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EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landings?
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cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:18 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landings?

I finally found time to start reading my EAA Sport Pilot magazine and read Rick's article.  He states, "I kept remembering forced landings from my Weedhopper days and decided I just couldn't do that two-stroke thing again."  



As some of you might remember, I bought a Mark II with a Rotax 503 DCSI.  I'm hoping to be able to start flying it by the end of this month.  Is Rick telling me that I should expect a lot of forced landings (or even one)?  I know we should ALWAYS be prepared for forced landings, but I'm wondering does this really happen A LOT?



Are there any Kolbers out there with two-stroke engines with lots of hours that have NOT had to have a forced landing?

_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

olendorf

Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 140
Location: Schenectady, NY USA

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:31 am Post subject: Re: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landing

I've had 3 in about 400 hours.  All of them were due to electrical / ignition problems.



Yes, you should expect one each time you fly and be happy if it doesn't happen.

_________________
Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
http://sites.google.com/site/kolbfirestar/

HShack(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:23 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landings?

Y ep;  660 hrs. on a 503.  Proper maint. is the key.

  

 Howard  Shackleford

FS II

SC   

  In a message dated 4/1/2008 9:21:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  cristalclearwaters(at)juno.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Are    there any Kolbers out there with two-stroke engines with lots of hours that    have NOT had to have a forced  landing?

	






Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.

  [quote][b]

George Myers

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: San Marcos, Texas

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landings?

I have over a thousand hours in 6 different 503's 3 different 382's and 2

cayuna (Indian word for 'falls from sky') 430D's. Not a single one of them

was new when I got it and a few were vintage and I have had more than my

share of forced landings (I taught myself to fly and to work on the little

buggers). BUT not a single one of them was due to anything breaking on the

engine in flight (most were because it's very dark in my colon OR as a guy

smarter than me said, "stupid is as stupid does"). They do require a LOT

more attention from YOU both on and off the ground. 

If you consider all the factors in selecting an engine .. weight, cost,

availability of parts, access to knowledge, and simplicity, there is not a

more reliable engine anywhere than the 503 or the 582.

That being said, what do you have more of.... money or time. It will take

one or the other to keep the fan blowing.

'Jus my 'pinion

George



[quote]--

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landings?

> Why would you say contaminated fuel was pilot error?  What should you 

have done differently?

 	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks,

 Cristal


	




Hi Cristal:



It is my job, as the pilot, to make sure the fuel is not contaminated by 

taking a fuel sample after refueling and before each first flight of the 

day.



I have a "homemade" gascolator and drain to seperate water and check for the 

visual condition of the fuel by draining it into a clear container.  On each 

of those occasions, I did not take a fuel sample.  ;-(  Totally, my fault.



Laziness and getting in a rush will eventually lead to a failure and/or 

problem.



john h

mkIII

hauck's holler, alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landings?

Cristal , I probably don't fit into your request, I did have one forced landing but that was in my first 10 hours of flying my KXP with a 503 I was messing with the mixture on the idle circuit but I didn't leave the pattern . after that I flew it 480 hours with out a forced landing or a rebuild , I was using Pennzoil for air cooled ,oil premix. 

 They fly great with the engine out but I had 125 hours in gliders before I ever had an engine out . The only other forced landing was  with a 912s so ,treat it right and the 503 is a dependable great engine.  Chris

 ---

gaman(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:49 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landings?

Kolbsters,

 There is a great article  in the new Sport Aviation mag about risk management .There is NO reason for a 2 stroke to be less reliable than other powerplants.If you want to argue TBO you have a point .I believe most 2 stroke failures are self induced,by neglect,or ignorance of the importance of PM.Members of our club have 2 strokes with over 550 hrs on them (503) 980hrs(582) with no failures.I believe once you understand the way they work and what the gauges are telling you,you can have great confidence in their reliability.



---

cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: Re: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landing

<quote>I have a "homemade" gascolator and drain to separate water and check for the 

visual condition of the fuel by draining it into a clear container.</quote>



John,

I always check the fuel on the Cessna that I'm learning in, but have noticed my Mark II has no way to do that.  I'll probably be looking into what it would take to add a gascolater.

My fuel filter is from the automotive store and I was told to change it often (I know there's lots of forum threads on fuel filters).  I was told (by a fellow pilot who works on Rotax engines) to change my spark plugs every 25 hours, perhaps I should change the fuel filter at the same time?  How often do you change your fuel filter?

