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M14P & M14PF engines

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richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: M14P & M14PF engines

 Since we have sold a lot more of these engines than anyone else I suppose we should have a view on the relative issues between them.  
Our experience, drawn from over 250 engines, is that the PF is statistically somewhat more reliable than the P.  
Remember also that many PFs are worked extremely hard in Unlimited Level competition Sukhois etc.    
However to present an accurate picture, a much higher proportion of the PFs that we have sold have been 'new' rather than overhauled and I am sure this must affect the statistics.  
The PF is not a recent engine - the first ones were being flown in 1984 and then sold from 1990 - I would guess that there are something like 200 in service so we have a large 'database' already.  
I use a PF in my own Yak-18T, where apart from the obvious advantages of take-off distance; rate of climb, the aircraft is very significantly faster in cruise if you go up to 8/10,000 feet, and, I suspect, for many pilots this is where the real advantage might lie in long trips.  
To get the performance advantage from a PF you must use the MTV 3-blade propeller.  The V-530 2-blade can only transmit about 350hp, beyond that it becomes inefficient.  
To clarify the official overhaul times, the first overhaul for a new engine is 750 hours and then a further three overhauls at 500 hours each to give a life of 2250 hours.  These are the limits that we in Europe have to follow, although we recognise they are absurdly conservative.  
I would be interested to hear of M14P or M14PF engines being operated in the US with over 1,000 hours since new/overhaul - I am led to believe that there are engines with well over 2,000 hours - is this true?  
In terms of engine longevity the following are critical:   Careful warming up, and more importantly, careful cooling down.  
Total avoidance of oil in the lower cylinders on start up.  
The use of good quality - ie detergent, but not multigrade Western oil.  
Pre-heating if starting below +5 degrees centigrade. 

 

  

Richard Goode Aerobatics  

Rhodds Farm  

Lyonshall  

Hereford  

HR5 3LW  

United Kingdom  

   

Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120  

Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129  

www.russianaeros.com  

     [quote][b]

jland(at)popeandland.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: M14P & M14PF engines

Richard

 

 What problem have you found with multigrade oil in M14s?

 

 Thanks, Jay

 

 

 From: Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com>

 Reply-To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:44:51 +0100

 To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: M14P & M14PF engines

 

 Since we have sold a lot more of these engines than anyone else I suppose we should have a view on the relative issues between them.  
Our experience, drawn from over 250 engines, is that the PF is statistically somewhat more reliable than the P.  
Remember also that many PFs are worked extremely hard in Unlimited Level competition Sukhois etc.   
However to present an accurate picture, a much higher proportion of the PFs that we have sold have been 'new' rather than overhauled and I am sure this must affect the statistics.  
The PF is not a recent engine - the first ones were being flown in 1984 and then sold from 1990 - I would guess that there are something like 200 in service so we have a large 'database' already.  
I use a PF in my own Yak-18T, where apart from the obvious advantages of take-off distance; rate of climb, the aircraft is very significantly faster in cruise if you go up to 8/10,000 feet, and, I suspect, for many pilots this is where the real advantage might lie in long trips.  
To get the performance advantage from a PF you must use the MTV 3-blade propeller.  The V-530 2-blade can only transmit about 350hp, beyond that it becomes inefficient.  
To clarify the official overhaul times, the first overhaul for a new engine is 750 hours and then a further three overhauls at 500 hours each to give a life of 2250 hours.  These are the limits that we in Europe have to follow, although we recognise they are absurdly conservative.  
I would be interested to hear of M14P or M14PF engines being operated in the US with over 1,000 hours since new/overhaul - I am led to believe that there are engines with well over 2,000 hours - is this true?  
In terms of engine longevity the following are critical: 

 Careful warming up, and more importantly, careful cooling down.  
Total avoidance of oil in the lower cylinders on start up.  
The use of good quality - ie detergent, but not multigrade Western oil.  
Pre-heating if starting below +5 degrees centigrade. 

 Richard Goode Aerobatics 

 Rhodds Farm 

 Lyonshall 

 Hereford 

 HR5 3LW 

 United Kingdom 

   

 Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120 

 Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129 

 www.russianaeros.com <http://www.russianaeros.com> 

 

 

 

 ail Forum -

 ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

 ;  - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 matronics.com

 ;- List Contribution Web Site -

 ;                 -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 ://www.matronics.com/contribution

 

 

       [quote][b]

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:59 am Post subject: M14P & M14PF engines

Vedenyeev have tried Western multigrade oils  and say that they are too thin.

 However,they do accept that a good Western  oil with detergent is significantly better than their oil.

