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Really bad news....S
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Joshua

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 7

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Really bad news....S

What kind of example are you setting for new list members? Well I'll tell you Tim. Ive been reading the list for almost a year now while I pick away at the beginning of my 701 build and I'll tell you what. I'll most certainly look elsewhere for information when I need help.

You know what the irony is? I really see this thing the other way around. Maybe I'm the only one. It sure seems to me that Ive never really seen Andy be disrespectful to anyone before this post. I have seen Andy attacked over and over and for simply stating his opinions and ideas. I have seen him sarcastically shrug these attacks off over and over. Ive have never seen a post in which Andy pushes his ideas on anyone or claims them to be anything other than his own speculation.

Now i don't know Andy or any of you. But let me tell you how it really looks from an entirely neutral point of view.

Gig Giacona- You slam this Andy guy constantly. You have used MANY forms of disrespect, and snide comments. You join in his conversations with other people over and over and attacked him completely unprovoked. You have never once made an effort to prove his ideas wrong but clearly you disagree with his right to have them. In fact you quite blatantly ASSUME that Andy does not know what he is talking about! Read your own posts. Its all there. You dont have to save us new builders from following in Andy's footsteps. Zenith already told us about guys like him. You must ASSUME that new builders like me are pretty stupid and just go modifying our planes according to what some guy on the internet says.

Frankly I'm surprised Andy has not had more to say before this. Hes the one who gets repeatedly disrespected. I dont think he owes anyone an apology. He could not have been more provoked.



Yup. This is probably not the place for me. See, Ive got IDEAS. Lots of Ideas, and clearly ideas are not welcome here.

Its also fairly safe to assume that I dont know what Im talking about.

Very safe.

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:33 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S

Dear Matt. 



I was about to write the same you did. Of course Zenith is not Boeing, but when a plane crashes in the USA they might have the chance to go there and check on site. 100 % with your comment, 



Take care, 

 

Alberto Martin 

www.iberplanes.es

Igualada - Barcelona - Spain.



2008/4/11, Matt Ronics <e_jocular(at)yahoo.com (e_jocular(at)yahoo.com)>:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt Ronics" <e_jocular(at)yahoo.com (e_jocular(at)yahoo.com)>

 

 Some of you people seem to be happily willing to go down in a 601XL just to spite everyone else.

  

 Chris Heintz et al need to go an personally inspect these airframes.  Burt Rutan flew out and inspected a Varieze that crashed on account of a structural failure.  As it turns out, the builder didn't follow the plans.  Read for yourself here:

  

 http://www.ez.org/cp33-5.htm

 

 Note the sentence: "Prior to this accident the VariEze type had amassed approximately 150,000 hours flying without in-flight airframe failure, even though many of the aircraft have relatively poor workmanship."

  

 Has the 601XL fleet approached 150,000 hours?

 

 If I designed a plane that someone said broke-up in flight I would personally go inspect it.  If I decided against going the first time, thinking it was a fluke, I would certainly go look at the second, or third, if such occured.  I admire Heintz's engineering ability but I find him irresponsible here.  Computers and sandbags don't always tell us everything we need to know.

  

 The Heintzs' shouldn't be leaving this up to the FAA to "investigate," they should investigate these aircraft themselves.  Why some of you stick your head in the sand while crapping on others, I do not know.

  

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176033#176033

 

 

 

 

 

 

  [quote][b]

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:56 am Post subject: Really bad news....S

[quote][b]

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

MHerder

Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Fort Worth TX

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:17 am Post subject: Re: Really bad news....S

Matt/Iberplanes,



Your premise for such an argument is that Chris/Other Heintz's have not done such things.  It is a bold statement to say that the Heintz's have not personally inspected the wreckage. I would agree that it would be irresponsible not to do so, however I believe that this has occurred.  Can anyone truthfully say with certainty that Chris or other Heintz's have not put their hands on the wreckage? Maybe I have taken for granted that this has happened.  As I understand the process a representative of  the manufacturer/designer almost HAS to be there during certain stages of the investigation to provide information, calculations etc.  Maybe I have also taken this for granted, I would welcome a comment from anyone more familiar with the investigation.  



I know that we have at least one member who "plays an investigator on line" and another who at least stayed at a holiday inn.

[quote="Iberplanes"]Dear Matt. 



I was about to write the same you did. Of course Zenith is not Boeing, but when a plane crashes in the USA they might have the chance to go there and check on site. 100 % with your comment, 



Take care, 

 

Alberto Martin 

www.iberplanes.es

Igualada - Barcelona - Spain.



2008/4/11, Matt Ronics <e_jocular>:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Matt Ronics" <e_jocular>

 

 Some of you people seem to be happily willing to go down in a 601XL just to spite everyone else.

  

 Chris Heintz et al need to go an personally inspect these airframes.  Burt Rutan flew out and inspected a Varieze that crashed on account of a structural failure.  As it turns out, the builder didn't follow the plans.  Read for yourself here:

  

 http://www.ez.org/cp33-5.htm

 

 Note the sentence: "Prior to this accident the VariEze type had amassed approximately 150,000 hours flying without in-flight airframe failure, even though many of the aircraft have relatively poor workmanship."

  

 Has the 601XL fleet approached 150,000 hours?

 

 If I designed a plane that someone said broke-up in flight I would personally go inspect it.  If I decided against going the first time, thinking it was a fluke, I would certainly go look at the second, or third, if such occured.  I admire Heintz's engineering ability but I find him irresponsible here.  Computers and sandbags don't always tell us everything we need to know.

  

 The Heintzs' shouldn't be leaving this up to the FAA to "investigate," they should investigate these aircraft themselves.  Why some of you stick your head in the sand while crapping on others, I do not know.

  

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176033#176033

 

 

 

 

 

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

_________________
Zodiac 601 HD
Jabiru 3300
Wood Sensinich 64x47
Finally Flying

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:48 am Post subject: How about a separate Zenith 601 List?

 	  Quote: 	
		  I bid the list adieu. 



I finished my 701 and it is flying successfully. 

--------

Tommy Walker

	


We all suffer when good people with proven track records leave the list.



Given the number of posts we can see on the Zenith board (versus the number of posts on any of the others) doesn't it makes sense to split the 601 off onto it's own?



For example - why does the RV-12 rate a separate list, but the 601 does not...?  



Not meaning to pick on another companies airplane, but really guys, how many RV-12's are even under construction, let alone are actually in the air?  One?  Maybe Two?



Patrick

XL/Corvair - 67%

N63PZ (reserved)

321PT

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 40
Location: Texas

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: Really bad news....S

Been reading this non-productive tripe for too long.  This list has gone from productive to speculation and pissing matches.  I have better things to do.  I have a flying 701 that I absolutely love to fly.  Too bad a 701 list does not exist.  

 See ya....

  [quote][b]

bobefx(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:10 am Post subject: Really bad news....S

This list has been a disappointment to say the least. I joined to get help in building my 601 and all we get is speculation about crashed planes and egos. I want help with building. Real help, from people who have been there, solved the problems, found the best way to accomplish the job and move on. Egos do not belong on this type of forum. 

 If the talk goes back to building I will stay, otherwise I am gone with a lot of others.

  

 Bob Sturgis

 601 XL QB 3300A  75%

 N642Z reserved

 ---

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:38 am Post subject: Really bad news....S

one of the heintzs was at the crash site all afternoon with the FAA.  Everyone needs to cool their Jets for a while.  keep building, keep having fun.  Since it is SLAS there will be a full NTSB report.  the wings were still on the plane.



Juan



--

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: Really bad news....S

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 07:08:19AM -0700, Bob Sturgis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   This list has been a disappointment to say the least. I joined to get help

 in building my 601 and all we get is speculation about crashed planes and

 egos. I want help with building. Real help, from people who have been

 there, solved the problems, found the best way to accomplish the job and

 move on. Egos do not belong on this type of forum.

 If the talk goes back to building I will stay, otherwise I am gone with a

 lot of others.


	


I'm sorry to hear that, and especially if I've helped contribute to the

issue.



I joined the list because, in a couple of months, I'll have my very own

Zodiac, and want to know as much as I possibly can about it. Unlike just

about everyone else here, I don't have anything approaching the kind of time

to be able to build my own, and I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford to

trade money for time. I'm still interested to hear what people who are

building have to say, because that can only increase my store of knowledge

about the aircraft.



Perhaps the answer isn't to split into 601 and 701/801 lists, but rather

into building and flying lists. That way, the builders can concentrate on

that aspect of it, and those who are flying theirs can concentrate on that.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

jreekree

Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 5
Location: Dahlonega, GA

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Really bad news....S

This is my first post to the Zenith list.  I'm on the RV8 list. 

I've been reading the speculation and just plain wrong stuff about Bob's accident as well as the thoughtful replies of "let's wait and see".  Stuff like why would anybody change the N-Numbers to "I know this to be true because I heard it from the Zenith booth"

Bob was my hangar mate and friend.  As had been stated he was meticulous to the enth degree.  He researched his plane and engine more that anyone I've been associated with in my 40 years and 24000 hours of flying.  He wanted to know it all about his plane and aviation.  He went over every square inch of his plane.  He told me about trouble he had heard of with the wings.  He researched service bulletins and engine AD's.  He was quickly becoming a guru on the engine.

I was flying with him to sun-n-fun the day of the accident.  We stopped and fueled up 60 miles north of KLAL.  He loaded his plane carefully and knew what it weighed.  He had flow well over a hundred hours in it since he bought it in October. (NOT 2 months ago)

I spoke with the NTSB the day after the crash and they wanted to know about any MTC he may have performed, specifically if he had removed the wings or done any MTC on them.  I guaranteed them he had not.

I won't speculate on the cause.  Leave that to the NTSB.  They will do their job and ours is not to fuel the fire with rumors and innuendo's.

I do know however that Bob was a good and conscientious pilot that did everything possible to maintain and keep him and his plane safe.  

I write this to try to get people to let the investigation run it's course and not jump to conclusions about either the plane or the pilot.

Fly safe.

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