Thanks,

Cristal

_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

olendorf

Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 140
Location: Schenectady, NY USA

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: Re: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landing

 	  gaman(at)att.net wrote: 	
		  Kolbsters,

 There is a great article  in the new Sport Aviation mag about risk management .There is NO reason for a 2 stroke to be less reliable than other powerplants.If you want to argue TBO you have a point .I believe most 2 stroke failures are self induced,by neglect,or ignorance of the importance of PM.Members of our club have 2 strokes with over 550 hrs on them (503) 980hrs(582) with no failures.I believe once you understand the way they work and what the gauges are telling you,you can have great confidence in their reliability.



--- 	




While I agree with this statement 100% I will say that my last engine out was on my brand new 447.  The ignition module failed at 4 hours.  



I have great confidence in my 447.   



I will continue to fly over areas I can land in if my engine fails.

_________________
Scott Olendorf
Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop
Schenectady, NY
http://sites.google.com/site/kolbfirestar/

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:16 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landings?

How often do you change your fuel filter?

 	  Quote: 	
		   Thanks,

 Cristal


	




Cristal:



I change the fuel filter, or clean it (I have that capability with the 

filter I use) at 100 hours, or less depending on how it looks when I check 

it at each oil change.  Normally, 25 to 50 hours for oil changes.



john h



john h

mkIII

hauck's holler, alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: Re: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landing

Just out of curiosity...do you remember how you felt when you had to make your first forced landing (especially if you weren't near any airport)?  Did you get "back on the bike and ride again" immediately?  I'd like to think I would (considering I'd lived through it!)  

And what did your SPOUSE say?  My husband has been pretty supportive of my learning to fly even though he hates heights and flying and would never go up in a small plane.  But my worry is if I had a forced landing that he'd make me sell my plane!

_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:38 am Post subject: Re: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landing

<quote>I change the fuel filter, or clean it (I have that capability with the 

filter I use) at 100 hours, or less depending on how it looks when I check 

it at each oil change. Normally, 25 to 50 hours for oil changes.</quote>



John,

"depending on how it looks"...That's where I wish I had your eyes.  I took the class and got a 100 on the test to get the LS-I rating so I can do my own inspections.  And I can read the books and manuals, but having those eyes of experience sure would make me feel better.



Oil changes - that's one thing I don't have to worry about with the two-stroke.    



Thanks,

Cristal

_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landings?

> "depending on how it looks"...That's where I wish I had your eyes.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Cristal


	




Cristal:



No special abilities to look at fuel in a glass or clear container to detect 

water or trash, or discoloration of fuel.  If suspect, dump it and get some 

fresh fuel.



john h

mkIII

hauck's holler, alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: Re: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landing

 	  gaman(at)att.net wrote: 	
		  Kolbsters,

 

There is NO reason for a 2 stroke to be less reliable than other powerplants.

--- 	




You are very wrong about this.   Two strokes fail MUCH more often than 4 stroke engines.   There is a good reason no certified airplanes use two stroke engines, they are just not reliable enough.   You can talk theory all day long, but the REALITY is that two stroke engines are much more prone to sudden failure than 4 stroke engines.  Reality is always more important than theory....



For those that wonder about the theory, the two stroke engine must have a near PERFECT fuel air mixture to keep from seizing, where as the 4 stroke is much more tolerant to errors, overheating, etc. etc.   Perfection is very difficult to maintain, and the first time something is not perfect in a two stroke, it will stop.



Everything is going towards the increased reliability of 4 stroke engines, boats, jet skis, dirt bikes... There is a good reason for this.  I fly both a 4 stroke on my Kolb, and also a 2 stroke on anther plane, but I am smart enough to know that the 2 stroke engine is far more likely to quit than my 4 stroke.  Only an idiot would dismiss the facts and try to tell others that two strokes are just as reliable as 4 strokes.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: Re: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landing

John,

Right now I don't have any way of putting my gas in a clear or glass container to inspect it.  There's no drain hole in the tank or the line.  I didn't build the plane, I bought it this way.  I suppose that's a feature I'll want to add.  



In general I'm talking about hearing/seeing/feeling things that only comes with experience.  This plane didn't come with check lists, operating manual, etc.  Thanks for sharing your experiences/knowledge on this forum.



Thanks,

Cristal

_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landings?

