Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - EAA Sport Pilot article

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landings?

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landings?

 	  Quote: 	
		   I've had 3 in about 400 hours. All of them were due to electrical / ignition problems.



 Yes, you should expect one each time you fly and be happy if it doesn't happen.



 --------

 Scott Olendorf


	




  Scott,



  Would you mind elaborating why your engine quit 3 times in 400 hours of use?  What do you mean

"due to electrical/ignition problems", and how was it the motor's fault?   While I am NOT

very fond of 2 cycle motors, I think in most cases with engine failure it is not the engine's fault (like broken or defective parts that gives out!).  Usually you can chase the problem down to something that is the pilot's fault...like faulty wiring, dirty gas, improper maintenance, etc.  I think it is rare where you can put ALL of the blame on the motor, just because it is a 2 stroke (and EVERYTHING else like gas/oil, wiring, etc. was perfect)



  Even when you can fault an engine for failure, you usually find things like "the bearing weren't the proper size, 

the fuel ratio was wrong due to an incorrect carb setting, a wire shorted on an exhaust pipe, on and on..."



  As I stated, I don't really care much for 2 strokes, but that is because of low TBO times, high fuel

consumption, and a couple of other issues related to that type of engine, not because "they just quit" 

for no apparent reason.



  I don't mean to sound argumentative, but why should someone EXPECT an engine failure, provided it is

kept in "tip top" shape?  I realize everyone should always be prepared for an engine failure, that's just good

common sense, but to think a motor is so "touchy" that I should be happy if it doesn't quit just because I went 

for a flight, well, I'd change motors if that was the case.



Mike Welch



Do Not Archive

_________________________________________________________________

Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now.

http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_getintouch_042008

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:50 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landings?

What do you mean

 	  Quote: 	
		   "due to electrical/ignition problems", and how was it the motor's fault? 

  > consumption, and a couple of other issues related to that type of 

 engine, not because "they just quit"

 for no apparent reason.



  I don't mean to sound argumentative, but why should someone EXPECT an 

 engine failure, provided it is

 kept in "tip top" shape?  I realize everyone should always be prepared for 

 an engine failure, that's just good

 common sense, but to think a motor is so "touchy" that I should be happy 

 if it doesn't quit just because I went

 for a flight, well, I'd change motors if that was the case.



 Mike Welch


	




Mike W:



Two strokes have a much higher incidence of stoppages than four strokes. 

Notice I said stoppages and not failures.  Catastrophic failures occur 

occasionally, but most times it is Murphy that gets ya, two and four stroke.



Yes, fly like it is going to quit any second for both type engines.



Don't think Scott blamed the failures on the "motor", but on 

electrical/ignition problems.



Two strokes are much more susceptible to minor glitches than four strokes, 

therefore the greater number of stoppages.  They are extremely sensitive to 

stopping when operating parameters are outside a very narrow band.  Kept in 

this band, OK.  Get out, probably seize, or stop for some other reason.



I have no idea how much experience you have flying with a two stroke, but 

those of us that evolved from the dark ages of the early 1980's became quite 

proficient at forced landings.  Made a damn good pilot out of us.



Many of us have migrated from two to four stokes engines for the reason you 

stated, "touchy".  Four stroke flying has made aviating much more relaxed 

and comfortable.



Four strokes quit also.  I have had two 912 stoppages in the last 2,600+ 

hours of flying with this type engine, 1994 and 1998.  Both occasions 

because of contaminated fuel.  Both cases, pilot error, mine!  Hopefully, I 

have learned a bit from those experiences because I have not had a 912 quit 

running in over 10 years and many, many hours.



Take care,



john h

mkIII

hauck's holler, alabama

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: Re: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landin

John,

Why would you say contaminated fuel was pilot error?  What should you have done differently?

Thanks,

Cristal

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:29 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landings?

