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Really bad news....S&F crash
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ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash

I'm still in but have been very busy, can someone do some legwork on this please?



[quote="stshuck2(at)yahoo.com"]Someone stalled it...

  I'm still In..



Iberplanes IGL <iberplanes> wrote:

  [quote]        Oh no again, 

   

   

  What happened to the "independent engineer " we were supposed to pay in order to get the XL checked.......

   

  My condolences to the family. 

   

   

  Alberto Martin

Iberplanes IGL 

http://www.iberplanes.es

Igualada - Barcelona - Españ¡Š

    	  Quote: 	
		    ---

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: Really bad news....S&F crash

hi

The goverment is responsible for the report



Newspapers never follow up on anything



If you look at the goverment database you will get an idea how long things take

On 4/9/08, anna Jones <afjones(at)brazoriainet.com> wrote:

[quote] 



 Wait ,Wait , Wait ,  When ,When , When .

 ---

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash

Yes, I'm still interested, however I haven't had a lot of time for anything other than work for the past month and into the next few months and am only now seeing this thread on my lunch break. I would appreciate it if someone else took the baton on this for awhile. I think there's been enough info in these threads and some of my posts to present to someone to give a quote and take a look-see. I'd be willing to go up to $200, I'd prefer it be less, I believe we had about 30 people interested. 30 people at $200 is a full months pay for som professional. I believe that's reasonable.



[quote="Terry Phillips"]I'm still in. 



 IIRC, Andy Shontz initiated the thread asking listers for a yea or nay on the analysis. So, I'd hope that Andy would take the lead to make the analysis happen. 



 I'm not an aeronautical engineer, and I've never worked in the aerospace industries. Consequently, I don't know any aeronautical engineers. 



 However, a former colleague from Los Alamos is the now Dean of Engineering at Embry-Riddle, Prescott. If Andy is agreeable, I could send him an email to see if he could recommend someone qualified and available to do the analysis. Let me know if you're interested, Andy. He would need to know how much cash was on the table. It would be worth 3 or 4 hundred bucks to me.



 Terry



 

 At 09:47 PM 4/8/2008 +0200, you wrote:

 [quote]Oh no again, 

  

  

 What happened to the "independent engineer " we were supposed to pay in order to get the XL  checked.......

  

 My condolences to the family. 

  

  

 Alberto Martin

 Iberplanes IGL 

 http://www.iberplanes.es

 Igualada - Barcelona - Españ¡›¯quote] 

 

 Terry Phillips

 ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

 Corvallis MT

 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings

 http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/      	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

tonyplane(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:17 am Post subject: Really bad news....S&F crash

FYI:  

 "the aircraft   appeared to struggle to maintain  altitude, and sounded as though it was suffering engine  trouble before impact." 

Excerpt from  [url=/]www.aero-news.net[/url]   for 4/9/08 

"Little is known at this time why  a single-engine CH601 Zodiac crashed Monday afternoon in Polk City, FL, claiming  the life of the pilot and sole occupant onboard.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =  "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> 

Witnesses told local  media the aircraft impacted nose-first near Tavares Road at approximately 1715  local time. The wreckage was partially buried in an area of wooded  terrain. 

Others on the ground  say the aircraft  appeared to  struggle to maintain altitude, and sounded as though it was suffering engine  trouble before impact." 

       Would it be a good idea to investigate funding  an investigation into the  engineering and reliability of the various engines used on the XL ----  or a better idea to wait for the accident  investigation findings into the probable cause. 

Tony Graziano 

XL; N493TG; 364 hours

   [quote][b]

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:33 am Post subject: Really bad news....S&F crash

did not you start this?

I am out

On 4/9/08, ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:

[quote] 



 I'm still in but have been very busy, can someone do some legwork on this

 please?



 [quote="stshuck2(at)yahoo.com"]Someone stalled it...

   I'm still In..



 Iberplanes IGL  wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		          Oh no again,

   What happened to the "independent engineer " we were supposed to pay in

 order to get the XL checked.......



   My condolences to the family.

   Alberto Martin

 Iberplanes IGL

 http://www.iberplanes.es (http://www.iberplanes.es/)

 Igualada - Barcelona - Españ¡Š



 >   ---

 --------

 Andy Shontz

 CH601XL - Corvair

 www.mykitlog.com/ashontz





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175705#175705

pavel569

Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 77

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash

I'm out.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I'm still in but have been very busy, can someone do some legwork on this please?

