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RV Safety Record
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mike109g6(at)insideconnec
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:03 pm Post subject: RV Safety Record

I have to go along with Jake on this one.  I  seem to remember somewhere that some documents written by some pretty smart guys  maintained that certain rights, like life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness  were guaranteed to all people, not a privileged few.  Pretty wide brush  stroke that last one is, and for good reason.  And in another document  these same guys clearly stated that government was by the people, for the  people.  I know that in today's political climate certain privileged few  would have you believe that times have changed and that these antiquated  documents are exactly that.  That government is here to tell you how you  are to live or pay the penalty, because They know better than you.   

 Excuse me but I didn't fight in two wars to be told  what MY rights are, and that I ought to be thankful for the privilege of being  allowed to fly a plane, drive a car, send my kids to a safe school or pay more  taxes.  Your Rights are endless-until you turn them over to the  government-that's when you start using the term privilege.

 Keep your head down Jake, come home  safe,

 Mike H

 [quote]   ---

Dale Ensing

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 571
Location: Aero Plantation Weddington NC

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:29 am Post subject: RV Safety Record

Thank you Mike! Was thinking about how to say what  you said when I read your post. You said it very well. Especially "Your Rights  are endless-until you turn them over to the government-that's when you start  using the term privilege."

 Dale Ensing

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Dale Ensing
RV-6A
Aero Plantation
Weddington NC

tcervin(at)embarqmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: RV Safety Record

Jake, Unfortunately some people in this great country must assume they live under a form of socialism. As you are obviously aware we live in a Republic which requires a great deal of individual responsibility. 

       Socialism relies on the government to guide them in most aspects of their lives. Thank God this is a Republic. 

  I have been on this form for 9 years and this will be my last post. RV building and technical discussions have been replaced by people more interested in determining how the government should run our lives. 

 By the way Jake if you are serving our country in Baghdad..."Thanks for your service!!" 

          Do Not Archive                               Tom in Ohio (RV6-A) 

  

  

 taken over by  standing   ---

Bob Perkinson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 51
Location: Hendersonville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: RV Safety Record

Carl

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 44
Location: Aiken, SC

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: RV Safety Record

Amen, but most folks these days are willing to give them away for some mysterious reason I can’t seem to find in Wikipedia.  Oh well back to school for me, I guess need help.    

         

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of mike humphrey

 Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 2:58 AM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RV Safety Record  

  

     

I have to go along with Jake on this one.  I seem to remember somewhere that some documents written by some pretty smart guys maintained that certain rights, like life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness were guaranteed to all people, not a privileged few.  Pretty wide brush stroke that last one is, and for good reason.  And in another document these same guys clearly stated that government was by the people, for the people.  I know that in today's political climate certain privileged few would have you believe that times have changed and that these antiquated documents are exactly that.  That government is here to tell you how you are to live or pay the penalty, because They know better than you.    

    

Excuse me but I didn't fight in two wars to be told what MY rights are, and that I ought to be thankful for the privilege of being allowed to fly a plane, drive a car, send my kids to a safe school or pay more taxes.  Your Rights are endless-until you turn them over to the government-that's when you start using the term privilege.  

    

Keep your head down Jake, come home safe,  

    

Mike H  

  [quote]    

---

_________________
Carl Bell
Building N947CB
RV 7A

jan(at)claver.demon.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:20 am Post subject: RV Safety Record

Hi Tom & Cathy,  

   

Hope you are doing well !! I am still working on my RV6 … wings now…. Oh so slow  …. Doing it the “hard way” …  

   

I think the RV range is now “so easy to build” that the need for a “builders help list” like this is greatly reduced ……  

   

Take care … and happy flying !!  

   

Jan  

         

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom & Cathy Ervin

 Sent: 12 April 2008 15:06

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: RV Safety Record  

  

   

Jake, Unfortunately some people in this great country must assume they live under a form of socialism. As you are obviously aware we live in a Republic which requires a great deal of individual responsibility.  

       Socialism relies on the government to guide them in most aspects of their lives. Thank God this is a Republic.  

  I have been on this form for 9 years and this will be my last post. RV building and technical discussions have been replaced by people more interested in determining how the government should run our lives.  

 By the way Jake if you are serving our country in Baghdad..."Thanks for your service!!"  

          Do Not Archive                               Tom in Ohio (RV6-A)  

   

   

 taken over by  standing   ---

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: RV Safety Record

John W. Cox wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Like Clint Eastwood said..."A man has to know his limitations".



I evaluate every aircraft I fly in and many that I would not let any

family members fly, I still climb in.



Why is that?  Are you more expendable than they are???
	




 	  Quote: 	
		    Others I won't ever fly in but

will assist on Conditional Inspections. Many, the builder had little

idea of how to do things correctly but blindly followed someone else's

instructions.



Amen to that.  Or maybe they didn't get ANY guidance.  A local builder 
	


produced an assembled 'ready to fly' RV-4 that was devoid of any  

positive workmanship.  None of the local DARs would sign it off, but he 

got an FAA inspection and passed.  I find that sad.  Had any of us known 

that he was building it, we would have helped, but no one knew.



 	  Quote: 	
		    We would all be safer if we flew often, flew with a

professional observer to hone our skills more frequently and maintained

our aircraft to the safest possible standards.



Absolutely!   There'd be less mourning and lower insurance premiums .... 
	


and a lot more experienced old codgers to help the younger ones along!



 	  Quote: 	
		  I have seen some atrocious fiberglass work on components of the RV-10

that are a professional embarrassment and yet scores of novice builders

will buy them and use them without regard.  I have seen many plastic

aircraft which exceed the quality of even production certificated

aircraft and push the quality of GA higher and can make most builders

proud.



Everything is out there.  Stay Safe, we lost another RV-10 last night

with two soles aboard.  "Education... now there is something every man

should strive to continue."



I had a teacher that once told me that if you go to sleep at night 
	


without learning something that day .... the day was wasted.

Sage advice indeed.

Linn

do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
		  

John Cox

Do not Archive

gmcjetpilot

Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 170

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:48 pm Post subject: RV Safety Record

I spent hours and hours searching the NTSB files. Mostly to see what makes a Lycs stop running verses alternative engines stop running. That is a diff topic, but to the point, are home built planes (experimental) safe?

   

  AOPA does put out an analysis of the years accidents. THE TRUTH! Forget opinion and feelings as a group all experimentals aircraft have a slightly worse record (normalized for fleet size) than the general fleet. Not bad just not quite as good as the general fleet.

    

  Why? Well you really need to spend hours looking at every experimental accident and read them. Like my quest for engine failure info, I learned you have to read them. It's almost impossible to boil it down to just a number with out some understanding.

   

  I agree many accidents are preventable. In fact if you maintain your plane, don't run out of gas, stay current and don't fly into bad weather, your chance of accident (at least the ones that make up many in the statistics) goes down. I don't  plan on doing any of the things that cause most accidents.

   

  However the HOT sporty homebuilt does have a tendency or lend it self to higher risk flying, acro, high speed buzz jobs and formation flying. Yes ACRO and formation flying his less tolerance to mistakes and errors. They can be done safely, but these Ops have higher risk. If you don't think about the risk, try to mitigate the risk for these kinds of operations you should not do them or you will be a statistics.This applies to every day flying as well.

    

  There is nothing inherently dangerous about homebuilts but some homebuilts, like Lancair IV's with higher wing loading and stall speeds of a WWII fighter take more disciplined, flying by the numbers. Also an engine failure is more likely going to hurt due to the higher stall speed and the kind of material the airframe is made from. RV's are fairly safe due to the low stall speed and metal structure that absorbs energy. However the RV is not an over built "Bush" airframe with a steel truss tube frame either. Having a buble canopy, flips can cause egress issues.

    

  RV takes displine and its not a low speed trainer with IRON WORKS landing gear for ham handed flying. If flown properly its as safe (safer in my opinion) than any GA plane. Of course the engine and airframe need to be maintained properly.

   

  Bottom line of course home built planes are safe, but the real factor is inbetween our ears.



         Be a better friend, newshound, and   [quote][b]

jsflyrv(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:43 pm Post subject: RV Safety record

Just curious if anyone received this pdf file I posted a while back to 

the list from Ron Wanttaja?

All the talk of RV safety and not one comment on his research comparing 

RV's to other homebuilt

safety.  Maybe pdf files do not come through or maybe no one can open it.

Let me know.

Jerry Springer

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:24:42 -0700, Jerry Springer wrote



 	  Quote: 	
		  > Can can I post this on the RV-List?

> There is a discussion going on there about how to make the RV flying

> community safer and how to compare RV accidents to the rest of the 

> homebuilt accident rates. Someone ask how to break the RVs apart from 

> the rest of the homebuilt accident statistics. I would like to point people

> to your article or maybe you could help us out some way with RV accident

> statistics. 



  > Jerry
	


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I give talks to the local EAA chapters that go further than the articles.

Attached is a page from my presentation where I discuss RV accident causes and

compare them to the overall statistics.  The data is based on accidents from

1998 through 2004, inclusive.



"General Pilot Error" is basically mistakes in the stick-and-rudder skills;

"SALA" stands for "Stupidity at Low Altitude," buzzing, flying up box canyons,

etc.  In my presentations, I use a red star to call attention to interesting

results, such as the RV's higher rate in what I call 'cross-country' accidents.



The lower rate of pilot error accidents may well be due to the higher general

experience level of RV pilots, as shown by the median pilot hours.



During the subject period the annual fleet accident rate for all homebuilts was

about 0.94% (e.g., almost one out of every 100 homebuilts crashes in a given

year) and the RV fleet accident rate was almost identical (0.90%).  In contrast,

the Glasair rate was 1.11%,   The overall rate for all N-numbered aircraft was

0.63%, so homebuilts have a rate about 50% higher than the overall fleet.



I'm currently adding 2005 and 2006 data to my database, and will be updating the

graphs accordingly.   Don't expect them to change too much, but you never

know....



Ron

RV_Stats-1.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

RV_Stats-1.pdf

Filesize:

107.08 KB

Downloaded:

310 Time(s)

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:38 am Post subject: RV Safety record

I got it both times ..... and it's really interesting .  RVs have more 

entries in one half of the categories (6 out of 12) and RVs have none in 

the maintenance categories!!!!   However, the accident rate for stupid 

pilot tricks is far too high, no matter what we fly.  We really need to 

do better.

Linn

Jerry Springer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Just curious if anyone received this pdf file I posted a while back to 

 the list from Ron Wanttaja?

 All the talk of RV safety and not one comment on his research 

 comparing RV's to other homebuilt

 safety.  Maybe pdf files do not come through or maybe no one can open it.

 Let me know.

 Jerry Springer

 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:24:42 -0700, Jerry Springer wrote

>> Can can I post this on the RV-List?

>> There is a discussion going on there about how to make the RV flying

>> community safer and how to compare RV accidents to the rest of the 

>> homebuilt accident rates. Someone ask how to break the RVs apart 

>> from the rest of the homebuilt accident statistics. I would like to 

>> point people

>> to your article or maybe you could help us out some way with RV 

>> accident

>> statistics. 

  > Jerry

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

 I give talks to the local EAA chapters that go further than the articles.

 Attached is a page from my presentation where I discuss RV accident 

 causes and

 compare them to the overall statistics.  The data is based on 

 accidents from

 1998 through 2004, inclusive.

 "General Pilot Error" is basically mistakes in the stick-and-rudder 

 skills;

 "SALA" stands for "Stupidity at Low Altitude," buzzing, flying up box 

 canyons,

 etc.  In my presentations, I use a red star to call attention to 

 interesting

 results, such as the RV's higher rate in what I call 'cross-country' 

 accidents.

 The lower rate of pilot error accidents may well be due to the higher 

 general

 experience level of RV pilots, as shown by the median pilot hours.

 During the subject period the annual fleet accident rate for all 

 homebuilts was

 about 0.94% (e.g., almost one out of every 100 homebuilts crashes in a 

 given

 year) and the RV fleet accident rate was almost identical (0.90%).  In 

 contrast,

 the Glasair rate was 1.11%,   The overall rate for all N-numbered 

 aircraft was

 0.63%, so homebuilts have a rate about 50% higher than the overall fleet.

 I'm currently adding 2005 and 2006 data to my database, and will be 

 updating the

 graphs accordingly.   Don't expect them to change too much, but you never

 know....

 Ron

Dick Sipp

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Hope, MI

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: RV Safety record

Got it Jerry, it prompted a couple of emails with Ron.  The cause data is 

interesting and useful but we also need our accident rate per 100,000 hours 

flown to compare with other groups.  This rate is hard to come with as it 

requires an estimate of how much the average RV flys per year.  Ron is doing 

good work on this and has more articles coiming.



Dick Sipp

RV10 N110DV

---

lm4(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: RV Safety record

Jerry,

        I received it and filed it in my safety folder.

Larry Mac Donald

lm4(at)juno.com

Rochester N.Y.

Do not archive

 

 

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:39:15 -0700 Jerry Springer <jsflyrv(at)verizon.net>

writes:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Just curious if anyone received this pdf file I posted a while back 

 to the list from Ron Wanttaja? All the talk of RV safety and not one

comment on his research comparing RV's to other homebuiltsafety.  
	


Maybe pdf files do not come through or maybe no one can open it.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Let me know.

 Jerry Springer

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