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The King has no Clothes
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millstees(at)ameritech.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

Scott:

  

 You just cut off the pointed end of the rod, and tap it  with a 5/16-24 tap, screw the point in, and set it with some lok-tite.   Works like a charm.

  

  

Steve Mills N750SM (reserved)

RV-10 40486 Slow-build   Eggenfellner E-6TI

Naperville, Illinois

Finishing kit, engine  install

 



   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott  Schmidt

Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 4:56 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: The King has no  Clothes

 

 I  have ordered the Rivethead door pins and I'm looking forward to installing them.  

Is anyone concerned about cutting the door rod and having a weak point where  it threads in?  

Does anyone have any concerns about the system being  less robust than the standard rods?

  

Scott Schmidt

scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com

 



 -----  Original Message ----

From: AirMike <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net>

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 10:58:54 PM

Subject:  Re: The King has no Clothes



[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:54 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

The one thing about the Rivethead receiver/pins arrangement that I'm not 

comfortable with is that they are designed so that the machined pins are 

captured by the  receiver itself and do not project through the door 

frame and the intercostal. IF (Big IF!!!) the fit of the doors is such 

that  there is some room for them to shift fore and aft, AND IF (another 

BIG IF!!!) the pressure inside the cabin is enough to cause some 

deformation and 'bowing' of the door itself, there MIGHT  be a case for  

the  pins pulling out of the receiver and opening.

HOWEVER, if the pins are inserted so that they pass all of the way 

through the receivers and the doorframes / intercostals, this is a MUCH 

less likely scenario. I think the down side is that with the longer 

pins, it raises the risk of the pins being exposed and damaging the 

paint in that region. I fit mine so they are longer and project through 

the door and frame, BUT I definitely have the likelihood for paint damage.



Deems Davis # 406

'Its all done....Its just not put together'

http://deemsrv10.com/



Scott Schmidt wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have ordered the Rivethead door pins and I'm looking forward to 

 installing them.

 Is anyone concerned about cutting the door rod and having a weak point 

 where it threads in? 

 Does anyone have any concerns about the system being less robust than 

 the standard rods?

  

 Scott Schmidt

 scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com



 *

 *

rv(at)thelefflers.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

I’m a little naive here since I’m just building wings.  Couldn’t somebody like Rivethead-Aero or Steven DiNieri make new longer rods?  I’m assuming that the short pins they send are screwed into existing rods.  

   

   

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt

 Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:56 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: The King has no Clothes  

  

  

     

I have ordered the Rivethead door pins and I'm looking forward to installing them. 

 Is anyone concerned about cutting the door rod and having a weak point where it threads in?  

 Does anyone have any concerns about the system being less robust than the standard rods?    

   

  

Scott Schmidt

 scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com    

     

---

capsteve

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 111
Location: NIAGARA FALLS NY

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

I can make pins as long as needed, but consider the loads on the door pins are in shear. The likelihood that the rods or end pins break would be very low given that the doors (uhmw blocks) are touching the blocks in the door jamb. There is very little space. It would take a lot of force to shear a steel line with a stainless fastener threaded within. More likely would be the door flexing as deems pointed out or the blocks themselves tearing out somehow.   

Once installed and operating it’s quite apparent that the guides and pins door fastener system is much more secure than the factory setup. With the factory setup you can get some fore aft movement out of the door even after its been latched.   

   

Your mileage may vary….  

Steven dinieri  

Iflyrv10.com  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler

 Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 7:04 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: The King has no Clothes  

  

   

I’m a little naive here since I’m just building wings.  Couldn’t somebody like Rivethead-Aero or Steven DiNieri make new longer rods?  I’m assuming that the short pins they send are screwed into existing rods.  

   

   

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt

 Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:56 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: The King has no Clothes  

  

  

     

I have ordered the Rivethead door pins and I'm looking forward to installing them. 

 Is anyone concerned about cutting the door rod and having a weak point where it threads in?  

 Does anyone have any concerns about the system being less robust than the standard rods?    

   

  

Scott Schmidt

 scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com    

     

----- Original Message ----

 From: AirMike <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net>

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 10:58:54 PM

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       [quote][b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

My impression is that N416EC was a Saint Aviation, VANS directive, Factory approved “Standard Install”.  Hence the header “The King has no clothes”.  All of those followers in the crowd to the “As Written Instructions” might reflect careful on this particular style of installation.  

   

Every improvement is worth the pursuit.  I have enjoyed the discussion and the enlightenment….. So Thank You all.  