_________________
Pavel
CA
Zodiac 601XL
Stratus Subaru EA-81
Tail, flaps, ailerons, wings, fuselage, canopy done ...
"do not archive"

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: Really bad news....S&F crash

Andy--I'll take that as a "Go ahead and see if you can get a 

recommendation." I'll send my friend an email to see if he can recommend 

someone to do the analysis. I'll post whatever I learn.



Terry

At 08:16 AM 4/9/2008 -0700, you wrote:

[quote]



Yes, I'm still interested, however I haven't had a lot of time for 

anything other than work for the past month and into the next few months 

and am only now seeing this thread on my lunch break. I would appreciate 

it if someone else took the baton on this for awhile. I think there's been 

enough info in these threads and some of my posts to present to someone to 

give a quote and take a look-see. I'd be willing to go up to $200, I'd 

prefer it be less, I believe we had about 30 people interested. 30 people 

at $200 is a full months pay for som professional. I believe that's reasonable.



[quote="Terry Phillips"]I'm still in.



  IIRC, Andy Shontz initiated the thread asking listers for a yea or nay 

 on the analysis. So, I'd hope that Andy would take the lead to make the 

 analysis happen.



  I'm not an aeronautical engineer, and I've never worked in the aerospace 

 industries. Consequently, I don't know any aeronautical engineers.



  However, a former colleague from Los Alamos is the now Dean of 

 Engineering at Embry-Riddle, Prescott. If Andy is agreeable, I could send 

 him an email to see if he could recommend someone qualified and available 

 to do the analysis. Let me know if you're interested, Andy. He would need 

 to know how much cash was on the table. It would be worth 3 or 4 hundred 

 bucks to me.



  Terry

  At 09:47 PM 4/8/2008 +0200, you wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  Oh no again,

  What happened to the "independent engineer " we were supposed to pay in 

 order to get the XL  checked.......



  My condolences to the family.

  Alberto Martin

  Iberplanes IGL

  http://www.iberplanes.es (http://www.iberplanes.es)

  Igualada - Barcelona - Españ¡›¯quote]



  Terry Phillips

  ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

  Corvallis MT

  601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons 

 are done; working on the wings

  http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ (http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/)

 > [b]

--------

Andy Shontz

CH601XL - Corvair

www.mykitlog.com/ashontz





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175710#175710




	




Terry Phillips

ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

Corvallis MT

601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons 

are done; working on the wings

http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: Really bad news....S&F crash

Guys, guys, guys...



(and Sabrina)



Here's what I know to be true from my visit to the Zenith display at Sun 'n' Fun this morning.  The aircraft that crashed was one of the first 601s made by Czech Aircraft Works (CAW), and was recently acquired by the pilot involved in the accident.  He had owned the airplane for less than two months.  No report on his familiarity with the airplane.



Obviously, we're all saddened by the accident and our hearts go out to the family.  But further speculation on the cause really serves no useful purpose until the facts come in.



As a 601 pilot, I also want to know what's up, if anything.  But I'll leave the investigation to those who have direct engineering knowledge of the airframe, and the professional investigators.  Frankly, Zenith isn't the kind of company that would keep any known (or even suspected) issues hidden in order to sell airframes.



They're just not that kind of people.



And yes, I'll continue to fly my Zodiac in the mean time.



Rick Lindstrom

N42KP





--

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: Really bad news....S&F crash

Thanks Gig for the comment.  We don't need to start any SPECULATIONS here do we??  We should only deal with FACTS and that will take time for Investigators to find those answers and post them.

   

  Regards,

   

  



 

 

  Larry Hursh 

  CH601XL (Building from Kits - Just beginning)

  (N601LL Reserved) 

SkyriderSBN(at)Yahoo.com (SkyriderSBN(at)Yahoo.com)

   

  Keep your eyes skyward - always!

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

ggower_99(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:32 am Post subject: Really bad news....S&F crash

The 601 UL (European) and the 601 XL SP RTF  (for sale in USA) from CZAW  are two diferent airplanes.

   

  I remember talking to Chip (from CZAW),  some time ago, when we bought our 701 RTF (ready To Fly)...  Aabout the less gross weight in the 601 UL. they built, compared to the gross weight for the  XL  RTF they offered as Sport Pilot category in USA.

   

   He told me that  was  that gross weight in the UL, because the European Ultralight regs  have stated that gross weight as limit for the Ultralight category for a two seater.   

  The newer planes (now SP)  were builts directly from the ZAC kits,  until they finish their deal.

   

  Much of the European Uls that now are in the SP category,  had to re design  and  reinforce  (like the SP parts in the 701 kits  from  ZAC),   to comply with the USA new gross limit for the SP category, 

   

  At least this is what I understood from those emails  (if that german guy Altz...something... I cant remember his name ..

   

  Saludos

  Gary Gower

  Flying from Chapala Mexico

  701 912S

  Still building 801 XL kit  Jab 3300.

  DO NOT ARCHIVE.



pavel569 <pm569(at)HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "pavel569" 



According to FAA this N number was made by Czech Aircraft Works , so I guess its the European ultralight version with standard empty weight of 595lbs, max gross weight 992lbs. This type has (POH) the stall speeds as stated on the website 32 resp. 26knots.



--------

Pavel [quote][b]

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: Really bad news....S&F crash

When the witness says both wings folding in together,  makes me remember the pictures I´ve seen for the Barcelona crash. Sorry I cant  share them because of the investigation still going on. 

  

 Alberto Martin

Iberplanes IGL 

http://www.iberplanes.es

Igualada -  Barcelona - España



 [quote]   ---

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Really bad news....S&F crash

Is there any new info about the Barcelona crash? 

[quote="Iberplanes"]When the witness says both wings folding in together,  makes me remember the pictures Iï¿½ve seen for the Barcelona crash. Sorry I cant  share them because of the investigation still going on. 

  

Alberto Martin

 	  Quote: 	
		     ---

_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

tonyplane(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: Really bad news....S&F crash

The other interesting aspect to the photos is  with the amount of energy released with the extreme structural  deformations on impact, there apparently was no post impact fire.   

 That along with  "the  aircraft  appeared to struggle to  maintain altitude, and sounded as though it was suffering engine trouble before  impact." could indicate the possibility of  little or no  

  

 Tony  Graziano

 ------------

             Subject:              Re: Really bad news....S&F        crash        From:              Tim Juhl (juhl(at)avci.net ([email]juhl(at)avci.net?subject=Re:%20Really%20bad%20news....S&F%20crash&replyto=1207758773.m2f.175728(at)forums.matronics.com[/email]))        Date:              [b]Wed Apr 09 - 9:35        AM[/b]

  	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  Sabrina and fellow builders,

It's possible the N numbers were vinyl and the new owner preferred the look of

the 3 inch numbers over the 12 inch.



 	  Quote: 	
		  From what I can see by studying the picture of the aircraft being recovered, both

wings are still associated with the main wreckage with the section of the
	


spar where the fuel tanks rest exposed (tanks probably tore away).  The rudder

and horizontal tail are absent along with the main gear.  I can't tell if the

engine or anything FWF is still attached but it would not be unusual for it to

break free in such an extreme impact.



We will have to wait and hear what the investigators have to say when they eventually

publish their findings unless someone "in the know" releases some info

beforehand.  



 	  Quote: 	
		  From my experience in Search and Rescue, I can tell you that in most cases where

a plane went "straight in" with little damage to nearby foliage and the like
	


it was a "Stall-spin" accident.  It would be premature to assume that such is

the case in this instance but being human, we are all impatient for answers.

For example, the mention of a "heart attack" in the news report was made by

someone with less knowledge of the accident than those of us who monitor this

list.



I think what bothers all of us the most is that we just don't know for sure whether

there is a structural issue with the aircraft or if the problems lies with

how we fly it.  The thought that you could be flying along, doing everything

right and have a wing fail would scare anyone.  On the other hand, if it is an

issue with pilots making abrupt forward elevator movements then we can deal

with that (training and control stops.)  Gig's story of the model airplane is

a perfect example of the forces involved.



As I am still building my XL events such as the recent crash damp my enthusiasm

somewhat, but I am not ready to give up yet.  That said, I do have one request

of Chris Heintz and Zenith aircraft which I can sum up as "Details."  They published

pictures of the most recent structural tests but provided no specific

information on the results.  Was the wing tested to -3 or to - 6 like it says

on my plans.  They talk about an extensive flight test program... I would like

to know the details of such tests.  For example - was the test aircraft exposed

to abrupt full control movements at maneuvering speed without experiencing

damage?  The best way to quell wild speculation is to replace it with facts,

not just assurances.



Pardon me for being so windy...



Tim  Juhl



Do not archive

	
	
   [quote][b]

jim.lanier(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: Really bad news....S&F crash

Well put Tim. I also would like the results of any tests. Were they 

static tests with sand bags or actual? Did they test it both positive 

and negative? Did they test it to failure in order to inspect the spar 

buckle location?