Cristal



I'm seeing some real good responses. The point I would like to make is that 

it

isn't so much the 2 stroke that makes them less reliable as it is also the

engine systems that are used (ignition, fuel, exhaust, etc. and 

pilot/builder). For example most four stroke aircraft fuel systems have 

finger strainers in the fuel pick up in the tank, a gascolater, fuel sumping 

capabilities, fuel filters and back up fuel pumps. It maybe the lack of 

information but builders of 2 stroke airplanes generally don't build them as 

safe.



The same mentality may be in play with the engine builders. If our engines 

aren't as reliable then maybe we shouldn't bother spending extra money on 

better systems.



Also a Rotax 503 in a MKII or MKIII has a hard life. My personal feeling is 

that the 503 in general has a good reputation because it is usually used in 

a Firestar where it doesn't have to work so hard to stay in the air.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

---

cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: Re: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landing

That makes sense Rick. Thanks!

_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:53 am Post subject: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landings?

Subject: Re: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced 

landings?

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net>


	




Hi Rick N:



Got my mail this morning and my copy of what used to be Experimenter.



Enjoyed your article.  Thought you got your point across great.  I certainly 

did not get the opinion you were beating up on two strokers.



Folks can pump themselves up about two strokes all they want to.  The Feds 

are not migrating to four strokes in rec vehicles because of reliability, 

but polution and conservation of fuel.



I haven't heard anyone speak of that microscopic wall of oil that seperates 

a two stroke from a piston seizure.  Break the oil film for a split second 

and there is a failure.  This is one mode we do not have a problem with very 

often in a stroke.



I have had main bearing failure in a brand new Cuyuna, less than 10 hours. 

That'll lock up the crank shaft in a hurry.



Had wrist pin bearings come out of a 447 on the way home from Lakeland, but 

made it all the way home.



Seized a 582 on my mkIII twice in 15 seconds.  That wasn't hard to do at 

all.



Enough on comparing the two.  Ain't getting anywhere and I have a lot of 

work to do to get out of here tomorrow to meet Brother Jim at Goose Pasture 

on the Wacissa River between New Port and Perry, FL, tomorrow.  Going to 

camp there until Sunday or Monday, then hop on over to Lakeland with the 5th 

wheel.  Be staying in the UL Camping Area.  Miss P'fer gets to stay home and 

relax in the barn for the next two weeks.



Take care,



john h

mkIII

hauck's holler, alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landing

 	  cristalclear13 wrote: 	
		  I finally found time to start reading my EAA Sport Pilot magazine and read Rick's article.  He states, "I kept remembering forced landings from my Weedhopper days and decided I just couldn't do that two-stroke thing again."  



As some of you might remember, I bought a Mark II with a Rotax 503 DCSI.  I'm hoping to be able to start flying it by the end of this month.  Is Rick telling me that I should expect a lot of forced landings (or even one)?  I know we should ALWAYS be prepared for forced landings, but I'm wondering does this really happen A LOT?



Are there any Kolbers out there with two-stroke engines with lots of hours that have NOT had to have a forced landing? 	




Not this again - the 2-stroke myths that just will not die.......



First off, the archives of this and many other lists contain a lot of back and forth on the 2-stroke vs 4-stroke issue.  



Second, among a bunch of other things, the experience of the Weedhopper-powered-by-who-knows-what-at-12000rpm days is NOT an applicable description of what you're in for with the proven 2-strokes made by Rotax these days. We don't even live in that world anymore 2-stroke-wise. So you need current experience with 2-strokes to really see what you're in for.



Third, my personal experience: I've flown the 503 for almost a decade with no problems at all, not so much as a hesitation. The only forced landing I've ever had was in my trike powered by a 447 (wiring problem).  



That includes about 100 hours in my old FS II which I just recently sold. No problems with the 503 that was on it. One of many...



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes and forced landing

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  Subject: Re: EAA Sport Pilot article - two-strokes 



I haven't heard anyone speak of that microscopic wall of oil that seperates 

a two stroke from a piston seizure.  Break the oil film for a split second 

and there is a failure.  This is one mode we do not have a problem with very 

often in a stroke.

	




Er, no, you certainly DO have the same hazard lurking in a 4-stroke. The same principle applies - a thin film of oil is used in the hone marks to prevent metal-to-metal contact in both engine types.



Overly rich running or overheating will cause the same breakdown in the 4 with similar results.



c'mon guys, ya'll can do better than this....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

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