   

Four good people and three fine aircraft lost in six months is simply too many.  

   

JC  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven DiNieri

 Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 4:49 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: The King has no Clothes  

  

   

I can make pins as long as needed, but consider the loads on the door pins are in shear. The likelihood that the rods or end pins break would be very low given that the doors (uhmw blocks) are touching the blocks in the door jamb. There is very little space. It would take a lot of force to shear a steel line with a stainless fastener threaded within. More likely would be the door flexing as deems pointed out or the blocks themselves tearing out somehow.   

Once installed and operating it’s quite apparent that the guides and pins door fastener system is much more secure than the factory setup. With the factory setup you can get some fore aft movement out of the door even after its been latched.   

   

Your mileage may vary….  

Steven dinieri  

Iflyrv10.com  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler

 Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 7:04 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: The King has no Clothes  

  

   

I’m a little naive here since I’m just building wings.  Couldn’t somebody like Rivethead-Aero or Steven DiNieri make new longer rods?  I’m assuming that the short pins they send are screwed into existing rods.  

   

   

       

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt

 Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:56 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: The King has no Clothes  

  

  

     

I have ordered the Rivethead door pins and I'm looking forward to installing them. 

 Is anyone concerned about cutting the door rod and having a weak point where it threads in?  

 Does anyone have any concerns about the system being less robust than the standard rods?    

   

  

Scott Schmidt

 scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com    

     

----- Original Message ----

 From: AirMike <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net>

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 10:58:54 PM

 Subject: Re: The King has no Clothes   	  Quote: 	
		     http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List 	
 	  Quote: 	
		   	
 	  Quote: 	
		  http://forums.matronics.com 	
 	  Quote: 	
		   	
 	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	
 	  Quote: 	
		   	
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[/b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List 	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	
http://forums.matronics.com[/b] 	  Quote: 	
		  [b]http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	


      [quote][b]

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

After the 416EC thing surfaced I called the consulting  engineer for my project (actually the neighbor lady with a PhD in ME from  Caltech). After discussion she suggested several things. The flexing of the door  could be stiffened by additional glass ion the inner side, preferably in the  shape of an angle running fore to aft. Secondly she made the point that the  fatigue ratio of stainless to aluminum is a factor of 10. If one is concerned  about the working cycle of bending and scraping these pins to close the door, a  thousand cycles could be of concern. As for me, mine is ready to fly with the  standard closure but down the road I will seriously consider the replacement of  the pins and the door bulkhead bushings with stainless.

   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rene  Felker

Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 3:29 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: The King has no  Clothes

My general comment  would be no, I do not have any concerns.  The end of the rod was already  threaded per plans and all I did was fill them. ( Not exactly since I cut and  threaded the rods again to shorten them.) But, they are not real tight.   After 25 flight hours and the web traffic from last week, I inspected them and  did not see any signs of wear.  I rechecked their alignment and put some  locktite on the threads.  I installed mine per the video and thus they do  not extend all the way into the cabin frame, only into the block itself.  I  am re-thinking that……….. 

Also, when you install  the blocks there is very little room between the AL blocks and the nylon blocks in the  door.  I had to cut down the blocks on the door just to get the door to  close.  I think this closer tolerance helps to reduce the stress on the rod  itself.    

Rene'  Felker 

RV-10 N423CF  Flying 

801-721-6080

From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt

Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 3:56  PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: The King has no  Clothes

I have ordered the Rivethead door pins and I'm looking  forward to installing them. 

Is anyone concerned about cutting the door rod  and having a weak point where it threads in?  

Does anyone have any  concerns about the system being less robust than the standard  rods?  

Scott  Schmidt

scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com  

---

LarryRosen

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 415
Location: Medford, NJ

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

Close to standard install. There is a metal plate between the plastic 

block and the door frame, that on the outboard side is bent aft. This is 

so when someone tries to close the door with the door pins out it does 

not chip the paint. Minor mod, probably had not negative effect, but a 

mod none the less.



Larry

do not archive



John W. Cox wrote:

[quote]

 My impression is that N416EC was a Saint Aviation, VANS directive, 

 Factory approved “Standard Install”. Hence the header “The King has no 

 clothes”. All of those followers in the crowd to the “As Written 

 Instructions” might reflect careful on this particular style of 

 installation.



 Every improvement is worth the pursuit. I have enjoyed the discussion 

 and the enlightenment….. So Thank You all.



 Four good people and three fine aircraft lost in six months is simply 

 too many.



