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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
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 Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: skis |
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Noel, There are alot of knowledgable people on this site. But none, I mean none, have as much practical knowledge as you. I commend and thank you for your replies to all of our questions.
Pat reilly
Mod 3 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
| Quote: | From: noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: skis
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 11:30:48 -0230
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To get the most heat out of a liquid cooling system you need to be able to divert coolant from the radiator to the heater, just as is done in cars. This means another special valve and re-plumbing the cooling system. When that is done there is obviously less cooling area in operation so even in winter the coolant will achieve hotter temperatures and you will get much hotter temperatures in your cockpit. I expect without a thermostat you will be taking a chance on cold shocking your engine if you turn off the interior heat while in flight. Even with a thermostat I’d operate that heat control very slowly, keeping an eye on the temperature gauge. Also put the control on the left side of the cockpit so a passenger won’t have access to it
You can also try plumbing your heater in series with the radiator that way the hottest water, leaving the engine will pass through your heater core before the radiator. Doing that will save weight but you won’t have any control over the heat other than the fan. It will allow the whole system to operate more efficiently but in the summer, more sq inches of radiator in operation, but you may want to fly with the doors left back on the ground.
[img]cid:image002.jpg(at)01C88FFE.00FA54D0[/img]
Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats
noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 2:33 AM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: skis
At 09:16 PM 3/26/2008, you wrote:
I do not have a thermostat in the system so coolant temps are at the mercy of ambient air temps and my cabin has a lot of drafts so, in my particular plane, it's just about useless. With some work (read $$), maybe.
The thermostat is only 135F. Even with it in you're not going to get much heat unless you're running near the 180F max water temp. On my plane that only happens in the summer on climb-out. Not much requirement for a heater then.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:16 pm Post subject: skis |
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Steve, Why no thermostat? Wouldn't a thermostat be necessary to run in winter in a cold climate?
Pat Reilly
do not archive
[quote] Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 00:16:16 -0400
From: avidfox(at)gmail.com
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: skis
Pat,
The Series 5 I have is equipped with a heater core. Referring to the original Skystar packing list, dated 01/23/95, it was part of "Heater Kit, Single, 912 #69014.000 ". The "Radiator, Cabin Heater" is part #15044.000. The included fan was a 4"
All other parts and part #'s are included in the list also.
The heater does work. But, you wouldn't know it unless you stick your hand under it.
The total efficiency is going to be determined by actual coolant temps and how air tight you cabin is.
I do not have a thermostat in the system so coolant temps are at the mercy of ambient air temps and my cabin has a lot of drafts so, in my particular plane, it's just about useless. With some work (read $$), maybe.
I'm talking about flying in 35' 'F or less, and when you consider wind chill and any altitude, It gets cold. Gloves were mandatory for me this winter.
I am not saying it couldn't be better... it is all due to the individual construction of the plane, and mine has not been modified from the original design.
Steve
84KF
KF5\912UL
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arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
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avidfox
Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: skis |
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"....Wouldn't a (coolant) thermostat be necessary to run in winter in a cold climate?"
Necessary? No.
Desired for comfort? Perhaps.
The engine was not designed with one, not necessary..., and there is no minimum head temp given in the Operations Manual, (10.1 General operating Limitations)....just the max.
Nothing wrong with running cool cylinders, and low head temps in cold weather is just a direct reflection of coolant temps at the cylinders. (Note: coolant temp is not being displayed on the gauge, it's head temp..)
Steve
84KF
KF5\912UL
[quote][b]
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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: skis |
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Steve, What does the term, cold seizure, refer to? I thought it was caused by cooling the engine below operating temps too quickly on no power decent and having rings sieze. Does this happen and wouldn't a thermostat prevent this?
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
[quote] Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 23:57:00 -0400
From: avidfox(at)gmail.com
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: skis
"....Wouldn't a (coolant) thermostat be necessary to run in winter in a cold climate?"
Necessary? No.
Desired for comfort? Perhaps.
The engine was not designed with one, not necessary..., and there is no minimum head temp given in the Operations Manual, (10.1 General operating Limitations)....just the max.
Nothing wrong with running cool cylinders, and low head temps in cold weather is just a direct reflection of coolant temps at the cylinders. (Note: coolant temp is not being displayed on the gauge, it's head temp..)
Steve
84KF
KF5\912UL
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arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
p://forums.matronics.com
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avidfox
Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: skis |
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I believe your example is more descriptive of "shock cooling", a common problem faced when behind an air cooled, hi-performance 4 stroke, although all engines are susceptible if the conditions are right. It's the result of the rapid change in cylinder temps when power is quickly reduced from a sustained cruise RPM, to a much lower RPM, (such as idle) in order to achieve a rapid decent, usually in the approach to landing phase. No buck...No Buck Rogers.
The proper procedure is to make carry throttle in decent, minor throttle changes, and planning ahead by starting descents earlier.
My 912 4 stroke coolant (head) temps, although low in cold air, remain fairly consistent through the flight, including descents, but proper throttle management is still adhered to. And the engine is properly warmed up before takeoff.
It would seem that "cold seizure", somewhat similar, is more a concern to the 2-stroke operators, who would have more first hand information, opinions, and avoidance techniques.
http://www.ultralightnews.ca/advisories1/coldseizure.htm
http://www.ultralightnews.com/engineinfo/coldseizure.htm
Steve
A&P, I.A.