 Richard

  

 Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5  3LW

United Kingdom

  

 Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax:  +44 (0) 1544  340129

www.russianaeros.com



 [quote]   ---

petervs(at)knology.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:54 am Post subject: M14P & M14PF engines

Hmmm, We have 4 yaks running Philips X/C 25W60 for Radial Engines for at least the last three years with no apparent problems yet.  

   

How do they quantify what too thin is?  

   

Squatch  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode

 Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 11:56 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: M14P & M14PF engines  

  

  

     

Vedenyeev have tried Western multigrade oils and say that they are too thin.  

    

However,they do accept that a good Western oil with detergent is significantly better than their oil.  

    

Richard  

    

   

    

Richard Goode Aerobatics

 Rhodds Farm

 Lyonshall

 Hereford

 HR5 3LW

 United Kingdom  

    

   

    

Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120

 Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129

 www.russianaeros.com  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Jay Land (jland(at)popeandland.com)   

    

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 5:28 PM  

    

Subject: Re: M14P & M14PF engines  

    

   

  

Richard

 

 What problem have you found with multigrade oil in M14s?

 

 Thanks, Jay

 

       

  

From: Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)>

 Reply-To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>

 Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:44:51 +0100

 To: <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>

 Subject: M14P & M14PF engines    Since      we have sold a lot more of these engines than anyone else I suppose we      should have a view on the relative issues between them.   
Our      experience, drawn from over 250 engines, is that the PF is statistically      somewhat more reliable than the P.   
Remember      also that many PFs are worked extremely hard in Unlimited Level      competition Sukhois etc.     
However      to present an accurate picture, a much higher proportion of the PFs that      we have sold have been 'new' rather than overhauled and I am sure this      must affect the statistics.   
The      PF is not a recent engine - the first ones were being flown in 1984 and      then sold from 1990 - I would guess that there are something like 200 in      service so we have a large 'database' already.   
I      use a PF in my own Yak-18T, where apart from the obvious advantages of      take-off distance; rate of climb, the aircraft is very significantly      faster in cruise if you go up to 8/10,000 feet, and, I suspect, for many      pilots this is where the real advantage might lie in long trips.   
To      get the performance advantage from a PF you must use the MTV 3-blade      propeller.  The V-530 2-blade can only transmit about 350hp, beyond      that it becomes inefficient.   
To      clarify the official overhaul times, the first overhaul for a new engine      is 750 hours and then a further three overhauls at 500 hours each to give      a life of 2250 hours.  These are the limits that we in Europe have to      follow, although we recognise they are absurdly conservative.   
I      would be interested to hear of M14P or M14PF engines being operated in the      US with over 1,000 hours since new/overhaul - I am led to believe that      there are engines with well over 2,000 hours - is this true?   
In      terms of engine longevity the following are critical:  
                Careful warming up, and more importantly,         careful cooling down.      
Total avoidance of oil in the lower         cylinders on start up.      
The use of good quality - ie detergent,         but not multigrade Western oil.      
Pre-heating if starting below +5 degrees         centigrade.             
   
  
   

Richard Goode Aerobatics 

 Rhodds Farm 

 Lyonshall 

 Hereford 

 HR5 3LW 

 United Kingdom 

   

 Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120 

 Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129 

 www.russianaeros.com <http://www.russianaeros.com> 

 

 

 

 ail Forum -

 ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

 ;  - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 matronics.com

 ;- List Contribution Web Site -

 ;                 -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 ://www.matronics.com/contribution

 

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        [quote][b]

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:54 am Post subject: M14P & M14PF engines

In a message dated 4/21/2008 11:48:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com writes:

  

 I have 1,384 hours on my M-14P that I purchased from Aerostar new.   

 At 438 hours, it started making metal and I found that the factory had  installed a scraper ring where the oil ring should have been on #3 piston.   At that point I scuffed the bores of all 9 cylinders, put in all new  rings and gaskets.  

 At this annual I found #9 cylinder 46/80.  Found the top compression  ring busted.  Replaced all the rings on it from the original parts  that came with the engine from the factory. (I measured the end clearance of the  new rings and the old rings in the bore.  NO DIFFERANCE)

  

 I've had the mags rebuilt once (bearings and coil at 600 or 700hrs).   

 Replaced the ignition harness and used the auto plugs (some 300 hours  now).  

 I have ALWAYS used (from day one) a 10 micron oil filter.   

 I have a pre-oiler and have always used 100w detergent oil (never multi  grade except in a pinch)

 I try to change the oil every 35 to 40 hours.  At this point  she uses about 1.75 qts/hr.

 On compression checks all air seem to be coming out the breather  only.  Average is 72/80.

 I normally cruise at 28imp and 2050 rpm.  During acro I set 2400rpm  and push and hold 32-34 imp.

  

 Plus I follow the items that Richard listed below.

  

 BTW keeping engines "Over Square" is not a pipe dream.  The M-14P may  not be as susceptible to same forces as the big engines (PW1830 or Wright  1820) but those same forces are there to some degree.  Believe if you had  were able to see ( I have ) the effects by not doing so (and paid for  it) you would never let the prop drive the engine.

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  

  	  Quote: 	
		          I would be interested to hear of M14P or      M14PF engines being operated in the US with over 1,000 hours since      new/overhaul - I am led to believe that there are engines with well over      2,000 hours - is this true?      
In terms of engine longevity the      following are critical:                                 Careful warming up, and more            importantly, careful cooling down.            
Total avoidance of oil in the lower            cylinders on start up.            
The use of good quality - ie            detergent, but not multigrade Western oil.            
Pre-heating if starting below +5            degrees centigrade. 



   

Richard Goode Aerobatics    

Rhodds Farm  

	




Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

DANDMAZ(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: M14P & M14PF engines

I have 890 hours on my CJ-6 Mp-14P that I  purchased from Carl Hays new in 1997.

 Have replaced the right mag coil, 

 Like Jim same power in cruise and  acro.

 Last annual lowest cylinder compression 77/80.  

 Have had a Champion (Ch48109)   oil filter since new. 

 Used Aero Shell ( 100) and (120) for the first  300 hours then switched to Phillips X-C 25/60, here in Arizona (KDVT)  temperatures can run up to 50 celsius in the summer.

 Changed oil and filter every 35 to 45 hours,  burns 1/2 quart cruise and 1/2 to one quart during acro, oil tank  level 15 1/2 liters.

 Replaced the Ignition harness and spark plugs  with auto at 767 hours.

 Have heat pad on oil tank for low temperature in  winter.

 Plus I follow the items that Jim and Richard  listed.

  

  Don Andrews, N23YK

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject: M14P & M14PF engines

Hi Richard;

  

 There are no "detergent" oils certified for  aircraft engines. What you are referring to is an "ashless dispersant" additive  - quite different from automotive oils.

  

 The Russians probably tried Aeroshell W15W50 and  found it too thin. I agree with that.  IMHO the only acceptable multigrade  is Phillips X/C 25W60 (20W50 is also too thin). I have used 25W60 in  the R985, R1340 for about 25 years and in the Huosai and M14 for at least ten  years.

  

 Walt   

  

  

 [quote]   ---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: M14P & M14PF engines

I concur with that too Richard.  I've run nothing but 25W60 in my stock

YAK-50 for 9 years now.  Over 750 hours flown and the only issues I've

had are mags going bad (both within 50 hours of each other) and leaking

exhaust valves from lead build-up, now reduced greatly since I began

running... Dare I say it?  MMO.  



Walt, just as a comment, there are indeed many brands of automotive oil

that are "ashless dispersant".  An example is Valvoline Racing Oil.

Same reason by and large.  The oil burns better without contaminating

the plugs.  At least that is why I was led to believe by the factory

rep.  



Mark Bitterlich

 



--

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: M14P & M14PF engines

 	  Quote: 	
		   Walt, just as a comment, there are indeed many brands of automotive oil

 that are "ashless dispersant".  An example is Valvoline Racing Oil.

 Same reason by and large.  The oil burns better without contaminating

 the plugs.  At least that is why I was led to believe by the factory

 rep.



 Mark Bitterlich


	


Mark;



I had a conversation with a Shell rep many years ago about their new "W" 

ashless dispersant oil. As I recall they had experimented with detergent 

oils for aircraft but had determined that there was a danger of pre-ignition 

in air cooled cylinders due to the presence of super heated ash particles 

from the detergent. Apparently not a problem with liquid cooling.



Perhaps racing engines are subject to higher temperatures and a similar 

problem with detergents.



That was so many years back I may be totally out to lunch but that is what I 

remember.



Cheers;

Walt

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: M14P & M14PF engines

In the scheme of things... It matters very little .... At least as what

concerns automobiles!    



As an aside, the oil I was talking about does not contain detergent.

These oils were designed for use in drag racing applications primarily,

where oil changes take place just about every time you run them.  



Mark Bitterlich

 



--

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: M14P & M14PF engines

On Apr 21, 2008, at 9:56 AM, Richard Goode wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Vedenyeev have tried Western multigrade oils and say that they are  

 too thin.


	


Yes, they are "thin". They are supposed to be. Have they done wear  

tests?



At normal operating temperature 25W60 multi-vis oil has the same  

viscosity as 100W straight-viscosity oil. At maximum temperature 25W60  

has the same viscosity as 120W oil.



Certainly the better pour-point and more rapid circulation of oil aids  

when the engine is cold and most prone to wear.



So I come back to the question about wear tests.

--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

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