 JC



 ------------------------------------------------------------------------



 *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Steven 

 DiNieri

 *Sent:* Wednesday, April 09, 2008 4:49 PM

 *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 *Subject:* RE: Re: The King has no Clothes



 I can make pins as long as needed, but consider the loads on the door 

 pins are in shear. The likelihood that the rods or end pins break 

 would be very low given that the doors (uhmw blocks) are touching the 

 blocks in the door jamb. There is very little space. It would take a 

 lot of force to shear a steel line with a stainless fastener threaded 

 within. More likely would be the door flexing as deems pointed out or 

 the blocks themselves tearing out somehow.



 Once installed and operating it’s quite apparent that the guides and 

 pins door fastener system is much more secure than the factory setup. 

 With the factory setup you can get some fore aft movement out of the 

 door even after its been latched.



 Your mileage may vary….



 Steven dinieri



 Iflyrv10.com



 ------------------------------------------------------------------------



 *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Bob Leffler

 *Sent:* Wednesday, April 09, 2008 7:04 PM

 *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 *Subject:* RE: Re: The King has no Clothes



 I’m a little naive here since I’m just building wings. Couldn’t 

 somebody like Rivethead-Aero or Steven DiNieri make new longer rods? 

 I’m assuming that the short pins they send are screwed into existing rods.



 *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Scott Schmidt

 *Sent:* Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:56 PM

 *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 *Subject:* Re: Re: The King has no Clothes



 I have ordered the Rivethead door pins and I'm looking forward to 

 installing them.

 Is anyone concerned about cutting the door rod and having a weak point 

 where it threads in?

 Does anyone have any concerns about the system being less robust than 

 the standard rods?



 Scott Schmidt

 scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com



 ---

_________________
Larry Rosen
#40356
N205EN (reserved)
<http>

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

Are you saying that both doors were not found at each crash  site? That certainly is one of my questions for the last two  fatals

   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John W.  Cox

Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:13 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: The King has no  Clothes

My impression is that  N416EC was a Saint Aviation, VANS directive, Factory approved “Standard  Install”.  Hence the header “The King has no clothes”.  All of those  followers in the crowd to the “As Written Instructions” might reflect careful on  this particular style of installation. 

Every improvement is  worth the pursuit.  I have enjoyed the discussion and the enlightenment…..  So Thank You all. 

Four good people and  three fine aircraft lost in six months is simply too many. 

JC 

From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven DiNieri

Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 4:49  PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: The King has no  Clothes

I can make  pins as long as needed, but consider the loads on the door pins are in shear.  The likelihood that the rods or end pins break would be very low given that the  doors (uhmw blocks) are touching the blocks in the door jamb. There is very  little space. It would take a lot of force to shear a steel line with a  stainless fastener threaded within. More likely would be the door flexing as  deems pointed out or the blocks themselves tearing out somehow.   

Once  installed and operating it’s quite apparent that the guides and pins door  fastener system is much more secure than the factory setup. With the factory  setup you can get some fore aft movement out of the door even after its been  latched.  

Your  mileage may vary…. 

Steven  dinieri 

Iflyrv10.com 

From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler

Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 7:04  PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: The King has no  Clothes

I’m a  little naive here since I’m just building wings.  Couldn’t somebody like  Rivethead-Aero or Steven DiNieri make new longer rods?  I’m assuming that  the short pins they send are screwed into existing rods. 

From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt

Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:56  PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: The King has no  Clothes

I have ordered the Rivethead door pins and  I'm looking forward to installing them. 

Is anyone concerned about cutting  the door rod and having a weak point where it threads in?  

Does anyone  have any concerns about the system being less robust than the standard  rods?  

Scott  Schmidt

scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com  

----- Original  Message ----

From: AirMike <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net>

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 10:58:54 PM

Subject:  Re: The King has no Clothes 	  Quote: 	
		     http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List 	
 	  Quote: 	

 	  Quote: 	
		  http://forums.matronics.com 	
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		  http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	
 	  Quote: 	

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0 	  Quote: 	

1 	  Quote: 	

2[/b] [/quote]3 	  Quote: 	

4http://forums.matronics.com[/b] [/quote]5 	  Quote: 	

6

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7    [quote][b]

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

Also Guys & Gals,  

EVERY -10 I looked at here at SNF today...almost all of them I hadn't seen before, had very visible signs of scarring on the aft block. It is very apparent that door slamming and multiple locking attempts are taking their toll on the entire locking system. FWIW all I looked at had the delrin blocks, I didn't see any of the rivethead blocks, I really think the pulling of the door closed forward of the center of the door is leaving the aft section out of alignment, no new news here, we all know that from many past posts. Bottom line, with David's remarks regarding number of cycles, it seems to be very important to get the door into position and flush before trying to engage the pins to prevent this wear.It's a matter of time before there is a  greater catastrophic loss waiting to happen than the one that sparked my post about it on VAF. I want everyone to also consider the fact that these doors "leave" the airplane....consider where they may fall.....playground, school, bus stop.....think about the potential person who may fall victim of a falling aircraft door. 