84KF
[quote][b]
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patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: skis |
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Steve, Thank you for the references to cold siezure engine articles. They were excellent. My 582 WILL have a thermostat installed. I will add one. It will help with my heater also.
Do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
[quote] Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:55:22 -0400
From: avidfox(at)gmail.com
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: skis
I believe your example is more descriptive of "shock cooling", a common problem faced when behind an air cooled, hi-performance 4 stroke, although all engines are susceptible if the conditions are right. It's the result of the rapid change in cylinder temps when power is quickly reduced from a sustained cruise RPM, to a much lower RPM, (such as idle) in order to achieve a rapid decent, usually in the approach to landing phase. No buck...No Buck Rogers.
The proper procedure is to make carry throttle in decent, minor throttle changes, and planning ahead by starting descents earlier.
My 912 4 stroke coolant (head) temps, although low in cold air, remain fairly consistent through the flight, including descents, but proper throttle management is still adhered to. And the engine is properly warmed up before takeoff.
It would seem that "cold seizure", somewhat similar, is more a concern to the 2-stroke operators, who would have more first hand information, opinions, and avoidance techniques.
http://www.ultralightnews.ca/advisories1/coldseizure.htm
http://www.ultralightnews.com/engineinfo/coldseizure.htm
Steve
A&P, I.A.
84KF
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arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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rjdaugh
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: skis |
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Noel,
Do you know the part number and source of the appropriate valve? I have pestered people at parts stores and parts departments and have not found any that work. I plumbed my cabin heat core in parallel with the radiator and have a shut off valve that stops the flow to the heater core. There is still a lot of coolant that goes to the radiator. I have thought of a restriction in front of the radiator, but it is a safety issue.
Randy – kinda cold in the winter.
.
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:01 AM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: skis
To get the most heat out of a liquid cooling system you need to be able to divert coolant from the radiator to the heater, just as is done in cars. This means another special valve and re-plumbing the cooling system. When that is done there is obviously less cooling area in operation so even in winter the coolant will achieve hotter temperatures and you will get much hotter temperatures in your cockpit. I expect without a thermostat you will be taking a chance on cold shocking your engine if you turn off the interior heat while in flight. Even with a thermostat I’d operate that heat control very slowly, keeping an eye on the temperature gauge. Also put the control on the left side of the cockpit so a passenger won’t have access to it
You can also try plumbing your heater in series with the radiator that way the hottest water, leaving the engine will pass through your heater core before the radiator. Doing that will save weight but you won’t have any control over the heat other than the fan. It will allow the whole system to operate more efficiently but in the summer, more sq inches of radiator in operation, but you may want to fly with the doors left back on the ground.
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:08 am Post subject: skis |
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I’ll check and see if I can come up with something for you.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 11:53 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: skis
Noel,
Do you know the part number and source of the appropriate valve? I have pestered people at parts stores and parts departments and have not found any that work. I plumbed my cabin heat core in parallel with the radiator and have a shut off valve that stops the flow to the heater core. There is still a lot of coolant that goes to the radiator. I have thought of a restriction in front of the radiator, but it is a safety issue.
Randy – kinda cold in the winter.
.
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:01 AM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: skis
To get the most heat out of a liquid cooling system you need to be able to divert coolant from the radiator to the heater, just as is done in cars. This means another special valve and re-plumbing the cooling system. When that is done there is obviously less cooling area in operation so even in winter the coolant will achieve hotter temperatures and you will get much hotter temperatures in your cockpit. I expect without a thermostat you will be taking a chance on cold shocking your engine if you turn off the interior heat while in flight. Even with a thermostat I’d operate that heat control very slowly, keeping an eye on the temperature gauge. Also put the control on the left side of the cockpit so a passenger won’t have access to it
You can also try plumbing your heater in series with the radiator that way the hottest water, leaving the engine will pass through your heater core before the radiator. Doing that will save weight but you won’t have any control over the heat other than the fan. It will allow the whole system to operate more efficiently but in the summer, more sq inches of radiator in operation, but you may want to fly with the doors left back on the ground.
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:10 am Post subject: skis |
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In the meantime you could use two simple ball valves, one each on the rad and the heater.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 11:53 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: skis
Noel,
Do you know the part number and source of the appropriate valve? I have pestered people at parts stores and parts departments and have not found any that work. I plumbed my cabin heat core in parallel with the radiator and have a shut off valve that stops the flow to the heater core. There is still a lot of coolant that goes to the radiator. I have thought of a restriction in front of the radiator, but it is a safety issue.
Randy – kinda cold in the winter.
.
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:01 AM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: skis
To get the most heat out of a liquid cooling system you need to be able to divert coolant from the radiator to the heater, just as is done in cars. This means another special valve and re-plumbing the cooling system. When that is done there is obviously less cooling area in operation so even in winter the coolant will achieve hotter temperatures and you will get much hotter temperatures in your cockpit. I expect without a thermostat you will be taking a chance on cold shocking your engine if you turn off the interior heat while in flight. Even with a thermostat I’d operate that heat control very slowly, keeping an eye on the temperature gauge. Also put the control on the left side of the cockpit so a passenger won’t have access to it
You can also try plumbing your heater in series with the radiator that way the hottest water, leaving the engine will pass through your heater core before the radiator. Doing that will save weight but you won’t have any control over the heat other than the fan. It will allow the whole system to operate more efficiently but in the summer, more sq inches of radiator in operation, but you may want to fly with the doors left back on the ground.
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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