As a pilot who has made a violent evasive maneuver (Sun'n Fun actually 

in 1978) I would like to know the ultimate load of failure. I am SURE 

that in my near death experience with a near miss that I exceeded the 

manufacturer's load specification, but I am still here to talk about it.

Keep in mind I am not referring to the recent accident because we have 

no idea what happened at this point except that 2 observers say the saw 

structural damage

to the craft before impact.



Jim

Tim Juhl wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   





 As I am still building my XL events such as the recent crash damp my enthusiasm somewhat, but I am not ready to give up yet.  That said, I do have one request of Chris Heintz and Zenith aircraft which I can sum up as "Details."  They published pictures of the most recent structural tests but provided no specific information on the results.  Was the wing tested to -3 or to - 6 like it says on my plans.  They talk about an extensive flight test program... I would like to know the details of such tests.  For example - was the test aircraft exposed to abrupt full control movements at maneuvering speed without experiencing damage?  The best way to quell wild speculation is to replace it with facts, not just assurances.



 Pardon me for being so windy...



 Tim  Juhl



 Do not archive



 --------

 ______________

 CFII

 Champ L16A flying

 Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A

 Working on fuselage





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175728#175728

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S&F crash

no news. but as far as I know the investigation is still going on.



Of course, I would let you know as soon as I get more information.



Alberto Martin

Iberplanes IGL

http://www.iberplanes.es

Igualada - Barcelona - España



---

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S&F crash

sorry, but witness are wrong too ie. Austrailia

On 4/9/08, Iberplanes IGL <iberplanes(at)gmail.com> wrote:

[quote] When the witness says both wings folding in together, makes me remember the

 pictures I´ve seen for the Barcelona crash. Sorry I cant share them because

 of the investigation still going on.



 Alberto Martin

 Iberplanes IGL

 http://www.iberplanes.es

 Igualada - Barcelona - España



   ---

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:08 am Post subject: Really bad news....S&F crash

I must not be looking in the right place on the zenith site? Where are any images of a negative G test? The only images I saw were the airframe inverted and sand bags on the lower surfaces of the wing = positive G?



Tim Juhl <juhl(at)avci.net> wrote:[quote]... That said, I do have one request of Chris Heintz and Zenith aircraft which I can sum up as "Details."  They published pictures of the most recent structural tests but provided no specific information on the results.  Was the wing tested to -3 or to - 6 like it says on my plans.  They talk about an extensive flight test program... I would like to know the details of such tests.  For example - was the test aircraft exposed to abrupt full control movements at maneuvering speed without experiencing damage?  The best way to quell wild speculation is to replace it with facts, not  [quote][b]

jim.lanier(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:00 am Post subject: Really bad news....S&F crash

http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html

 

 

 

 David Downey wrote: [quote]I must not be looking in the right place on the zenith site? Where are any images of a negative G test? The only images I saw were the airframe inverted and sand bags on the lower surfaces of the wing = positive G?

   

   Tim Juhl <juhl(at)avci.net> (juhl(at)avci.net) wrote:    	  Quote: 	
		  ... That said, I do have one request of Chris Heintz and Zenith aircraft which I can sum up as "Details." They published pictures of the most recent structural tests but provided no specific information on the results. Was the wing tested to -3 or to - 6 like it says on my plans. They talk about an extensive flight test program... I would like to know the details of such tests. For example - was the test aircraft exposed to abrupt full control movements at maneuvering speed without experiencing damage? The best way to quell wild speculation is to replace it with facts, not           	  Quote: 	
		  



 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
   	
 [b]

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:31 am Post subject: Really bad news....S&F crash

Thank you!!! I must be blind!



"James E. Lanier" <jim.lanier(at)charter.net> wrote:[quote]           http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html

 

 

 

 David Downey wrote: [quote]I must not be looking in the right place on the zenith site? Where are any images of a negative G test? The only images I saw were the airframe inverted and sand bags on the lower surfaces of the wing = positive G?

   

   Tim Juhl <juhl(at)avci.net> (juhl(at)avci.net) wrote:   [quote]... That said, I do have one request of Chris Heintz and Zenith aircraft which I can sum up as "Details." They published pictures of the most recent structural tests but provided no specific information on the results. Was the wing tested to -3 or to - 6 like it says on my plans. They talk about an extensive flight test program... I would like to know the details of such tests. For example - was the test aircraft exposed to abrupt full control movements at maneuvering speed without experiencing damage? The best way to quell wild speculation is to replace it with facts, not          [quote][b]   href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List  href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com   [quote][b]

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: Really bad news....S&F crash

indications at the crash site are that the wings are still in place.  



juan



--

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