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Got your attention

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kitfox(at)ida.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject: Got your attention

We need to slow it down again. What are the new  people watching the list waiting to buy thinking. Moderators are not all  knowing. The only ones that know it all are sitting at home talking about it. It  is hard enough to get started with a kit let alone being intimidated by know it  all people. Yes there are people that know a lot of info. That info is not  etched in stone. That is why the group is here ( I hope ) to keep learning and  helping. Even the future builders and current builders can teach us all. New  Eyes. That is how I look at it. So let us reasure our furture builders it is all  ok. Let our current builders know it is all ok. Moderators, be careful how you  do things. Aviator attitude is what took me 30 years to even think about  learning how to fly, they have an arogant attitude. There are kits out there to  be finished. Lets get those done and get more started.

 PS (I still need a motor)

 Albert Smith

 MudLake, Idaho

 5TD, NSIT, CAP

   [quote][b]

Beemer

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Middle Georgia

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Got your attention

I have to chime in here...this is precisely why I quit posting here, and rarely ever lurk anymore on this list. If you don't recall, I'm the one flying the Geo metro conversion on my model 2, which is doing fine, BTW. Much better than the Rotax it replaced.



I'm only back (for a short while) because I bought a new Model 3, and am looking to answer a couple questions.



I'm not impressed with the "Old Guard" here, and feel they need to be replaced, or at least back down from posting their "gospel" as law. That being said, forums like this one have a place in our world, and are a fantastic resource for those, like me, who don't have twenty Kitfox's nearby to research.



I've taken my toys and gone home, and I intend to stay there, for now anyway.



Bradley

_________________
Beemer
KF2 (and now an M3!)
Suzuki G10 three-banger
Middle Georgia

57_kid

Joined: 27 Aug 2006
Posts: 50

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: Got your attention

looks like someone needs a hug  but I hear what you are saying.

--

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Got your attention

 	  Quote: 	
		  I'm not impressed with the "Old Guard" here, and feel they need to be replaced, or at least back down from posting their "gospel" as law. That being said, forums like this one have a place in our world, and are a fantastic resource for those, like me, who don't have twenty Kitfox's nearby to research. 

	


Bradley, Great to see you back.  WHat kind of performance are you getting on your GEO now  compared to the 582 ? 

Dave 



(old and crusty, but not a old guard )

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Beemer

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Middle Georgia

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:12 am Post subject: Re: Got your attention

From what I remember from the 582, it's about the same performance (as expected). But it's a four-stroke, lasts longer, and uses about 1/2 the fuel of the 582. I like it, and it's what I intended it to be.



Bradley

_________________
Beemer
KF2 (and now an M3!)
Suzuki G10 three-banger
Middle Georgia

dpremgood(at)aim.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:01 am Post subject: Got your attention

Bradley,



Could you please give us more information on your GEO installation? IE 

the conversion itself, costs, challenges etc. I am certainly interested 

in hearing about it.



Doug Remoundos

Classic IV

Montreal



--

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:53 am Post subject: Got your attention

I'll second that!  I would like to hear agout the engine also.  Thanks,  Jim Chuk

[quote] To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Got your attention

 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 08:58:03 -0400

 From: dpremgood(at)aim.com

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: dpremgood(at)aim.com

 Bradley,

 Could you please give us more information on your GEO installation? IE 

 the conversion itself, costs, challenges etc. I am certainly interested 

 in hearing about it.

 Doug Remoundos

 Classic IV

 Montreal

 --

Beemer

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Middle Georgia

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Got your attention

Folks,

I have a paper I wrote extolling the virtues of the Geo, but it is not appropriate for posting to this forum. Besides, it's very one-sided and opinionated, albeit absolutely truthful. It'd make someone upset.



Suffice it to say, the Geo is an excellent alternative to the 582. I don't believe Model 4 flyers will do much better than the 912, but a Turbo G13 four-cylinder would certainly work if you want it to.



Some facts about the Geo install - initially it will nickel and dime you to death. Mainly because I bought 50 things before I found one that worked well. I'd love to put together a Kitfox install kit, but there just isn't enough interest for that. After the initial installation, it will cost you next to nothing. Case in point: I just bought a third engine core locally for $100. A complete rebuild kit (new parts only) costs $300. Machining and inspection will run another $100-$300. Add a good 5-angle valve job, a performance cam, SS valves, and a crank scraper, and you're out another $400 (but get 70hp from it). Do a mild porting job at home, put it together yourself, shell out $2K- $3K for the reduction drive (or adapt a Rotax E-box!) and you're in business. 4gph on takeoff, 2gph in cruise. My M2 climbs out and cruises at 582 numbers. The 3 cylinder vibrates just as much at cruise, but start and shut-down are much better. I hear the 4 cylinder G13 is smooth as glass, but it's too long for my M2 without cowl re-work. It's got 20 more hp, tho'.



In all fairness, now the bad: You won't get insurance. You wont get your money back out of it if you sell. It will weigh 50-70lbs more than the 582 (albeit the all-up flying weight will be the same). Your battery will have to go to the tail (meaning cover job and paint). From my experience, local talent at machining these is nowhere to be found. Be prepared to ride your machinist's A$$ all the way, as this ain't your dad's Chevy, and Chevy clearances won't work.



If you're not comfortable flying 1000hrs on one (even though it'll do it easily), then buy a second core and build it up as a spare for $800, and pickle it. Change motors at every annual (I can drop mine, and re-install in 2 hours), and keep a waiting spare. Like I said, once the initial expense is done, you're flying on the cheap from there on out.



I hope to have a web site explaining more, but I'm horrible at it, and time is better spent flying, ya' know? Meanwhile I'll invite you to join the Yahoo Geo list (lists, as there's two), and lurk around for more info. Feel free to ask questions. Most guys are very helpful over there with information.



Also, feel free to email me directly, I'll be as helpful as I can. Remember the Kitfox forum isn't really the proper place to discuss alternative engines (I'm ok with that).



Bradley

_________________
Beemer
KF2 (and now an M3!)
Suzuki G10 three-banger
Middle Georgia

shinco(at)bright.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:36 pm Post subject: Got your attention

Beemer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Folks,

 I have a paper I wrote extolling the virtues of the Geo, but it is not appropriate for posting to this forum. Besides, it's very one-sided and opinionated, albeit absolutely truthful. It'd make someone upset.



 Suffice it to say, the Geo is an excellent alternative to the 582. I don't believe Model 4 flyers will do much better than the 912, but a Turbo G13 four-cylinder would certainly work if you want it to.



 Some facts about the Geo install - initially it will nickel and dime you to death. Mainly because I bought 50 things before I found one that worked well. I'd love to put together a Kitfox install kit, but there just isn't enough interest for that. After the initial installation, it will cost you next to nothing. Case in point: I just bought a third engine core locally for $100. A complete rebuild kit (new parts only) costs $300. Machining and inspection will run another $100-$300. Add a good 5-angle valve job, a performance cam, SS valves, and a crank scraper, and you're out another $400 (but get 70hp from it). Do a mild porting job at home, put it together yourself, shell out $2K- $3K for the reduction drive (or adapt a Rotax E-box!) and you're in business. 4gph on takeoff, 2gph in cruise. My M2 climbs out and cruises at 582 numbers. The 3 cylinder vibrates just as much at cruise, but start and shut-down are much better. I hear the 4 cylinder G13 is smooth as glass, but it'!

  s too long for my M2 without cowl re-work. It's got 20 more hp, tho'.



 In all fairness, now the bad: You won't get insurance. You wont get your money back out of it if you sell. It will weigh 50-70lbs more than the 582 (albeit the all-up flying weight will be the same). Your battery will have to go to the tail (meaning cover job and paint). From my experience, local talent at machining these is nowhere to be found. Be prepared to ride your machinist's A$$ all the way, as this ain't your dad's Chevy, and Chevy clearances won't work.



 If you're not comfortable flying 1000hrs on one (even though it'll do it easily), then buy a second core and build it up as a spare for $800, and pickle it. Change motors at every annual (I can drop mine, and re-install in 2 hours), and keep a waiting spare. Like I said, once the initial expense is done, you're flying on the cheap from there on out.



 I hope to have a web site explaining more, but I'm horrible at it, and time is better spent flying, ya' know? Meanwhile I'll invite you to join the Yahoo Geo list (lists, as there's two), and lurk around for more info. Feel free to ask questions. Most guys are very helpful over there with information.



 Also, feel free to email me directly, I'll be as helpful as I can. Remember the Kitfox forum isn't really the proper place to discuss alternative engines (I'm ok with that).



 Bradley



 --------

 Beemer

 KF2





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177021#177021





   

But beemer ,we are all ways interested in different engine set ups..my 
	


hat goes off to you..your engine sounds very interesting..Thanks for the 

input..STEVE SHINABERY N554KF..KF2   with a little mighty 582

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: Got your attention

Beemer;  

   

I'd be interested in having a squint at your installation...  Can you post a few pics?  

   

[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C89F4F.4D76E750[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

   

   

   

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