I deal with construction safety and stats all day long, before every fatal injury in my business there is an escalation of "incidents" that stops when the fatality occur. After the catastrophe it drops sharply to a level about half of the normal incident rate, climbs to the "normal" or expected/average rate, holds there for quite awhile until the cycle starts over and begins to climb. It's at that time when I see the climb we start to focus with more vigor our efforts to communicate, remind, train, enforce what ever it takes to get every ones minds back into safe mode. This is no different, folks we are climbing, time to focus on and fix the problem before it spikes. The graphs are very sobering, almost like an EKG readout. Lets not go the way of the Lancair people, nip it in the bud  lest we will  pay very much higher insurance rates and worse....our friends, family neighbors blood 

Rick Sked 

do not archive

---

John Ackerman

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Prescott, AZ

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:59 pm Post subject: The King has no Clothes

Folks, here is the Rivethead setup on our plane - Our parts were among  

the first made, and came sans instructions, so we proceeded to install  

them using what common sense was available...  



We cut the aluminum tubing latch pins, which had already been  

internally threaded for the standard installation, to a length that  

left the Rivethead bullet ends protruding just 1/16" or so out of the  

plastic block on the door with the door latch handle in in the fully  

open (pins retracted) position.



In the fully closed position, the bullet ends protrude through the  

Rivethead aluminum block, through the glass doorframe, and through the  

heavy aluminum vertical F1005C  and F1042 Bulkhead Side Channels by  

1/4" or more.

"Receiver" is the name Deems uses for the block - I like it!   The  

joint where the bullet end butts up against the aluminum tubing latch  

pin is completely contained in the "receiver". The joint thus takes  

almost no loads at all.



The aluminum tubing latch pins take all the load in shear over a very  

short distance - the plastic block in the door tries to move outward  

and the "receiver" stubbornly refuses to go along. I'm not sure, but I  

think the threaded end of the bullet fills the interior of the  

aluminum tube in the area subjected to the shear load.



I can 't see an even remotely likely structural failure mode  

_provided_that_the_ doors_ are_closed _and_ latched_properly. Knock  

wood!  The receiver is held in place by two #10  screws that pass  

through the side channels and fiberglass door frame and into the  

receiver; they carry the forces on the block to the airframe structure  

(Bulkhead Side Channels)



Oh yeah - the doors close very easily (provided the little pins  

attaching the latch pins to the racks don't get hung up)

and the latchup seems extremely solid. I can't detect any relative  

motion at all when I grab the door and shake it.



John Ackerman 40458



On Apr 9, 2008, at 3:51 PM, Deems Davis wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The one thing about the Rivethead receiver/pins arrangement that I'm  

 not comfortable with is that they are designed so that the machined  

 pins are captured by the  receiver itself and do not project through  

 the door frame and the intercostal. IF (Big IF!!!) the fit of the  

 doors is such that  there is some room for them to shift fore and  

 aft, AND IF (another BIG IF!!!) the pressure inside the cabin is  

 enough to cause some deformation and 'bowing' of the door itself,  

 there MIGHT  be a case for  the  pins pulling out of the receiver  

 and opening.

 HOWEVER, if the pins are inserted so that they pass all of the way  

 through the receivers and the doorframes / intercostals, this is a  

 MUCH less likely scenario. I think the down side is that with the  

 longer pins, it raises the risk of the pins being exposed and  

 damaging the paint in that region. I fit mine so they are longer and  

 project through the door and frame, BUT I definitely have the  

 likelihood for paint damage.



 Deems Davis # 406

 'Its all done....Its just not put together'

 http://deemsrv10.com/



 Scott Schmidt wrote:

> I have ordered the Rivethead door pins and I'm looking forward to  

> installing them.

> Is anyone concerned about cutting the door rod and having a weak  

> point where it threads in? Does anyone have any concerns about the  

> system being less robust than the standard rods?

> Scott Schmidt

> scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com

>

> *

> *

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