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PLAV8R

Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 30
Location: Prior Lake, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

You guys are coming up with some valuable information.  What a knowledge base exist out there. It is greatly appreciated.



  My personal feeling is my brother picked the plane up just before AMD was going to Oshkosh that year.  I think they may have been in a rush to complete the plane.  Like I said in the Forum, There were issues right from the beginning.  When he was going for the check-out flight the pitot static system was not working. The brakes had low fluid and did not wore (had to be bled and filled).  The pitot static fitting to the auto pilot was cross-threaded.  I believe one of the fuel gauges did not work, so they pulled one from another airplane.

  When my brothers were flying to Minnesota from Eastman Georgia they had to disconnect the auto-pilot because it would make drastic changes.    When they got here (Lakeville, Mn) they replaced the auto-pilot with a new one.There was oil under the plane.  We looked around a bit and found that it was coming from the starter (a small hole in the back).  A piece of tape proved where the leak was.  He eventually received a new starter and the same thing occurred.  A magneto was also replaced.

  With the starter it was determined that there was excessive crankcase pressure (Continental O-200).  I believe they (an AP) replaced a cylinder and at that time they noticed a crack in the prop.  The AP check and found the wrong bolts (too long) were used for the prop and when torqued down to specs there must have been some play.  Maybe this created some harmonics of some sort during the previous 90 hours which may lead to fatigue (just a guess).

  My brother was also taking the LSA AP classes and received a certificate.  They looked at the plane during the class.  There was some mention of "smoking rivets" in the undercarriage.  To my best recollection AMD told him to maybe use "wet rivets" or something at the next annual.

  I had also been told that in some cases when putting the wings on that some people may have pounded the wing attach bolts to get things lined up during assembly, which I feel would create a stress riser.



Hope this enlightens a little bit. 



IMPORTANT: It also has come to my attention that the A&P that discovered the cracked prop and torque problem, along with the instructor for my brothers LSA A&P are being litigated against.



I hope to get someone at the NTSB to look at this forum and see all the valuable aids that may be here for their research.



Thanks to every one of you,

Don

_________________
Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
don.dennehey@gmail.com
Prior Lake, Minnesota
Cessna 175 N7656M
Cessna 140 N90123

tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

 	  Quote: 	
		  > I hope the NTSB is thinking about these scenarios as much as we are. <<


	


That's an understatement, Jim. Along with the NTSB sifting through the evidence with their fine toothed combs, you can bet that Zenith is also playing a big part in the determination of the causal factors.



I just spoke with Sebastien at Zenith, and he did say that they're between a rock and a hard place in being able to release any of the specific findings of the investigation until the report is released by the NTSB.



But, I can share what he told me. So far, the investigation into the California and Florida crashes hasn't turned any single "smoking gun" failure mode common to either one.  He assured me, that if they had found anything that implicated the airworthiness of the fleet, that there would be an immediate release about it.



His own feeling is that there's just no way a 601 can suffer an in-flight breakup without encountering some massive G loads at some point in its past, overstressing the structure. As someone who has seen the cumulative effects of crack propagation in aluminum airframe structures (certified aircraft), I would tend to agree with him.



So, I'll keep flying my 601 XL, but I will take a bit of extra time during the preflight, and check the main and rear spar attachments. I'll also take a very close look at all of the attach fasteners to make sure that they're not fretting, or torqued properly.



Like everyone else whose butt is on the line every time they saddle up in a 601 (or any other aircraft), I'm looking forward to the day we have some concrete answers.



But in the mean time, I'll exercise a little extra vigilance while inspecting the airframe.



Rick Lindstrom

N42KP



--

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

I think that is a bit unfair...  We don't see the details of other  planes crashes so we don't know if the wings were on them or not at the time of  impact. I know Van's had to retest their wing design because of some wing issues  and the test showed the wings were engineered correctly. Just as Zenith has  done. I have it on good authority that one of the 601's was seen on radar  ascending and descending 3 to 400 feet just before break up so what does that  tell us? The NTSB has no obligation to report or even examine a experimental  crash so we get less than great information. Someone from the EAA should get  together a team together and study crashes if no one else is doing it to our  satisfaction.

  	  Quote: 	
		  This was    my point from an earlier posting that no one commented on.  I counted    about 240 registered XL's in the US.  4 structural failures equals    1.7%.  That seems quite high to me.  I also looked at the NTSB    records for the top LSA's on the market and found zero structural failures and    very few fatalities.  Planes just don't break up at that rate.  

	


 

  



Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

  [quote][b]

frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

Tort liability is among the reasons I neither fix airplanes, nor practice law anymore.  It seems to me that unreasonable standards of care will be applied by unknowledgeable juries and other finders of fact.

