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AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:13 am Post subject: The King has no Clothes

Okay, no one is publically discussing the comprehensive and excellent

pictures on the door departure from N416EC.  My count is over 100

followers of this documented build technique.



Would some Articulate and Tactful builder please expand and clarify the

correct installation of door pins as directed in writing by VANS.



Taper IN (towards the POB) or Taper OUT (towards the vast space

outside).  Then secondly, the subject of adequate pin engagement in the

Jam (what is adequate?). Thirdly how to keep the pin engaged during

flight (so buffeting cannot cause the rack to move without human

assistance). And Fourth, the reasonable consideration of a Secondary

Latching mechanism to prevent catastrophic door loss.



I know, I know my wife tells me I am already in the Dog House for even

mentioning the existence of an AFS4500 before it's time.  Have a great

and informative week.  I suspect those of us that do not get to go to

SNF will just keep reading the plans for answers.  Tomorrow I will hover

over the AFS website.



John Cox

#600

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: The King has no Clothes

It's happened a few times now so it's not surprising to see...just

that in this case the door damaged the tail, and there was much

more to clean up.  So yeah, it's a problem that can have more

than just "I need to build a new door" repercussions.  But, it's

still just the same ol' problem.



As far as the taper IN or taper OUT, I'm sure that their

reasoning is that a taper on the outside will tend to

suck the door in to alignment as the pin goes into

the door post.  From a ping engagement length stanpoint,

this gives perhaps a little less pin length to hold the door

all the way in, but the pin should have a lot of

travel to it.  It may ideally be that you don't want to

make that taper quite as long.



The pin should engage plenty, so that there's quite a

bit of pin on the back side of that metal door post.

Lest people think that this is a problem with the nylon

blocks, it's not.  Those shouldn't be part of what holds

the door shut...they're just there as a guide.  The

pin is held by the metal door frame, so not even

the fiberglass should matter much in keeping the door

latched.  This is NOT to say that you wouldn't be

better off with the rivethead door latch pins. I don't

have them, but I see that there are some good benefits

to having them.  Anything you can do to make it better

is good.



Now, on a pin adequacy as built per-plans, I really

feel that if someone has problems of this sort, and they

built the latches with the proper pin length and engagement,

then the fault is squarely on the pilot.  This sort of

accident, with a properly built door/latch, that is

properly secured, just would not happen.  Someone has

to screw up somewhere, to have an incident.  This is

one reason why door latches without some form of positive

latching mechanism shouldn't be considered at all. The

standard van's inside handles, although ugly, are actually

very functional and provide a great positive latch.

I actually have to make sure to instruct the passenger

how to release pressure by pushing the handle down a bit

so they can squeeze the thumb button.  It is very

solid, and just won't move a bit in flight.  No,

vibration won't cause it to move, and there is no

way vibration and airframe flexing will release those pins.

It has to have a screwup on the pilots part, or an

improperly cut pin length, or a broken pin, or something

of that nature.



Should a secondary latching mechanism be used?  Perhaps.

Again, if you can do something to improve it, just like

the rivethead pins, then it might not be a bad idea.

But, you're going to need to do something that will

latch on the forward are of the door bottom...so that

the front of the door can't come out and catch the

200mph breeze.  Straps just won't cut it.  A solid

mechanical latch would, perhaps.  Is it needed?  Well,

it might be a good idea, but again, if you have all the

pins latched right and built it well, you shouldn't have

a big problem the way it is per-plans either.  If

someone comes up with a great kit of parts to do such

a nice latch, with drawings on how to install them, and

especially if you can do it as a retrofit on a flying

plane, then I think they could be successful selling

them.



I took 4 flights this weekend and gave rides to a few

various people.  On every flight, I personally was

the one to latch the door(s)...both of them.  I was

also the one to inspect the pin engagement.   You can

even put your fingers on the pin tips on the back pins.

Considering that the pins are latched, and in place

properly, and built properly, I don't live in fear that

my doors are going to fly off.  I'm awaiting someone

else putting the rivethead system on AFTER having

completed their doors, and if it goes well for them

I'm considering adding them to mine.  The one worry I

have is that I don't particularly like only having the

tips of the pins be nice and solid on those.  It would

be nice to have 6 or more inches of tough pin, bonded

in permanently with threads and loctite, so you never

have to worry about the pin tips letting loose.

Still, it seems like it's a great solution that adds

some security.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

John W. Cox wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Okay, no one is publically discussing the comprehensive and excellent

 pictures on the door departure from N416EC.  My count is over 100

 followers of this documented build technique.

 

 Would some Articulate and Tactful builder please expand and clarify the

 correct installation of door pins as directed in writing by VANS.

 

 Taper IN (towards the POB) or Taper OUT (towards the vast space

 outside).  Then secondly, the subject of adequate pin engagement in the

 Jam (what is adequate?). Thirdly how to keep the pin engaged during

 flight (so buffeting cannot cause the rack to move without human

 assistance). And Fourth, the reasonable consideration of a Secondary

 Latching mechanism to prevent catastrophic door loss.

 

 I know, I know my wife tells me I am already in the Dog House for even

 mentioning the existence of an AFS4500 before it's time.  Have a great

 and informative week.  I suspect those of us that do not get to go to

 SNF will just keep reading the plans for answers.  Tomorrow I will hover

 over the AFS website.

 

 John Cox

 #600

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:31 am Post subject: The King has no Clothes

I added the pins after I had completed my door.  Worked fine.  I rechecked

them this weekend after hearing about the mid air door departure and the

adjustment looked fine.  Per design the pins do not go all the way into the

frame, they only go to the edge so that when they are extended they do not

hit the side of the air frame only the metal block. In normal opening and

closing I have not had the back pin go outside the guide, but I do have to

"help" the passenger door sometimes to get rear pin the hole, otherwise it

will just hit the edge of the block.



Rene' Felker

RV-10 N423CF Flying

801-721-6080

--

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: The King has no Clothes

Important question not adressed in the building instructions.  When placing the latch mechanism inside the latch pocket, is it necessary to cut access holes for the geared arms that interface with the rod pin and the gear so that not only is there a cut in the pocket for the pin, but also the back half of the gear arm. Basically, when the door is open does the handle go up to the 90 degree position or does it go all the way to the 180 degree position. 

 If the pin was just emerging from the door side while the handle was in the 180 degree position(Facing aft), just think how far the pin will travel when the handle is placed in the closed position.  The manual does not state the number of cuts in the latch pockets??????I haven't fitted the entire mechanism yet, but real close so I am not certain of how it is supossed to be..

 JG

 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 11:56:21 -0500

 From: Tim(at)MyRV10.com

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: The King has no Clothes

 --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com>

 It's happened a few times now so it's not surprising to see...just

 that in this case the door damaged the tail, and there was much

 more to clean up. So yeah, it's a problem that can have more

 than just "I need to build a new door" repercussions. But, it's

 still just the same ol' problem.

 As far as the taper IN or taper OUT, I'm sure that their

 reasoning is that a taper on the outside will tend to

 suck the door in to alignment as the pin goes into

 the door post. From a ping engagement length stanpoint,

 this gives perhaps a little less pin length to hold the door

 all the way in, but the pin should have a lot of

 travel to it. It may ideally be that you don't want to

 make that taper quite as long.

 The pin should engage plenty, so that there's quite a

 bit of pin on the back side of that metal door post.

 Lest people think that this is a problem with the nylon

 blocks, it's not. Those shouldn't be part of what holds

 the door shut...they're just there as a guide. The

 pin is held by the metal door frame, so not even

 the fiberglass should matter much in keeping the door

 latched. This is NOT to say that you wouldn't be

 better off with the rivethead door latch pins. I don't

 have them, but I see that there are some good benefits

 to having them. Anything you can do to make it better

 is good.

 Now, on a pin adequacy as built per-plans, I really

 feel that if someone has problems of this sort, and they

 built the latches with the proper pin length and engagement,

 then the fault is squarely on the pilot. This sort of

 accident, with a properly built door/latch, that is

 properly secured, just would not happen. Someone has

 to screw up somewhere, to have an incident. This is

 one reason why door latches without some form of positive

 latching mechanism shouldn't be considered at all. The

 standard van's inside handles, although ugly, are actually

 very functional and provide a great positive latch.

 I actually have to make sure to instruct the passenger

 how to release pressure by pushing the handle down a bit

 so they can squeeze the thumb button. It is very

 solid, and just won't move a bit in flight. No,

 vibration won't cause it to move, and there is no

 way vibration and airframe flexing will release those pins.

 It has to have a screwup on the pilots part, or an

 improperly cut pin length, or a broken pin, or something

 of that nature.

 Should a secondary latching mechanism be used? Perhaps.

 Again, if you can do something to improve it, just like

 the rivethead pins, then it might not be a bad idea.

 But, you're going to need to do something that will

 latch on the forward are of the door bottom...so that

 the front of the door can't come out and catch the

 200mph breeze. Straps just won't cut it. A solid

 mechanical latch would, perhaps. Is it needed? Well,

 it might be a good idea, but again, if you have all the

 pins latched right and built it well, you shouldn't have

 a big problem the way it is per-plans either. If

 someone comes up with a great kit of parts to do such

 a nice latch, with drawings on how to install them, and

 especially if you can do it as a retrofit on a flying

 plane, then I think they could be successful selling

 them.

 I took 4 flights this weekend and gave rides to a few

 various people. On every flight, I personally was

 the one to latch the door(s)...both of them. I was

 also the one to inspect the pin engagement. You can

 even put your fingers on the pin tips on the back pins.

 Considering that the pins are latched, and in place

 properly, and built properly, I don't live in fear that

 my doors are going to fly off. I'm awaiting someone

 else putting the rivethead system on AFTER having

 completed their doors, and if it goes well for them

 I'm considering adding them to mine. The one worry I

 have is that I don't particularly like only having the

 tips of the pins be nice and solid on those. It would

 be nice to have 6 or more inches of tough pin, bonded

 in permanently with threads and loctite, so you never

 have to worry about the pin tips letting loose.

 Still, it seems like it's a great solution that adds

 some security.

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

 John W. Cox wrote:

 > --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>

 > 

 > Okay, no one is publically discussing the comprehensive and excellent

 > pictures on the door departure from N416EC. My count is over 100

 > followers of this documented build technique.

 > 

 > Would some Articulate and Tactful builder please expand and clarify the

 > correct installation of door pins as directed in writing by VANS.

 > 

 > Taper IN (towards the POB) or Taper OUT (towards the vast space

 > outside). Then secondly, the subject of adequate pin engagement in the

 > Jam (what is adequate?). Thirdly how to keep the pin engaged during

 > flight (so buffeting cannot cause the rack to move without human

 > assistance). And Fourth, the reasonable consideration of a Secondary

 > Latching mechanism to prevent catastrophic door loss.

 > 

 > I know, I know my wife tells me I am already in the Dog House for even

 > mentioning the existence of an AFS4500 before it's time. Have a great

 > and informative week. I suspect those of us that do not get to go to

 > SNF will just keep reading the plans for answers. Tomorrow I will hover

 > over the AFS website.

 > 

 &======

  [quote][b]

seipel(at)seznam.cz
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

I installed mine after the fact, and was able to do it just fine.  I 

took a 7/16" drill and went all the way through the Rivethead blocks, as 

well as the door frame, so my pins go all the way through and can be 

felt out the back side.



PJ Seipel

RV-10 #40032



Rene Felker wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I added the pins after I had completed my door.  Worked fine.  I rechecked

 them this weekend after hearing about the mid air door departure and the

 adjustment looked fine.  Per design the pins do not go all the way into the

 frame, they only go to the edge so that when they are extended they do not

 hit the side of the air frame only the metal block. In normal opening and

 closing I have not had the back pin go outside the guide, but I do have to

 "help" the passenger door sometimes to get rear pin the hole, otherwise it

 will just hit the edge of the block.



 Rene' Felker

 RV-10 N423CF Flying

 801-721-6080

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

One thing I'm not quite sure I understand about the initial posting

origination and that website.  Not sure that it matters but...

 From information that is pretty reliable that I have been told,

the person who posted the thread and page about that door separation

on 416EC isn't actually the person who was flying the plane at the

time, although that information isn't being presented.  The other

perhaps stranger bit of left out information is that the 4G landing

that was described actually happened on a landing prior to the

door separation, and presumably that caused some of the cracking

of the airframe and popped rivets under the wing and such.  Also,

the gear leg fairings and wheel fairings were crunched pretty good.

So considering there was so much other damage that would not be

attributable to the door itself, it's a bit strange that it isn't

being offered up that the other damage happened prior.



Oh well, just curious, because the source I had (yes, I've known

about that incident for a while now) is pretty reliable.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Rene Felker wrote:

[quote] 

 

 I added the pins after I had completed my door.  Worked fine.  I rechecked

 them this weekend after hearing about the mid air door departure and the

 adjustment looked fine.  Per design the pins do not go all the way into the

 frame, they only go to the edge so that when they are extended they do not

 hit the side of the air frame only the metal block. In normal opening and

 closing I have not had the back pin go outside the guide, but I do have to

 "help" the passenger door sometimes to get rear pin the hole, otherwise it

 will just hit the edge of the block.

 

 Rene' Felker

 RV-10 N423CF Flying

 801-721-6080

 --

daveleikam(at)wi.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

Tim,

Are you suggesting that the hard landing damage may have caused the later 

door failure?



Dave Leikam



---

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

That does make a little more sense. Possible structural damage prior to the

loss of the door. I wondered how the left dor block got so beat up. 



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:13 am Post subject: The King has no Clothes

I'm not saying I know how the plane was damaged, but what I heard

from a reliable source that was a firsthand source, was that the

plane was landed hard with that 4G landing, prior to the door

departure flight.  If and how those events are tied together, is

all speculation.  But, things like the cracking in front of

the windshield, and popped rivets under the wing, and cracked

wheel fairings and leg fairings would seem to indicate at least

something significant happened to that plane only a couple of

flight hours before the door came off.  Not sure how the events

may or may not relate, but it would be nice if the story actually

happened that way that it was presented that way, right?



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Dave Leikam wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Tim,

 Are you suggesting that the hard landing damage may have caused the 

 later door failure?

 

 Dave Leikam

 

 ---

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: The King has no Clothes

it would be even more nice if they repaired an obviously damaged plane 

before flying it.. Looks like a "red X" in my maintanence book.



Pascal

---

AirMike

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

I cannot imagine why anyone flying an RV10 does not install the very excellent Rivethead door pins. They are tedious to install and adjust, but they are really sweet and center the closure on the door giving a positive feel when closing your door plus the whole install feels very strong

_________________
See you OSH '18
Q/B - sold.

VHMUM(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:19 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

Maybe because you pay and they may or may not turn up. Sorry to be negative 

but if the hat fits.



regards Chris

---

John Ackerman

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Prescott, AZ

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:32 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

Here's another vote for the Rivethead latch pin setup. It's not exceptionally hard to install. I made a thick linen/phenolic [Micarta]  template and used it as a drill guide. The doors close easily and are _very_ solid once closed.Yes, it's hard to get in contact with Dave, but my  deliveries of several of his items were timely. I don't know of anyone who paid and did not get what he paid for on any of his  items.  

I have had no problem with simply sending payment for what I want, and the quality is a delight.

No relationship, just a satisfied customer.

John Ackerman 40458

do not archive



On Apr 8, 2008, at 10:16 PM, Chris and Susie McGough wrote:[quote] [quote][b]

capsteve

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 111
Location: NIAGARA FALLS NY

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:58 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

When I went to install a set in my rv10, I modified them to be much easier

to install. After seeing my mods coupled with the shipping delays I was

asked to reproduce a similar  product by a few builders. I think they are a

very good anchor for the door rods to latch into, and should add a margin of

strength to the latch mech. I do offer them on my website (available

immediately  sorry for the commercial announcement, I just want all to

know there are options...

Steve dinieri

Iflyrv10.com  



[quote] --

DSC09744.JPG

Description:

Filesize:

142.02 KB

Viewed:

545 Time(s)

roadmaps

Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 49

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:16 am Post subject: The King has no Clothes

Steve,



How much for a set?



John Testement

jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com

40321

Richmond, VA

Painting

do not archive

 



--

capsteve

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 111
Location: NIAGARA FALLS NY

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:58 am Post subject: The King has no Clothes

John,

	99 gets you parts for both doors, aluminum sockets, stainless pins

with magnets, 10-32 stainless allen-screws and platenuts. Includes priority

shipping (3 day) usps.



Thanks steve

Iflyrv10.com





--

scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:59 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

I have ordered the Rivethead door pins and I'm looking forward to installing them. 

Is anyone concerned about cutting the door rod and having a weak point where it threads in?  

Does anyone have any concerns about the system being less robust than the standard rods?

 

Scott Schmidt

scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com

---

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

That was my concern as well.  I really would like to do it but

it would be nice to get the pins in hand so you can see exactly

where the threaded connection is.  I'd really prefer to have 4 or

6 inches of pin before the threaded area, because I don't want

to tap my pins, and then have that junction crack, the pin to

fall out of the main rod, and then have the door come off.

With enough pin both inside the door and inside the frame though

that is one solid piece, I'd have no worry.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Scott Schmidt wrote:

[quote] I have ordered the Rivethead door pins and I'm looking forward to 

 installing them.

 Is anyone concerned about cutting the door rod and having a weak point 

 where it threads in? 

 Does anyone have any concerns about the system being less robust than 

 the standard rods?

  

 Scott Schmidt

 scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com

 

 

 ---

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

My general comment would be no, I do not have any concerns.  The end of the rod was already threaded per plans and all I did was fill them. ( Not exactly since I cut and threaded the rods again to shorten them.) But, they are not real tight.  After 25 flight hours and the web traffic from last week, I inspected them and did not see any signs of wear.  I rechecked their alignment and put some locktite on the threads.  I installed mine per the video and thus they do not extend all the way into the cabin frame, only into the block itself.  I am re-thinking that………..  

   

Also, when you install the blocks there is very little room between the AL blocks and the nylon blocks in the door.  I had to cut down the blocks on the door just to get the door to close.  I think this closer tolerance helps to reduce the stress on the rod itself.     

     

Rene' Felker  

RV-10 N423CF Flying  

801-721-6080  

        

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt

 Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 3:56 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: The King has no Clothes  

  

     

I have ordered the Rivethead door pins and I'm looking forward to installing them. 

 Is anyone concerned about cutting the door rod and having a weak point where it threads in?  

 Does anyone have any concerns about the system being less robust than the standard rods?    

   

  

Scott Schmidt

 scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com    

     

----- Original Message ----

 From: AirMike <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net>

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 10:58:54 PM

 Subject: Re: The King has no Clothes   	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
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4 	  Quote: 	
		   	
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9

  

  

  

       [quote][b]

seipel(at)seznam.cz
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

I am concerned about it.  Not sure how to fix it though.



PJ Seipel

RV-10 #40032



Scott Schmidt wrote:

[quote] I have ordered the Rivethead door pins and I'm looking forward to 

 installing them.

 Is anyone concerned about cutting the door rod and having a weak point 

 where it threads in? 

 Does anyone have any concerns about the system being less robust than 

 the standard rods?

  

 Scott Schmidt

 scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com

 ---

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