 

 may be worth it to get the molds and put them into production as 

 right now it is a pretty much build your own for our size planes.



 Let me know if there is any interest.



 --------

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 Leonard Perry

 Soldotna AK

 Avid "C" / Mk IV

 582 IVO IFA

 Full Lotus 1260

 95% complete





 Read this topic online  	  Quote: 	
		  


	


arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

p://forums.matronics.com

blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	
[b]

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: skis

the heater core will not even come close to putting out the hot air a properly constructed heat muff will.

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: skis

I would imagine you are right. But, the question is, will the heater core put out "enough" heat.

  

 Do not archive

  

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: skis

 From: akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com

 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 16:35:12 -0700

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com>

 

 the heater core will not even come close to putting out the hot air a properly constructed heat muff will.

 

 --------

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 Leonard Perry

 Soldotna AK

 Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV 

 582 IVO IFA

 Full Lotus 1260

 95% complete

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172890#172890

==============
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	


  [quote][b]

avidfox

Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 87

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject: skis

Pat,

  The Series 5 I have is equipped with a heater core. Referring to the original Skystar packing list, dated 01/23/95, it was part of "Heater Kit, Single, 912  #69014.000 ". The "Radiator, Cabin Heater" is part #15044.000. The included fan was a 4"  

  All other parts and part #'s are included in the list also.

  

 The heater does work.  But, you wouldn't know it unless you stick your hand under it. 

 The total efficiency is going to be determined by actual coolant temps and how air tight you cabin is. 

 I do not have a thermostat in the system so coolant temps are at the mercy of ambient air temps and my cabin has a lot of drafts so, in my particular plane, it's just about useless. With some work (read $$), maybe.

  I'm talking about flying in 35' 'F or less, and when you consider wind chill and any altitude, It gets cold. Gloves were mandatory for me this winter.

 I am not saying it couldn't be better... it is all due to the individual construction of the plane, and mine has not been modified from the original design.

  

 Steve

 84KF

 KF5\912UL

  

 



 

  [quote][b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: skis

At 09:16 PM 3/26/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I do not have a thermostat in the system so coolant temps are at the mercy of ambient air temps and my cabin has a lot of drafts so, in my particular plane, it's just about useless. With some work (read $$), maybe. 	


         The thermostat is only 135F. Even with it in you're not going to get much heat unless you're running near the 180F max water temp. On my plane that only happens in the summer on climb-out. Not much requirement for a heater then.



 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.    [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:04 am Post subject: skis

I would argue the amphib floats change a seaplane into a land plane and that

is allowed.  With penetration or retractable skis on the other hand a land

plane remains a land plane so why shouldn't it  also be allowed for the same

reason as amphib floats... It's safer.  At least in the winter when there

are large expanses of snow that you can't do a forced approach on.  Will

guys who have the skis use them not in forced approaches?? I'd sure hope so.

What happens if you land on a runway with your skis lowered (retractable)...

You go  out and buy another set of basses for your skis...  You won't be

taking off again unless there is a lot of snow on the runway..



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:01 am Post subject: skis

To get the most heat out of a liquid cooling system you need to be able to divert coolant from the radiator to the heater, just as is done in cars.  This means another special valve and re-plumbing the cooling system.  When that is done there is obviously less cooling area in operation so even in winter the coolant will achieve hotter temperatures and you will get much hotter temperatures in your cockpit.  I expect without a thermostat you will be taking a chance on cold shocking your engine if you turn off the interior heat while in flight.  Even with a thermostat I’d operate that heat control very slowly, keeping an eye on the temperature gauge.  Also put the control on the left side of the cockpit so a passenger won’t have access to it  

   

You can also try plumbing your heater in series with the radiator that way the hottest water, leaving the engine will pass through your heater core before the radiator.  Doing that will save weight but you won’t have any control over the heat other than the fan.  It will allow the whole system to operate more efficiently but in the summer, more sq inches of radiator in operation, but you may want to fly with the doors left back on the ground.  

   

   

[img]cid:image002.jpg(at)01C88FFE.00FA54D0[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

   

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan

 Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 2:33 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: skis  

  

  

   

At 09:16 PM 3/26/2008, you wrote:

 

   

I do not have a thermostat in the system so coolant temps are at the mercy of ambient air temps and my cabin has a lot of drafts so, in my particular plane, it's just about useless. With some work (read $$), maybe.  



         The thermostat is only 135F. Even with it in you're not going to get much heat unless you're running near the 180F max water temp. On my plane that only happens in the summer on climb-out. Not much requirement for a heater then.

 

 

   

Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.    	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4 	  Quote: 	
		   	
5 	  Quote: 	
		   	
6 	  Quote: 	
		   	
7 	  Quote: 	
		   	
8 	  Quote: 	
		   	
9

image002.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

7.29 KB

Viewed:

10063 Time(s)

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Page 2 of 3

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum