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panamared5(at)brier.net
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 Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: RV Safey Record |
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| Quote: | >Painting all our opinions with a broad brush and saying we are the cause for
>low safety records of GA is simply a bit too much. Nobody on this list
>built an airplane because they wanted to be stupid and reckless. This is
>just my opinion of course...
Tim, we ARE the cause of our poor safety record. From using questionable
"non-aviation" items, to ignoring problems during the flight test period, to
poor judgment when flying.
Frankly it is time for the RV community to develop a safety program that
highlights the problem areas with the goal of reducing our accident rate
by as much as 25-50% in the next five years.
|
How about some facts to prove that RV pilots are responsible for the
poor GA safety record.
It seems to me that there is a strong lobby of people who want
certified standards to apply to experimentals. If you want to do
this with your RV, fine if you think you can. If you expect to buy a
used RV that meets certified standards, well I don't know?
As far as complying with ADs and SBs, yes I do. But, my oil pump did
not fail until I installed the newer version as required by the
AD. As for Van's fuel tank SB, three years later I am still digging
out proseal from my fuel filter, the result either way is a lack of
fuel flow when there is plenty of fuel.
So maybe, just a hunch, complying with ADs and SBs are not always the
safest thing one can do. Poor judgement in my case was trying to fix
something that was not broken.
And why is safety so important. If I want to kayak a Class V
Whitewater River, who is to say that it is too dangerous and I should
not be allowed to do so, or that I should only Kayak Class II
rivers? To relate this to flying RVs, how many RV accidents could we
prevent if no one flew IMC in an RV? After all IMC flying is much
more dangerous than VFR no wind, no clouds etc. What about outlawing
night flight, or mountain flying, or flying over water or just plain
flying without a purpose? And my pet peeve of all, crashing without
filing a flightplan?
After the EAA Arlington crash a few years ago (the one were a
nonbuilder, did a pull to vertical on takeoff and then completed a
whip stall and landed nose first and killed himself) maybe non
builders should not be allowed to fly RVs? Ridiculous, but I would
like to know how many crashes were by the builder and how many by non builders.
I am all for safety, it is hard to argue against. But turning an
experimental into a certified aircraft that only uses certified parts
and no experimental parts, radios, avionics etc., is not the way.
Somebody define a "questionable non aviation items?"
Bob
RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"
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ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: RV Safey Record |
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I wrote:
| Quote: | Tim, we ARE the cause of our poor safety record. From using questionable
>"non-aviation" items, to ignoring problems during the flight test period,
>to
>poor judgment when flying.
>
>Frankly it is time for the RV community to develop a safety program that
>highlights the problem areas with the goal of reducing our accident rate
>by as much as 25-50% in the next five years.
|
Bob wrote:
| Quote: | How about some facts to prove that RV pilots are responsible for the poor
GA safety record.
|
Bob, it is fact that around 75% of accidents are due to pilot error...RV,
Cessna, Piper, Cirrus.
My point is that there is no reason that the RV community can't improve
the accident rate (lower it) of the RV population.
Personally I would use the AOPA on-line classes as a core. Study those
then come to a forum where the group discusses the common accident factors
and how to avoid it.
You can't stop stupid and you will never get the accident rate to zero. But
let's
be overly optimistic and assume that this safety program cuts the RV
accident
rate 50%.
Here are some of the benefits:
1) More parents around to see their kids grow up.
2) More RVs to buy for non-builders like me.
3) Lower insurance rates (hopefully)
Frankly I am tired of seeing RV accidents and fatalities. Let's step up,
develop
a good safety program, get to as many RV pilots as possible and start
reducing our
accident rate.
Ron Lee
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acepilot(at)bloomer.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject: RV Safey Record |
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Well, the good news is that RV safety records HAVE to be better than ANY
driving safety record...I'm sure more people are killed in my state in
one year on the roads than will EVER be snuffed in an RV...
Scott
do not archive
Ron Lee wrote:
| Quote: |
I wrote:
> Tim, we ARE the cause of our poor safety record. From using
> questionable
>
>> "non-aviation" items, to ignoring problems during the flight test
>> period, to
>> poor judgment when flying.
>>
>> Frankly it is time for the RV community to develop a safety program
>> that
>> highlights the problem areas with the goal of reducing our accident
>> rate
>> by as much as 25-50% in the next five years.
>
Bob wrote:
> How about some facts to prove that RV pilots are responsible for the
> poor GA safety record.
Bob, it is fact that around 75% of accidents are due to pilot error...RV,
Cessna, Piper, Cirrus.
My point is that there is no reason that the RV community can't improve
the accident rate (lower it) of the RV population.
Personally I would use the AOPA on-line classes as a core. Study those
then come to a forum where the group discusses the common accident
factors
and how to avoid it.
You can't stop stupid and you will never get the accident rate to
zero. But let's
be overly optimistic and assume that this safety program cuts the RV
accident
rate 50%.
Here are some of the benefits:
1) More parents around to see their kids grow up.
2) More RVs to buy for non-builders like me.
3) Lower insurance rates (hopefully)
Frankly I am tired of seeing RV accidents and fatalities. Let's step
up, develop
a good safety program, get to as many RV pilots as possible and start
reducing our
accident rate.
Ron Lee
|
--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Flying Corben Junior Ace - Building RV-4
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
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rickpegser(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: RV Safey Record |
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From the maintenance side of the house i have to say that the manufacturers have caused a lot of the bogus parts problem with 300$ wheel bearings that can be had for 50$ at any bearing shop, 500$ voltage regulator that came from a tractor and 2000$ starters. lets be honest a timkin bearing is a timkin bearing. and they often go 200,000 miles on a car. show me the cessna that has 200,000 miles on it's mains. That said the biggest problem i find with homebuilts is the use of non-approved hardware. an bolts are not that expensive, use them. wackie structural mods that you could never get a 337 for on a certified airplane. read and head ac43-13 it would slove a lot of problems. and really bad wiring. the use of industrial grade switches and circuit breakers would go along way towards solving this, instead of the crap you can get at radioshack. don't use toggle switches with plastic handles they break way to easy.
Every aircraft is a design compromise, between performance, safety and cost. it is up to the builder to accept how much compromise you are willing to accept when you start to play with a design. i personally will not fly in a homebuilt fiberglass ship. i don't trust bonds that i can not see much less inspect. i know that aluminum works, and that even boeing and airbus have had problems with composites. Remember your compromise effects not only you but your family and that poor smuck on the ground that you land on.
Fly is a privilege not a right. And while we are allowed to build our own aircraft now, If too many of us get too crazy we will lose that privilege. Just because you can do it, does not mean that you should. Remember the idiot with the helium ballons straped to the lawn chair in los angles. There are very few of us that are qualified to make our own engines from parts in a junk yard. much less conduct the kind of testing that that would require. and if done right those engines would cost ten time what a certified engine costs. Flying is expensive and at some point you have to say i can not afford to do that now. I would love to be building a rv-10 right now but the cessna 120 project will have to do for now. Besides i get to test fly everbody elses airplanes and charge them for it.
this sermon is over and the ushers will now be passing the collection plates for the rv-10 kit. please open your wallets and dig deep
have fun fly safe
rick
Bob <panamared5(at)brier.net> wrote:
[quote]--> RV-List message posted by: Bob
| Quote: | >Painting all our opinions with a broad brush and saying we are the cause for
>low safety records of GA is simply a bit too much. Nobody on this list
>built an airplane because they wanted to be stupid and reckless. This is
>just my opinion of course...
Tim, we ARE the cause of our poor safety record. From using questionable
"non-aviation" items, to ignoring problems during the flight test period, to
poor judgment when flying.
Frankly it is time for the RV community to develop a safety program that
highlights the problem areas with the goal of reducing our accident rate
by as much as 25-50% in the next five years.
|
How about some facts to prove that RV pilots are responsible for the
poor GA safety record.
It seems to me that there is a strong lobby of people who want
certified standards to apply to experimentals. If you want to do
this with your RV, fine if you think you can. If you expect to buy a
used RV that meets certified standards, well I don't know?
As far as complying with ADs and SBs, yes I do. But, my oil pump did
not fail until I installed the newer version as required by the
AD. As for Van's fuel tank SB, three years later I am still digging
out proseal from my fuel filter, the result either way is a lack of
fuel flow when there is plenty of fuel.
So maybe, just a hunch, complying with ADs and SBs are not always the
safest thing one can do. Poor judgement in my case was trying to fix
something that was not broken.
And why is safety so important. If I want to kayak a Class V
Whitewater River, who is to say that it is too dangerous and I should
not be allowed to do so, or that I should only Kayak Class II
rivers? To relate this to flying RVs, how many RV accidents could we
prevent if no one flew IMC in an RV? After all IMC flying is much
more dangerous than VFR no [quote][b]
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rv7(at)b4.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:08 am Post subject: RV Safey Record |
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On 11:05 2008-04-08 RICHARD MILLER <rickpegser(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | i personally will not fly in a homebuilt fiberglass ship. i don't trust
bonds that i can not see much less inspect.
.
|
| Quote: | this sermon is over and the ushers will now be passing the collection
plates for the rv-10 kit. please open your wallets and dig deep
|
How confident will you be in the fibreglass cowling, canopy, wingtips,
empennage tips, fairings, wheelpants, etc. on your RV-10? Have you flown
in someone else's RV-10 with all of those "scary" fibreglass components
attached?
If you want to be cautious about who you fly with, fine, but outright
fearmongering about fibreglass airplanes is really unwarranted. I'm sure
there are just as many examples of poorly built metal airplanes that showed
now signs of problems until they failed.
-Rob
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aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:07 am Post subject: RV Safey Record |
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WARNING: YET ANOTHER AEROBUBBA SAFETY RANT FOLLOWS! SAVE YOURSELF! HIT
DELETE WHILE YOU STILL CAN!
Wow. I'll start with the easiest one:
| Quote: | Take the pilot out of the
equation and put a "perfect" computer in his/her place. Oops, forget
that. Airbus tried that. Remember the Paris Air Show when the computer
landed the Airbus in the woods?
|
Well, I remember the Airbus landing in the woods, but in that case all
seven redundant flight control computers, as well as the autothrottle
computers, were doing precisely what the pilot told them to do. He was
doing (trying to do?) something the plane was never intended to do, and the
situation got away from him and bit him in the butt. Also, there have been
multiple cases where third world operators have gotten into trouble with
'busses because they didn't know how to do what they were trying to do, and
the situation got out of hand. Proper training and understanding would
have prevented 100% of them.
| Quote: | Also, if you go through NTSB crash reports of commercial
aircraft, pilot error is often cited as cause or at least a contributing
factor
|
True. The biggest improvement in air carrier safety occurred through the
late fifties and early sixties. This was due to the conversion to turbine
engines eliminating the reliability issues associated with recips. With
mechanical failures drastically reduced, pilot error became a greater
percentage of accident causation. This lead to a refocusing of accident
prevention to the pilots. Here in GA we still fly recips by and large, and
all the safety training that is now mandatory for 121 is strictly
voluntary, where available, in GA. A while back we had the fatal accident
in LEX. The next one prior, IIRC, was LIT. That's 2 fatals in 3 or 5
years. GA had 216 fatals in 2006. To say that a fatal error by air
carrier crews every couple years is adequate reason to not lift a finger to
help prevent 200+ of our friends from killing themselves each year is...
well, plug in your own adjective.
| Quote: | Humans make mistakes.
|
Uh, Yeah...
NO! To use a gross example, I knew a couple of guys that thought pretty
highly of their skillsets. They knew other mere mortals flew aerobatics,
and as dedicated macho-stud muffins they just knew they were acro pilots as
well. They just hadn't had the opportunity to demonstrate it. So, they
got in a plane, got it up to cruise, and cranked in full aileron expecting
to get a roll. Of course, what they got was a split S. After having
regained their composure, they decided to try it in a lesser performing
aircraft. Guess what? Same input, same results. And these guys were both
ATPs. Now, people roll planes beautifully every day. What's the
difference? Training. Every day our brothers and sisters are out there
doing things they've never done before without getting any training.
Usually they survive, and frequently they don't even break a sweat.
Sometimes they die. As individuals we don't know what we don't know.
Sometimes we learn the depth and breadth of our ignorance a bit too late.
| Quote: | A lot of GA accidents deal with VFR flight
into IFR conditions.
|
That used to be the leading cause. Now the loss leader is called
'maneuvering flight'. It is the leading killer in all of GA, and has an
especially large lead in killing homebuilders. People are getting in over
their heads, 'just flying around'. And you'd never guess the second most
fatal phase of flight for homebuilts - Take off and climb. Take off and
climb? How do you kill yourself taking off? By not being prepared for the
unexpected. The first 10 hours of a homebuilt's life are it's most
dangerous, and especially the very first flight. Statistically, this is
where you are most likely to get bitten.
Also, some other data points / risk factors about those most likely to be
killed: Private pilot, less than 500 TT, less than 100 time in type, SE
fixed gear, and engine/prop failure. Now, how many of those risk factors
apply to the average guy making the first flight in his RV?
| Quote: | I don't think RV pilots have the market cornered on doing things to get
themselves into trouble. Yes, poor decision making perhaps, but I feel
slighted that you think RV pilots are the only ones dumb enough to do
stuff like that...
|
I surely hope you aren't suggesting that because people die in glassairs,
kitfoxes, or whatever, it's okay to kill yourself in an RV. As to the
original poster addressing OUR safety record, well, WE are the audience on
this list. Hopefully there are folks making similar efforts to police the
ranks of the glassair and kitfox lists as well. The only downside to this
effort is that the poster is, de facto, preaching to the choir. The people
we need to be most concerned about don't participate in fora where they
might learn something.
Food for thought: Skydiving was unregulated until enough people exercised
enough bad judgement to bring sufficient attention to the activity in the
public eye to cause restrictive regulations to be enacted. Ditto
ultralights. Do we want to 'mind our own business' while others wreck it
for us, or do we want to lead by example?
glen matejcek
aerobubba(at)earthlink.net
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