 	  Quote: 	
		   Laziness and getting in a rush will eventually lead to a failure and/or

 problem.



 john h

 mkIII

 hauck's holler, alabama


	




  John H.,



  And that is precisely my point.  While I don't especially care for them, I think most 2 stroke engines are fairly reliable....as far as engines go.



  My experience, although quite limited, has shown me that the PIC (pilot in command) is usually the blame, not an inherent deficiency with the 2 stroke design.  I greatly agree they are tempermental, and one should takes its operation and care very seriously, but when shouldn't we, when it comes to ANY engine.



  I have only experienced one engine failure.  A friend and I were taking off, in his Piper Cherokee, heading to the Golden State Fly-In.  He was PIC.  In doing our preflight he accidently "cocked" open the fuel drain valve.  At fuel throttle the engine suckks in air, instead of gas.  At 200 feet AGL, engine quit.  Luckily we landed on the remaining runway.

Reason for engine out, as usual, PIC.



  My next experience, although I won't go into it again (I explained it last year), was crappy gas can crud being poured into the gas tank.  The crud blocked the petcock.  Reason for engine out, again, dopey PIC, using household

dirty gas can.



  What I'm trying to get at is, we should always fly prepared for an engine out, true, but we should also take engine maintenance very seriously, okay, maybe a little more so on 2 strokes.



Mike Welch



Do not archive

_________________________________________________________________

Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger.

http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_042008

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

olendorf

Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 140
Location: Schenectady, NY USA

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: Re: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landin

Hey Mike,



My first 2 engine outs were due to a wire coming loose on the old style ignition coil. The wire was inside a blob of silicone so it wasn't obvious.  It killed the engine twice and it was dozens of hours in between. After the second failure I found the culprit.  The 3rd failure was a brand new engine and the brand new ignition box failed internally at 4 hours.  Impossible to prevent that type of failure.



None of those are 2-stroke failures. All of them would have been prevented with dual ignition however.



I don't really mean to EXPECT it will break but take precautions so if it breaks you don't hurt anything. I was trying to come up with a better word than expect but it is so easy to get complacent that I wouldn't want to water it down too much. Maybe 'anticipate' would be better? 



Everything can break and everyone can forget something.  I'm pretty careful with my engine and fuel and a few months back I was pouring gas from my gas can into my airplane and somehow a bee was caught in the funnel's plastic screen.  How the hell did that get in there?  If I didn't have the screen it would be in the tank and easily block the pickup tube.



I don't have a problem with the reliability of 2 strokes. I also want longer TBO and better fuel burn. I'm looking for an HKS engine for my next plane but if the TBO and fuel burn was the same for a given horsepower I would stick with the 2 stroke.

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

_________________
Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
http://sites.google.com/site/kolbfirestar/

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landings?

I think for me forced landing were sort of routine back in 1980, flying a Cricket Ultralight in Sanford NH if I remember right. It was my fault of course I forgot to put oil in those two strokes, not once but a few  times. I didn't know better, and no one told me that those things needed pre mix. Never thought anything of it, just got used to dropping it on the mud at the airport and then starting it up and flying again. Those Briggs and Stratton motors for at least a while run on nothing except fuel, it had two of them little things, but they got me flying for a few minutes. I don't think I ever got scared or anything like that just kinda looked at where I am going to sputter too. Thinking about it now I can't believe I did that and not really cared. Young and ignorant back then. Of course one day those two motors just wouldn't even start up, didn't know why....  



Ron TxAz



===============

---- cristalclear13 <cristalclearwaters(at)juno.com> wrote: 



=============




Just out of curiosity...do you remember how you felt when you had to make your first forced landing (especially if you weren't near any airport)?  Did you get "back on the bike and ride again" immediately?  I'd like to think I would (considering I'd lived through it!)  

And what did your SPOUSE say?  My husband has been pretty supportive of my learning to fly even though he hates heights and flying and would never go up in a small plane.  But my worry is if I had a forced landing that he'd make me sell my plane!  [Crying or Very sad]



--------

Cristal

Mark II Twinstar





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=174175#174175



--

kugelair.com

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum