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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:18 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol removal?

Here is a article that I did find on ethanol, it is positive and certainly tells you a bit about the gasoline, ethanol and how it works in auto engines. 



Dave 

Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada 

Flying Videos and Kitfox Info 

http://www.cfisher.com



Like i continually say -- I have used thousands of gallons in my Kitfox gas, ethanol gas or what ever they sell me as regular gas and so far I have had ZERO issues.   IF you have had issues  with ethanol Let's hear about it , if not we seem  to be beating a dead horse here? 



There's been a lot of questions about the use of ethanol blended fuels in the last couple of years and I have done some research into it. Here in Minnesota 10% ethanol has been mandatory for over two years and I have not seen any adverse problems to car engines due to it's use.



   First of all, what is ethanol? Fuel ethanol (or 'Gasohol') is a high octane, water-free alcohol produced from the fermentation of sugar or converted starch. It is traditionally used as a blending ingredient at 5% to 10% concentrations (termed E5 or E10, respectively) in gasoline or as a raw material to produce high octane fuel ether additives. Ethanol is made primarily from grains or other renewable agricultural and agroforestry feedstocks.



   Ethanol has been made since ancient times by the fermentation of sugars. All beverage ethanol and more than half of industrial ethanol is still made by this process. Simple sugars are the raw material. Zymase, an enzyme from yeast, changes the simple sugars into ethanol and carbon dioxide. If you use hops instead of corn, you get beer instead of fuel.



   The use of ethanol does provide some benefits. First of all it is renewable. The problem with crude oil is when it's gone, it's gone. No more, finished, kaput, finis. 1 acre corn = 300 gallons of Ethanol and 400 gallons of unneeded oil imports. Ethanol is made from corn and other grown grains and when was the last time you saw a year where there wasn't any corn around? Since it contains a high amount of oxygen it makes a car engine cleaner burning resulting in a cleaner environment for us to live in. Carbon dioxide emissions are lower thus reducing ground level ozone which people with respiratory problems will be the first to tell you is a problem.



   The emissions produced by burning ethanol are less reactive with sunlight than those produced by burning gasoline. This results in a lower potential for damaging the ozone layer. The use of ethanol reduces our dependance on imported oil and increases the market for farmers who grow the grains we use to produce ethanol. Now we can stop paying farmers not grow crops and use their excess production as fuel.



   Of course there are some by-products of ethanol production that have to be dealt with. By-products such as corn flour, corn oil, corn meal and corn grits. Other by-products are animal feeds such as Fibrotein TM, corn gluten meal and feed and certain amino acids. Carbon dioxide is another by-product in ethanol production and is used as a refrigerant and putting the fizz in our sodas. There are no waste products when ethanol is produced from corn.



   It is possible, with certain engine modifications, to run on pure ethanol. Brazil operates almost 50% of their vehicles on pure ethanol. A 10% blend requires no engine modifications at all. There is a very limited selection of vehicles offered by original equipment manufacturers that will run on 85% ethanol blended fuel.



   Car owners are concerned about what effects ethanol will have on their engines and fuel systems, a valid concern. Let me take this a step at a time.



Ethanol As A Fuel



New car warranties.

Ethanol began being used in 1979 and auto manufactures did not address the use of ethanol blended fuels. Then when they began testing their vehicles with the new blended fuels, they were able to approve the use of the 10% ethanol blended fuels. Some went as far as to recommend the new blended fuels in their vehicles.

Do I have to do anything to my engine to use a 10% ethanol fuel?

All engines built from 1970 can use the 10% ethanol blended fuels with no problems or modifications. A carbureted engine may need an adjustment to take full advantage of the fuel.

Will the new fuels work in a fuel injected engine?

It sure will. At first you may need to change the fuel filter more often as the ethanol cleans out the fuel system, but once that is done fuel filter replacement will go back to normal. 



Ethanol can loosen contaminants and residues that have been deposited by previous gasoline fills. These can collect in the fuel filter. This problem has happened occasionally in older cars, and can easily be corrected by changing fuel filters. Since 1985 all ethanol blended fuels and most non-blended fuels have had detergents added to them to keep fuel injectors clean and prevent deposits that could clog them.

Will adding a gas line anti-freeze cause problems?

Gas line anti-freezes are made from ethanol, methanol or isopropyl alcohol to absorb water in the fuel and keep it from freezing. That one little bottle of gas line anti-freeze is about 0.3% of the volume of a full gas tank. With a 10% ethanol blended fuel, it's 10% so it will absorb a lot more water and you'll never have to worry about a frozen fuel line. Now you don't have to worry about buying it, keeping it in the trunk and adding it to the tank when you fill up.

What about my valves?

Not to worry, ethanol burns cooler than straight gasoline helping to keep the valves cool. This is the main reason that high powered racing engines burn straight alcohol.

Will ethanol hurt my older engine designed for leaded gas?

No. The concern about older engines came about because of the lead phase-out. Lead oxides that were formed during combustion provided a cushion that reduced wear on non-case-hardened valve seats. Therefore, it is the absence of lead, not the presence of ethanol, that is of concern.

Why do some mechanics say not to use ethanol?

A mechanic who says not to use ethanol does not have correct information. There is very little information available for mechanics on fuel formulation, so when there appears to be a fuel-related problem with an engine, some mechanics will immediately ask if ethanol has been used. The only reason ethanol is suspected is that in many states it is the only gasoline component other than lead that has an identifying label. In North Dakota, New Mexico, and Idaho, ethanol proponents have offered a $100 reward to any customer who can document damage from ethanol to his or her car, and so far no one has ever collected.

Okay, what about my gas milage?

At the very worst it will be very slight. Ethanol contains 97% of the energy that pure gasoline has. But because the combustion efficiency is increased, the slight reduction in energy content is compensated for. Most users will not notice the decrease, if any, and many people have reported an increase in fuel milage.

Can I use it in my lawn mower?

No, you'll have to stop mowing the lawn every week. Only kidding, I thought I saw a few people smile at that prospect. The answer is yes, you can use the 10% ethanol blended fuels anywhere you use regular unleaded fuel. It can be used in any lawn mower, snow plow, snowmobile, ATV and any other gas powered engine. There may be some carburetor adjustment needed, so always refer to your equipments owners manual before using it.

Can I use it in diesel engine?

No, Diesel fuel and ethanol don't mix. Besides which gasoline is an octane fuel while diesel fuel is a cetain fuel.



   Ethanol is a very safe fuel, if you spill it it will not contaminate the ground water. If you drink it, you'll get drunk. Although if you drink large quantities you will suffer liver damage. In fact, if you drink just about any alcoholic beverage, you're drinking ethanol in one form or another. I was hard pressed to find any down sides to the use of ethanol as a fuel. There are reports that the emissions of an ethanol burning engine can adversely effect plant life, but studies are still being conducted to prove or disprove this.



   Copyright Â© 2000 - 2003 Vincent T. Ciulla All Rights Reserved

_________________
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Last edited by dave on Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:21 am; edited 1 time in total

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:15 am Post subject: Ethanol removal?

I'm waiting for someone to come up with a treatment to remove the lead from 100LL.  Using TCP may help with a four stroke but does nothing to prevent lead plating on the main bearings of a two stroke.  

   

If I could afford it I'd install a Diesel.  They say the Smart (C) three cylinder turbo diesel can be chipped to produce 65 reliable horsepower at around the same weight as a 912.  There are other auto Diesels in Europe that are around the 80 hp neighbourhood.  

   

Noel  

   

--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

propellerdesign(at)tele2.
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 6:01 am Post subject: Ethanol removal?

The Coming Gemini 100 diesel 3cyl (6 piston) 75  kg/150Lb looks promising

  

 http://ppdgemini.com/

 http://www.amtonline.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=1&id=4434&pageNum=1

  

 Jan

 [quote]   ---

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:35 am Post subject: Ethanol removal?

Clint,

You are very fortunate. Its not the mil spec hoses you use that save 

the bacon, but that you buy your auto fuel in a region that does not 

use the additives that eat/dissolve the mil spec hoses. And if you 

travel across the country you are bound to get the undesirable fuel. 

But then a small amount of the bad stuff  probably is not a big deal. 

It the continuous wetting of the hoses that is an issue. I did a test 

with the mil hoses that came with the kit by submerging samples in 

the local fuel here in n-CO and after 2 years I saw no issues but 

others did the same test with their local fuel and the hoses swelled 

and deteriorated significantly.

Paul

=================

At 09:26 PM 4/12/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  You must be using a different mil spec fuel line then mine.  Just 

put in 2 new shut off valves, fuel line removed you couldn't tell 

from new.  1313 hours



Clint

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: Ethanol removal?

That could very well be the problem.  I only use Chevron High Test fuel if auto gas is used.  Other then that 100 High Lead avation type.  Am going to replace the fuel line next condition inspection, not quite sure what fuel line to use.  Nothing will be any better then what I have been using.  At least up to this point.

 Clint

 ate: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 09:29:23 -0600

 	  Quote: 	
		   To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 From: pwmac(at)sisna.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Ethanol removal?

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: paul wilson <pwmac(at)sisna.com>

 Clint,

 You are very fortunate. Its not the mil spec hoses you use that save 

 the bacon, but that you buy your auto fuel in a region that does not 

 use the additives that eat/dissolve the mil spec hoses. And if you 

 travel across the country you are bound to get the undesirable fuel. 

 But then a small amount of the bad stuff probably is not a big deal. 

 It the continuous wetting of the hoses that is an issue. I did a test 

 with the mil hoses that came with the kit by submerging samples in 

 the local fuel here in n-CO and after 2 years I saw no issues but 

 others did the same test with their local fuel and the hoses swelled 

 and deteriorated significantly.

 Paul

 =================

 At 09:26 PM 4/12/2008, you wrote:

 >You must be using a different mil spec fuel line then mine. Just 

 >put in 2 new shut off valves, fuel line removed you couldn't tell 

 >from new. 1313 hours

 >

 >Clint

======================

 	  Quote: 	
		   ========================> 

  [quote][b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: Ethanol removal?

Line by line discussion coming up!  

   

   First of all, what is ethanol? Fuel ethanol (or 'Gasohol') is a high octane, water-free alcohol produced from the fermentation of sugar or converted starch. It is traditionally used as a blending ingredient at 5% to 10% concentrations (termed E5 or E10, respectively) in gasoline or as a raw material to produce high octane fuel ether additives. Ethanol is made primarily from grains or other renewable agricultural and agroforestry feedstocks.  

   

The octane rating of ethanol is around 116 as for water free only immediately after it has been distilledif it is sealed from moisture in the air which it will absorb like a sponge. It is made form feed stocks that is why the cost of food in the past six months has skyrocketed.  

   

   

   Ethanol has been made since ancient times by the fermentation of sugars. All beverage ethanol and more than half of industrial ethanol is still made by this process. Simple sugars are the raw material. Zymase, an enzyme from yeast, changes the simple sugars into ethanol and carbon dioxide. If you use hops instead of corn, you get beer instead of fuel.  

   

Making a good beer is a bit harder than that...    

   

   

   The use of ethanol does provide some benefits. First of all it is renewable. The problem with crude oil is when it's gone, it's gone. No more, finished, kaput, finis. 1 acre corn = 300 gallons of Ethanol and 400 gallons of unneeded oil imports. Ethanol is made from corn and other grown grains and when was the last time you saw a year where there wasn't any corn around? Since it contains a high amount of oxygen it makes a car engine cleaner burning resulting in a cleaner environment for us to live in. Carbon dioxide emissions are lower thus reducing ground level ozone which people with respiratory problems will be the first to tell you is a problem.  

   

I acre of corn may produce 300 gallons of ethanol but to get that you will use the 400 gallons plus of fossil fuel.  300 gallons of ethanol will only have the BTUs of less than 200 gallons of gas and less than 100 gallons of diesel fuel.  

Yes the car engine does run cleaner but CO2 is still given off in the fermentation process add that to the carbon and benzene derivatives given off when ethanol is burned and then add the exhaust particles fot he fuel used to produce the ethanol and it’s anything but clean.  In fact it’s just about the most filthy poisonous stuff legal to spew around.  The benxe3ne derivatives given off when ethanol burns are far more devastating to the ozone levels , low and high, than the same concentrations of CO2.  

   

   The emissions produced by burning ethanol are less reactive with sunlight than those produced by burning gasoline. This results in a lower potential for damaging the ozone layer. The use of ethanol reduces our dependance on imported oil and increases the market for farmers who grow the grains we use to produce ethanol. Now we can stop paying farmers not grow crops and use their excess production as fuel.  

   

It probably is less reactive with sunlight because it doesn’t need to react with sunlight to eat ozone.  The result is a much higher level of damage to the ozone layers. Because it requires so much fossil fuel to manufacture a gallon of ethanol it actually compounds the oil problem by increasing our dependence on fossil fuel.  

Now we get to the crux of the matter it is a way the government can do cash injections to farmers by increasing the demand, ergo the price of their crops.  I don’t blame them for liking and supporting the idea of ethanol fuel even though they know it’s not true.  Unfortunately it’s not the 4excess production going into ethanol production...  The excess production is now finding its way to our tables.  

   

   Of course there are some by-products of ethanol production that have to be dealt with. By-products such as corn flour, corn oil, corn meal and corn grits. Other by-products are animal feeds such as Fibrotein TM, corn gluten meal and feed and certain amino acids. Carbon dioxide is another by-product in ethanol production and is used as a refrigerant and putting the fizz in our sodas. There are no waste products when ethanol is produced from corn.  

   

Just how much pop can you drink??   A short while ago somebody brought this up to me so I checked it out.  It’s all true!  BUT...  These amino acids they talk about are what most of us call steroids... The same steroids we are trying to avoid in our steaks, the same steroids the producers should have to eat themselves before giving it to unsuspecting farm animals  whose lives are made more painful and shortened.  Natural Corn flour and corn oil are removed in the permantatiuon process leaving what the beer makers call grouts.  

   

I won’t comment on CO2 as a refrigerant.... This is the first time I’ve heard this.  I hope it’s true.  

   

   

   It is possible, with certain engine modifications, to run on pure ethanol. Brazil operates almost 50% of their vehicles on pure ethanol. A 10% blend requires no engine modifications at all. There is a very limited selection of vehicles offered by original equipment manufacturers that will run on 85% ethanol blended fuel.  

   

Brazil produces almost all its ethanol on excess crops...  They still have the problems of the benzene derivatives produced when ethanol is burned..  Given the choice of the table or the tank I’ll bet they put their crops on the table.  

   

   Car owners are concerned about what effects ethanol will have on their engines and fuel systems, a valid concern. Let me take this a step at a time.  

   

Ethanol As A Fuel  

   

New car warranties.  

Ethanol began being used in 1979 and auto manufactures did not address the use of ethanol blended fuels. Then when they began testing their vehicles with the new blended fuels, they were able to approve the use of the 10% ethanol blended fuels. Some went as far as to recommend the new blended fuels in their vehicles.  

   

Problem is when ethanol eats out car components, eventually it will,  the manufacturer make more money replacing the parts.  A good reason to stay as far from ethanol on the ground as possible.  

   

   

Do I have to do anything to my engine to use a 10% ethanol fuel?  

All engines built from 1970 can use the 10% ethanol blended fuels with no problems or modifications. A carbureted engine may need an adjustment to take full advantage of the fuel.  

   

Because there is so much less power in ethanol compared to gasoline the engine will have to be tuned much richer.  The one good point is because ethanol has an RON of 116 your engine probably won’t ping as the fuel eats its gut out.  

   

   

Will the new fuels work in a fuel injected engine?  

It sure will. At first you may need to change the fuel filter more often as the ethanol cleans out the fuel system, but once that is done fuel filter replacement will go back to normal.  

   

Bull feathers !  Once the loose crud is released, because ethanol is so corrosive,  and caught in the filters the rest of the parts that are being corroded will pass right through the filters.  If one has to use ethanol. I mean really, really, has to use ethanol then fuel injection is how it should be done.  In aircraft add a fuel system pressurized with nitrogen to keep the crap from absorbing water out of the air while on the ground.  

   

   

Ethanol can loosen contaminants and residues that have been deposited by previous gasoline fills. These can collect in the fuel filter. This problem has happened occasionally in older cars, and can easily be corrected by changing fuel filters. Since 1985 all ethanol blended fuels and most non-blended fuels have had detergents added to them to keep fuel injectors clean and prevent deposits that could clog them.  

   

After that the ethanol will just start to eat your; fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel lines, FUEL FILTER, injection pump and injectors.  I forgot to mention what it will do to your fuel gauge.  

   

Will adding a gas line anti-freeze cause problems?  

Gas line anti-freezes are made from ethanol, methanol or isopropyl alcohol to absorb water in the fuel and keep it from freezing. That one little bottle of gas line anti-freeze is about 0.3% of the volume of a full gas tank. With a 10% ethanol blended fuel, it's 10% so it will absorb a lot more water and you'll never have to worry about a frozen fuel line. Now you don't have to worry about buying it, keeping it in the trunk and adding it to the tank when you fill up.  

   

So true.  Now all you have to worry about is a phase separation which can occur, especially in humid climes when the temperature drops..  Let’s not talk about what happens to your dirt cheap injector pump an injectors when water gets into them.  Can anyone say pressurized fuel system starting at the distillery.  

   

   

What about my valves?  

Not to worry, ethanol burns cooler than straight gasoline helping to keep the valves cool. This is the main reason that high powered racing engines burn straight alcohol.  

   

Racing authorities mandating/requiring the use of ethanol in an attempt to restrict po9st crash explosions had not a darn thing to do with its use!  That’s my story and I’ll stick to it.  Now you can see people burn in flames you cannot see... Great stuff to have on the highway.  

   

   

Will ethanol hurt my older engine designed for leaded gas?  

No. The concern about older engines came about because of the lead phase-out. Lead oxides that were formed during combustion provided a cushion that reduced wear on non-case-hardened valve seats. Therefore, it is the absence of lead, not the presence of ethanol, that is of concern.  

   

Finally a point I have not one issue with.  

   

   

Why do some mechanics say not to use ethanol?  

A mechanic who says not to use ethanol does not have correct information. There is very little information available for mechanics on fuel formulation, so when there appears to be a fuel-related problem with an engine, some mechanics will immediately ask if ethanol has been used. The only reason ethanol is suspected is that in many states it is the only gasoline component other than lead that has an identifying label. In North Dakota, New Mexico, and Idaho, ethanol proponents have offered a $100 reward to any customer who can document damage from ethanol to his or her car, and so far no one has ever collected.  

   

The mechanic who advises you not to use ethanol is HONEST.  He is smart enough to see the truth regardless of what the spin doctors say.  Ethanol  will have a lot more effect on your car than a daily cigar will have on your health... and we all know cigars are not good for your heath.  No one ever will because the spin doctors will always credit other factors with the damage ethanol does.  I note they don’t address the damage it does to the atmosphere even before its burned.   

   

   

Okay, what about my gas milage?  

At the very worst it will be very slight. Ethanol contains 97% of the energy that pure gasoline has. But because the combustion efficiency is increased, the slight reduction in energy content is compensated for. Most users will not notice the decrease, if any, and many people have reported an increase in fuel milage.  

   

Obviously there is a type-o error here it’s not 97% but closer to 67% ( actually  lower than that) adding 10 % to your perfectly good gas will reduce your mileage, all else equal, around 20%.  I know I’d notice that for sure.  There are two ways I can see a slight mileage decrease;   

Your engine has bee detonating all over the place.. Ethanol because it has a RON of around 116 will actually allow your engine to run smoother and therefore more efficiently possibly increasing fuel mileage until bits and pieces of your engine are consumed.  

Your  name is Jethro Bodine and you ciphering at grade six level has damaged a few brain cells....  

   

   

   

Can I use it in my lawn mower?  

No, you'll have to stop mowing the lawn every week. Only kidding, I thought I saw a few people smile at that prospect. The answer is yes, you can use the 10% ethanol blended fuels anywhere you use regular unleaded fuel. It can be used in any lawn mower, snow plow, snowmobile, ATV and any other gas powered engine. There may be some carburetor adjustment needed, so always refer to your equipments owners manual before using it.  

   

Interesting that the descendants of Monsieur Armand Bombardier allow but do not recommend the use of up to 10% ethanol in any of the equipment they manufacture.  

   

   

Can I use it in diesel engine?  

No, Diesel fuel and ethanol don't mix. Besides which gasoline is an octane fuel while diesel fuel is a cetain fuel.  

   

The whole idea of a Diesel engine is it can be made to run on any fuel.  It can be made to run on wood chips if you want and it most certainly can be made to run on ethanol... up to the point the ethanol eats the engine.  I thought military turbine fuel was kerosene laced with ethanol to make it flow at the cold temps encountered at altitude.  I better look that one up.  

   

   Ethanol is a very safe fuel, if you spill it it will not contaminate the ground water. If you drink it, you'll get drunk. Although if you drink large quantities you will suffer liver damage. In fact, if you drink just about any alcoholic beverage, you're drinking ethanol in one form or another. I was hard pressed to find any down sides to the use of ethanol as a fuel. There are reports that the emissions of an ethanol burning engine can adversely effect plant life, but studies are still being conducted to prove or disprove this.  

   

Ethanol is an organic compound.  I’m not sure if it will contaminate ground water but it will kill just about anything it comes in contact with.  Just try an ounce or so on your wife’s prize rosebush.  Better not, you’ll just be adding to the dangers of ethanol.  As for drinking the stuff that you get from the gas station you can’t even distil the eth out of it.  They have a compound in the ethanol that distils at the same temperature.  That compound will make you very sick.  

   

   Copyright Â© 2000 - 2003 Vincent T. Ciulla All Rights Reserved  

   

I claim no copyright to my opinions and ideas.  The truth actually belongs to all of us.  Please feel free spread it around.  Don’t believe what I’ve said here.  Check it out for yourself.  

   

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. We have a problem with fossil fuels.  Ethanol is NOT the answer... it’s a decoy leading us from finding a real viable answer.  

   

--------  

Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada  

Flying Videos and Kitfox Info  

http://www.cfisher.com/  

   

   

   

   

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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176510#176510  

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

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       [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: Ethanol removal?

Noel,  

I agree with you on ethanol from Corn.  The only justification that I can see is it may help get the infrastructure in place for ethanol from cellulose.  

   

But what I was addressing was the danger of a home operation to remove ethanol from gasoline with water.  I was assuming that you were completely successful in removing the ethanol and the danger that the remaining water presents.  You seem to like the sideways arguments so I will toss one out to you.    

   

Water is much more soluble in gasoline than diesel fuel.  Yet there is a spec for water in diesel fuel.  And it is there for a reason.  

   

Randy  

     

.             

  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys

 Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 1:14 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Ethanol removal?  

  

   

Thanks I have lots of Chemistry books.  Yes there is a minimal dissolving of water in gasoline (PPB).  For all practical purposes, none. Certainly not enough to separate from the gasoline by temperature changes or be the principal cause of carb icing.  If that were true ethanol would be a required ingredient of 100LL.  Funny it’s not.  Funny the accepted method of removing water form 100LL is to drain water drops from the sumps until no droplets can be found or filter the gas through a chamois or felt.  

   

The same is not true for gasoline that has been contaminated with ethanol.  Once contaminated with ethanol the gas can separate from the gas.  This phase separation occurs much easier if there is oil present in the gasoline.  

   

I did however do a quick search for solubility of water into gasoline.  There were several notations of this but they almost all related to the water actually forming a solution with ethanol in the gas.  There is a reference to the addition of salt HCL in the water making it more soluble for gasoline if the concentrations of HCL are correct.    

   

I searched further and found this.  

   

“Gasoline and water do not mix because the non-polar hydrocarbon molecules (water is polar) would disrupt the water in such a way as to produce a structure that was actually lower entropy; therefore, the mixture is less likely to exist than the separate liquids.”  Sounds good but I can’t confirm the reliability of the source.  

   

The idea that gasoline is more conducive to carb icing or water separation over ethanol contaminated gas is lacking in substance.  Just check your chemistry books.  

   

Noel  

   

   

   

-----Original Message-----

 From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh

 Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 3:35 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Ethanol removal?  

   

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Randy  Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh(at)rapidnet.com>  

   

Noel,  

Get your self a chemistry book.  Water dissolves in gasoline up to a certain  

percentage.   Beyond that it separates into two phases.  The small amount of  

water that is dissolved in the gasoline will come out of solution if the  

gasoline is cooled.  If you are in the air while you are cooling your home  

made fuel, you may get an unpleasant surprise.  

   

Similarly, gas dissolves in water.   - But to a lesser degree.  This is why  

a small amount of gasoline can contaminate a very large amount of water.  

   

Gasoline changes all the time.  Some has more benzene than other gas.  Some  

has more toluene or xylenes than others.  The amount of water that is  

soluble in the gas changes with the amount of these and other components of  

gasoline.  

   

Look for some ternary phase diagrams of water, ethanol and octane.  You will  

figure it out.    

   

Randy  

   

.             

   

   

--

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: Ethanol removal?

Line by line discussion coming up!  

   

Quote> Fuel ethanol (or 'Gasohol') is a high octane, water-free alcohol produced from the fermentation of sugar or converted starch.   

   

Answer> The octane rating of ethanol is around 116 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating ).  As for being water free that is true only immediately after it has been distilled and then only if if it is sealed from moisture in the air which it will absorb like a sponge.  

   

   

Quote>    It is traditionally used as a blending ingredient at 5% to 10% concentrations (termed E5 or E10, respectively) in gasoline or as a raw material to produce high octane fuel ether additives.  

   

Answer>   It hasn’t been used in this country long enough to have a traditional use but most jurisdictions where ethanol is being force fed the concentrations are 5 or 10%.  People should be aware that octane rating and power are two completely different things.  In the past high octane gasoline was more volatile than low octane.  This is no longer true as the octane boosters in the fuel (ethanol ) are not as volatile as gas therefore the gas itself is less volatile..  This is why it is used in racing cars.  

   

   

 Quote>   Ethanol is made primarily from grains or other renewable agricultural and agroforestry feedstocks.  

   

Answer>  On this continent ethanol is produced by diverting farm land from fuel production.  This is neither efficient, financially responsible or feasible in the long term.  It is made from feed stocks that is why the cost of food in the past six months has skyrocketed.  You ain’t seen nothing yet!  

   

   

Quote>   Ethanol has been made since ancient times by the fermentation of sugars. All beverage ethanol and more than half of industrial ethanol is still made by this process. Simple sugars are the raw material. Zymase, an enzyme from yeast, changes the simple sugars into ethanol and carbon dioxide. If you use hops instead of corn, you get beer instead of fuel.  

   

Answer>   Making a good beer is a bit harder than that... The basic taste of beer is produced from the malts in the grains used to provide the raw sugars.  The hops ( actually flowers)are used to give the beer a distinctive finished taste.  Guiness the world’s most sold beer, a dinner in a bottle, doesn’t use hops at all.... 100% grain.  Beer also is not distilled so the highest concentration of alcohol that can be achieved is in the neighbourhood of 11%.   

   

   

Quote>   The use of ethanol does provide some benefits. First of all it is renewable.   

   

Answer> True but at what cost?  

   

Quote>    The problem with crude oil is when it's gone, it's gone. No more, finished, kaput, finis.  

   

Answer>   That is why I totally agree that We have to find an alternative to fossil fuels.  It’s just that ethanol isn’t it.  

   

Quote>    1 acre corn = 300 gallons of Ethanol and 400 gallons of unneeded oil imports.   

   

Answer>   1 acre of corn may produce 300 gallons of ethanol but to get that you will use the 400 gallons plus of Diesel fuel.  300 gallons of ethanol will only have the BTUs of less than 200 gallons of gas and less than 100 gallons of diesel fuel.  Total output of BTU ( ethanol + Diesel to produce it) is the equivalent of around 8 acres of ethanol producing land.  This is not reasonable.  

   

   

Quote>    Ethanol is made from corn and other grown grains and when was the last time you saw a year where there wasn't any corn around?   

   

Answer> Being from farming country I figured you would know that only excess grains are exported.  Unfortunately with ethanol production there are no excess crops.  There aren’t even enough crops to fill out own requirements... that’s why the price of chicken and pork is skyrocketing.  

   

Quote>    Since it contains a high amount of oxygen it makes a car engine cleaner burning resulting in a cleaner environment for us to live in. Carbon dioxide emissions are lower thus reducing ground level ozone which people with respiratory problems will be the first to tell you is a problem.  

   

   

Answer>   Are you saying, the fact the stuff is so corrosive has nothing to do with it’s ability to clean? Car engines do not burn cleaner they only do not produce as much CO2 at the tail pipe.  They produce an even nastier derivative of Benzene which is much more damaging top 5the environment.  

   

So yes a car engine will run cleaner for all the wrong reasons and CO2 is still given off in the fermentation process add that to the carbon and benzene derivatives given off when ethanol is burned and then add the exhaust particles of the diesel fuel used to produce the ethanol and it’s anything but clean.  In fact it’s just about the most filthy poisonous stuff that is somehow legal to spew around.  The benzene derivatives that are given off when ethanol burns and are far more devastating to the ozone levels , low and high, than the same concentrations of CO2, are not even detected when fossil fuels are burned.  Ethanol backers do not want this to come to light so they just ignore it hoping no one will notice.  They loose!  

   

Quote>    The emissions produced by burning ethanol are less reactive with sunlight than those produced by burning gasoline. This results in a lower potential for damaging the ozone layer.   

   

Answer>   It probably is less reactive with sunlight because it doesn’t need to react with sunlight to eat ozone.  Works just as well at night as it does during the day.  The result is a much higher level of damage to the ozone layers.  

   

Quote>    The use of ethanol reduces our dependance on imported oil and increases the market for farmers who grow the grains we use to produce ethanol. Now we can stop paying farmers not grow crops and use their excess production as fuel.  

   

Answer>   Because it requires so much fossil fuel to manufacture a gallon of ethanol it actually compounds the oil problem by increasing our dependence on fossil fuel.  

Now we can get to the crux of the matter it is a way the government can do cash injections to farmers by increasing the demand, ergo the price of their crops.  I don’t blame farmers for liking and supporting the idea of ethanol fuel even though they know it’s not true.  Unfortunately it’s not the excess production that’s going into ethanol production...  The excess production is now finding its way to our tables.  Paying farmers not to produce was just another method of playing the game of supply and demand to make farming more viable.  See what would happen if they tax land producing ethanol that was in food production before!  

   

 Quote>   Of course there are some by-products of ethanol production that have to be dealt with. By-products such as corn flour, corn oil, corn meal and corn grits. Other by-products are animal feeds such as Fibrotein TM, corn gluten meal and feed and certain amino acids.  

   

Answer>   It is the natural proteins and sugars in corn that is converted to alcohol so there isn’t any corn oil or Corn Flour.  

A short while ago somebody brought up the use of by products like Fibrotein to me so I checked it out.  It’s partially true! Cows fed the stuff do produce in excess of 15% more milk.   BUT...  These amino acids they talk about are what most of us call steroids... The same steroids we are trying to avoid in our steaks, The same steroids that cause internal bleeding and puss into the milk, the same steroids the producers should have to eat themselves before giving it to unsuspecting farm animals whose lives are made far more painful and shortened. Natural Corn flour and corn oil are removed in the fermentation process leaving what the beer makers call grouts.  The best thing is to compost them.  Of course doing that would be an exercise in diminishing returns.  The real “best thing” is to feed the farm animals the whole corn.   

   

Quote>    Carbon dioxide is another by-product in ethanol production and is used as a refrigerant and putting the fizz in our sodas.  

   

Answer>   Just how much pop can you drink?? (burp!) It can also be used for MIG welding but I haven’t noticed the price of a bottle of CO2 going down have you? I won’t comment on CO2 as a refrigerant.... This is the first time I’ve heard this.  I hope it’s true.  I do have to ask why is it then a bottle of pop doesn’t get noticeably cooler when the pressure is released?  If it were efficient at refrigeration why bother with putting a bottle of Champagne on ice. Why is it that just this week scientists are discussing pumping CO2 deep underground?  With both these uses you mention the end result is it eventually gets released to the air.  

   

Quote>    There are no waste products when ethanol is produced from corn.  

   

Answer>   ethanol itself is a waste product of yeast growing. Other by products are at least questionable as to their benefit to the population in general.  

   

Quote>   It is possible, with certain engine modifications, to run on pure ethanol. Brazil operates almost 50% of their vehicles on pure ethanol. A 10% blend requires no engine modifications at all. There is a very limited selection of vehicles offered by original equipment manufacturers that will run on 85% ethanol blended fuel.  

   

Answer>   Brazil produces almost all its ethanol on excess crops...  They still have the problems of the benzene derivatives produced when ethanol is burned..  Given the choice of the table or the tank I’ll bet they put their crops on the table.  

   Car owners are concerned about what effects ethanol will have on their engines and fuel systems, a valid concern. Let me take this a step at a time.  

<![if !supportLists]>1. <![endif]>Ethanol has a lot less power than gasoline so engines have to be tuned much richer than gas engines the higher the concentration of ethanol the richer the tune required.  Add to this to burn ethanol efficiently the engine should also have a high compression ratio (CR)  that in itself will cause your engine to age faster.  

<![if !supportLists]>2. <![endif]>Ethanol is corrosive.  It will eventually eat the inside of your engine and fuel system.  Unless you are lucky enough to have those items made of titanium or glass.  

<![if !supportLists]>3. <![endif]>The descendants of monsieur Armand Bombardier allow their engines to operate on up to 10% ethanol tainted gas.  No where do they advise to use this fuel!   

   

Quote>    New car warranties.  

Ethanol began being used in 1979 and auto manufactures did not address the use of ethanol blended fuels. Then when they began testing their vehicles with the new blended fuels, they were able to approve the use of the 10% ethanol blended fuels. Some went as far as to recommend the new blended fuels in their vehicles.  

   

Answer>   Problem is when ethanol eats out car components, eventually it will,  the manufacturer make more money replacing the parts.  A good reason to stay as far from ethanol on the ground as possible.  No doubt by recommending people use blended fuels they are insuring the high sales of expensive engine parts for years to come.  

   

   

Quote>    Do I have to do anything to my engine to use a 10% ethanol fuel?  

All engines built from 1970 can use the 10% ethanol blended fuels with no problems or modifications. A carburetted engine may need an adjustment to take full advantage of the fuel.  

   

Answer>   Because there is so much less power in ethanol compared to gasoline the engine will have to be tuned much richer to get some of the power experienced with gasoline back.  To burn efficiently you will need to increase your CR. The one good point is because ethanol has an RON of 116 your engine probably won’t ping as the fuel eats it’s guts out.  

   

   

Quote>    Will the new fuels work in a fuel injected engine?  

It sure will. At first you may need to change the fuel filter more often as the ethanol cleans out the fuel system, but once that is done fuel filter replacement will go back to normal.  

   

Answer>   Bull feathers !  Once the loose crud is released, because ethanol is so corrosive,  and caught in the filters the rest of the parts that are being corroded will pass right through the filters.  If one has to use ethanol. I mean really, really, has to use ethanol then fuel injection is how it should be done.  In aircraft add a fuel system pressurized (with nitrogen?) to keep the crap from absorbing water out of the air while on the ground  Just wait for the corrosive action to consume the engine.  

   

   

Quote>    Ethanol can loosen contaminants and residues that have been deposited by previous gasoline fills. These can collect in the fuel filter. This problem has happened occasionally in older cars, and can easily be corrected by changing fuel filters. Since 1985 all ethanol blended fuels and most non-blended fuels have had detergents added to them to keep fuel injectors clean and prevent deposits that could clog them.  

   

Answer>   After changing the filters the ethanol will just start to eat your; fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel lines, FUEL FILTER, injection pump and injectors.  I forgot to mention what it will do to your fuel gauge sending unit.  All gasoline is blended... that’s what makes gas, gas.  Other ingredients are changed with seasons and availability.  Only one gasoline, locally available, doesn’t change its recipe that’s 100LL.  Ethanol won’t only clean your injectors given enough time it will consume them and your new iridium plugs etc...  

   

Quote>    Will adding a gas line anti-freeze cause problems?  

Gas line anti-freezes are made from ethanol, methanol or isopropyl alcohol to absorb water in the fuel and keep it from freezing. That one little bottle of gas line anti-freeze is about 0.3% of the volume of a full gas tank. With a 10% ethanol blended fuel, it's 10% so it will absorb a lot more water and you'll never have to worry about a frozen fuel line. Now you don't have to worry about buying it, keeping it in the trunk and adding it to the tank when you fill up.  

   

Answer>   So true.  Now all you have to worry about is a phase separation which can occur, especially in humid climes when the temperature drops..  Let’s not talk about what happens to your dirt cheap injector pump and injectors when water gets into them.  Can anyone say pressurized fuel system... starting at the distillery.  

BTW if you are in the habit of doctoring your gas with MMO or some other lubricant be advised the presence of oil  in the gas accelerates phase separation with the ethanol and any moisture joining the oil.  A fine mess to write off a fuel injection system.   

   

   

Quote>    What about my valves?  

Not to worry, ethanol burns cooler than straight gasoline helping to keep the valves cool. This is the main reason that high powered racing engines burn straight alcohol.  

   

Answer>   Ethanol burns cooler because there isn’t as much power in it.  Racing authorities mandating/requiring the use of ethanol was an attempt to restrict post crash explosions. Now you can see people burn in flames you cannot see... Great stuff to have on the highway.  

   

   

 Quote>   Will ethanol hurt my older engine designed for leaded gas?  

No. The concern about older engines came about because of the lead phase-out. Lead oxides that were formed during combustion provided a cushion that reduced wear on non-case-hardened valve seats. Therefore, it is the absence of lead, not the presence of ethanol, that is of concern.  

   

Answer>   Finally a point I have not one issue with.  Of course you can have your valves and seats treated so then ethanol will have something to dine on.    

   

   

Quote>    Why do some mechanics say not to use ethanol?  

A mechanic who says not to use ethanol does not have correct information. There is very little information available for mechanics on fuel formulation, so when there appears to be a fuel-related problem with an engine, some mechanics will immediately ask if ethanol has been used. The only reason ethanol is suspected is that in many states it is the only gasoline component other than lead that has an identifying label. In North Dakota, New Mexico, and Idaho, ethanol proponents have offered a $100 reward to any customer who can document damage from ethanol to his or her car, and so far no one has ever collected.  

   

Answer>   The mechanic who advises you not to use ethanol is HONEST.  He is smart enough to see the truth regardless of what the spin doctors say.  Ethanol  will have a lot more effect on your car than a daily cigar will have on your health... and we all know cigars are not good for your heath.  No one ever will collect the $100 reward because people who offer the award will always credit other factors with the damage ethanol did.  I note they don’t address the damage it does to the atmosphere even before its burned. That’s worth a lot more than a lousy hundred bucks and they don’t want to be held responsible for that.  

   

Quote>    Okay, what about my gas milage?  

At the very worst it will be very slight. Ethanol contains 97% of the energy that pure gasoline has. But because the combustion efficiency is increased, the slight reduction in energy content is compensated for. Most users will not notice the decrease, if any, and many people have reported an increase in fuel milage.  

   

Answer>   Obviously there is a type-o error here it’s not 97% but closer to 67% ( actually  lower than that) adding 10 % to your perfectly good gas will reduce your mileage, all else equal, around 20%.  I know I’d notice that for sure.  There are two ways I can see a slight mileage decrease;   

<![if !supportLists]>1. <![endif]>Your engine has been detonating all over the place.. Ethanol with an RON of around 116 will actually allow your engine to run smoother and therefore more efficiently possibly increasing fuel mileage until bits and pieces of your engine are consumed.  

<![if !supportLists]>2. <![endif]>Your  name is Jethro Bodine and you ciphering at grade six level has damaged a few brain cells....  

   

   

   

Quote>        Can I use it in my lawn mower?  

No, you'll have to stop mowing the lawn every week. Only kidding, I thought I saw a few people smile at that prospect. The answer is yes, you can use the 10% ethanol blended fuels anywhere you use regular unleaded fuel. It can be used in any lawn mower, snow plow, snowmobile, ATV and any other gas powered engine. There may be some carburetor adjustment needed, so always refer to your equipments owner’s manual before using it.  

   

Answer>    You were right when you said NO!  Ethanol should never be used for fuel except as “Party fuel”.  Your engines will survive small uses of 10% ethanol.  Because of it’s corrosive cleaning nature occasional use may not be bad.  I won’t advise continued chronic use.    

   

   

Quote>        Can I use it in diesel engine?  

No, Diesel fuel and ethanol don't mix. Besides which gasoline is an octane fuel while diesel fuel is a cetain fuel.  

   

Answer>   Can you use it??? Definitely!  The whole idea of a Diesel engine is it can be made to run on any fuel.  It can be made to run on wood chips if you want and it most certainly can be made to run on ethanol... up to the point where the ethanol eats the engine.  Ethanol won’t mix with diesel fuel so you’d be captured into using one or the other.  The injector pump fuel rails and injectors would all have to be changed.  

   

Quote>    Ethanol is a very safe fuel, if you spill it it will not contaminate the ground water.  

   

Answer>   Ethanol is an organic compound.  I’m not sure if it will contaminate ground water but it will kill just about any plant it comes in contact with. Just try an ounce or so on your wife’s prize rosebush.  Better not, you’ll just be adding to the dangers of ethanol.   

   

Quote>    If you drink it, you'll get drunk. Although if you drink large quantities you will suffer liver damage. In fact, if you drink just about any alcoholic beverage, you're drinking ethanol in one form or another.   

   

Answer>   As for drinking the stuff that you get from the gas station you can’t even distil the eth out of it.  They have a compound in the ethanol that distils at the same temperature.  That compound will make you very sick.  If you wash the ethanol out of the gas the compound goes with the ethanol.  You might be able to distil it again and use it to clean parts.  

   

Quote>    I was hard pressed to find any down sides to the use of ethanol as a fuel. There are reports that the emissions of an ethanol burning engine can adversely affect plant life, but studies are still being conducted to prove or disprove this.  

   

Answer> with all your wrong answers about engines, races, toxicity of ethanol and production logistics I’m not surprised you missed the “down sides” If I were you I’d read up on benzene.  

   

   

Quote>    Copyright Â© 2000 - 2003 Vincent T. Ciulla All Rights Reserved  

   

Answer>   I claim no copyright to my opinions and ideas.  The truth actually belongs to all of us.  Please feel free spread it around.  Please, don’t believe what I’ve said here, Carte Blanche.  Check it out for yourself.  

   

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again and again and again... We have a huge problem with fossil fuels. They are dirty, they are toxic and they are in limited supply.  Ethanol is NOT the answer... it’s worse than a decoy leading us from finding a real viable answer it’s like a double agent; Paid by one crowd to put down the home crowd.  

   

Guy: I hope this is what you were looking for  

   

   

[img]cid:image002.jpg(at)01C89E44.60A8F770[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]

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Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: Ethanol removal?

Randy:   

   

What you say is true.  In fact you can get a pretty good crop of seaweed growing inside the fuel tanks of jets.  I expect it’s nature’s way of removing the water that forms in the tanks through condensation.  Those tanks unlike smaller planes are generally carrying fresh fuel 24-7.  They also see warm and sub zero temperatures every day.  

   

   

   

Gas molecules are formed of rings...Carbon rings.  Water on the other hand is polar they can’t form homogenous mixes, phase relationships or solutions.  Sooner than later water will settle out.  I’ve even checked this out with the past owner of a specialty lab and was assured that water and oil or gas do not mix but it may take time for the water to settle out.  In the case of jet fuel because the fuel itself is so much more viscous than gas it may, especially at lower temperatures, take a lot longer to settle out.    

   

Diesel is especially prone to water from any source, including condensation while sitting in underground storage tanks.  The high pressure injector pumps and the injectors themselves can be ruined by even the smallest amount of water.  A lot of diesel vehicles have water detectors that can now shut off fuel flow and disable starters if any water is in the fuel system.  It’s expensive to remove the water but not nearly as expensive a replacing the injectors and pump.  Unlike diesel injectors turbine injectors easily pass water so there is no problem there.  

   

I expect someday soon a procedure to produce ethanol from cellulose will be perfected.  I expect also it won’t be energy efficient.  And it still doesn’t address the problems of CO2 and benzene.  

   

Yes I enjoy the discussions and I’m always open to new ideas.  Ethanol isn’t all bad.  I’ve consumed enough of it J. I digress!  It is, however, bad as a fuel, in a country where the raw material can go too far better uses.  If ethanol production were limited to excess farm product, some of the wind would be taken out of my sails.  

   

   

[img]cid:image003.jpg(at)01C89E52.1280D8C0[/img]  

   

Noel Loveys  

Campbellton, NL, Canada  

CDN AME intern, PP-Rec  

C-FINB, Kitfox III-A  

582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats  

[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]  

   

   

   

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh

 Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 12:36 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Ethanol removal?  

  

  

   

Noel,  

I agree with you on ethanol from Corn.  The only justification that I can see is it may help get the infrastructure in place for ethanol from cellulose.  

   

But what I was addressing was the danger of a home operation to remove ethanol from gasoline with water.  I was assuming that you were completely successful in removing the ethanol and the danger that the remaining water presents.  You seem to like the sideways arguments so I will toss one out to you.    

   

Water is much more soluble in gasoline than diesel fuel.  Yet there is a spec for water in diesel fuel.  And it is there for a reason.  

   

Randy  

     

.             

  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys

 Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 1:14 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Ethanol removal?  

  

   

Thanks I have lots of Chemistry books.  Yes there is a minimal dissolving of water in gasoline (PPB).  For all practical purposes, none. Certainly not enough to separate from the gasoline by temperature changes or be the principal cause of carb icing.  If that were true ethanol would be a required ingredient of 100LL.  Funny it’s not.  Funny the accepted method of removing water form 100LL is to drain water drops from the sumps until no droplets can be found or filter the gas through a chamois or felt.  

   

The same is not true for gasoline that has been contaminated with ethanol.  Once contaminated with ethanol the gas can separate from the gas.  This phase separation occurs much easier if there is oil present in the gasoline.  

   

I did however do a quick search for solubility of water into gasoline.  There were several notations of this but they almost all related to the water actually forming a solution with ethanol in the gas.  There is a reference to the addition of salt HCL in the water making it more soluble for gasoline if the concentrations of HCL are correct.    

   

I searched further and found this.  

   

“Gasoline and water do not mix because the non-polar hydrocarbon molecules (water is polar) would disrupt the water in such a way as to produce a structure that was actually lower entropy; therefore, the mixture is less likely to exist than the separate liquids.”  Sounds good but I can’t confirm the reliability of the source.  

   

The idea that gasoline is more conducive to carb icing or water separation over ethanol contaminated gas is lacking in substance.  Just check your chemistry books.  

   

Noel  

   

   

   

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chrigra(at)gmx.ch
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:08 am Post subject: Ethanol removal?

Datum: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:03:22 +0200

Von: "Christoph Graf" <chrigra(at)gmx.ch>

An: \'kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Betreff: Fwd: FW: Re: Re: Ethanol removal?





 	  Quote: 	
		   ______________________________________________ 

 From: 	Graf, Christoph  

 Sent:	Tuesday, April 15, 2008 10:01 AM

 To:	'kitfox-list(at)matronics.com'

 Subject:	Re: Re: Ethanol removal?

 

 Hi

 

 Ethanol made by corn generates near 4 times the over all environment damage per BTU than regular fuel (usage of ground, water (4000 liters per liter Ethanol!), energie, chemicals and  pollution (Cox, Nox))

 It is the big lie of our politics

 

 Ethanol made by carbage is OK!

 

 Read this:

 http://www.empa.ch/plugin/template/empa/3/60112/---/l=1

 

 regards

 

 

 Christoph 

 KFIV/582

 Switzerland

 


	


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