  

 Frank

 do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

 From: donald.j.dennehey(at)seagate.com

 Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:29:59 -0700

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "PLAV8R" <donald.j.dennehey(at)seagate.com>

 

 You guys are coming up with some valuable information. What a knowledge base exist out there. It is greatly appreciated.

 

 My personal feeling is my brother picked the plane up just before AMD was going to Oshkosh that year. I think they may have been in a rush to complete the plane. Like I said in the Forum, There were issues right from the beginning. When he was going for the check-out flight the pitot static system was not working. The brakes had low fluid and did not wore (had to be bled and filled). The pitot static fitting to the auto pilot was cross-threaded. I believe one of the fuel gauges did not work, so they pulled one from another airplane.

 When my brothers were flying to Minnesota from Eastman Georgia they had to disconnect the auto-pilot because it would make drastic changes. When they got here (Lakeville, Mn) they replaced the auto-pilot with a new one.There was oil under the plane. We looked around a bit and found that it was coming from the starter (a small hole in the back). A piece of tape proved where the leak was. He eventually received a new starter and the same thing occurred. A magneto was also replaced.

 With the starter it was determined that there was excessive crankcase pressure (Continental O-200). I believe they (an AP) replaced a cylinder and at that time they noticed a crack in the prop. The AP check and found the wrong bolts (too long) were used for the prop and when torqued down to specs there must have been some play. Maybe this created some harmonics of some sort during the previous 90 hours which may lead to fatigue (just a guess).

 My brother was also taking the LSA AP classes and received a certificate. They looked at the plane during the class. There was some mention of "smoking rivets" in the undercarriage. To my best recollection AMD told him to maybe use "wet rivets" or something at the next annual.

 I had also been told that in some cases when putting the wings on that some people may have pounded the wing attach bolts to get things lined up during assembly, which I feel would create a stress riser.

 

 Hope this enlightens a little bit. 

 

 IMPORTANT: It also has come to my attention that the A&P that discovered the cracked prop and torque problem, along with the instructor for my brothers LSA A&P are being litigated against.

 

 I hope to get someone at the NTSB to look at this forum and see all the valuable aids that may be here for their research.

 

 Thanks to every one of you,

 Don

 

 --------

 Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.

 Prior Lake, Minnesota

 Cessna 175 N7656M

 Cessna 140 N90123

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179037#179037

 

 > 

 

 


	


In a rush? Get real-time answers with Windows Live Messenger.  [quote][b]

tigerrick(at)mindspring.c
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

One more thing, there's a new letter from Chris on the Zenith site:



http://www.zenithair.com/news/index.html



Rick



--

frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

Title 49 of the US Code does require the NTSB to investigate all civil aviation accidents:

 § 1132. Civil aircraft accident investigations 

 (a) General authority.--(1) The National Transportation Safety Board shall investigate--

 (A) each accident involving civil aircraft

  	  Quote: 	
		    From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:25:24 -0400

Subject: Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com



   I think that is a bit unfair...  We don't see the details of other planes crashes so we don't know if the wings were on them or not at the time of impact. I know Van's had to retest their wing design because of some wing issues and the test showed the wings were engineered correctly. Just as Zenith has done. I have it on good authority that one of the 601's was seen on radar ascending and descending 3 to 400 feet just before break up so what does that tell us? The NTSB has no obligation to report or even examine a experimental crash so we get less than great information. Someone from the EAA should get together a team together and study crashes if no one else is doing it to our satisfaction.

  	  Quote: 	
		  This was my point from an earlier posting that no one commented on.  I counted about 240 registered XL's in the US.  4 structural failures equals 1.7%.  That seems quite high to me.  I also looked at the NTSB records for the top LSA's on the market and found zero structural failures and very few fatalities.  Planes just don't break up at that rate. 

	


 

  



   Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

 	  Quote: 	
		  



arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

p://forums.matronics.com

blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	
Back to work after baby– how do you know when you’re ready?  [quote][b]

PLAV8R

Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 30
Location: Prior Lake, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

I want to reiterate.  I have great respect for Chris Heinz and his contributions to aviation.  If my father had any doubts of the integrity of the 601XL SLSA he would not have purchased one.  He also wanted the certified Continental.

You people are the experts and I have nothing but admiration for each and every one of you.  I hope this gets figured out so I can go fly a 601XL again in the future.



Sincerely,

Don

_________________
Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
don.dennehey@gmail.com
Prior Lake, Minnesota
Cessna 175 N7656M
Cessna 140 N90123

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

If you've got a wind tunnel,or can get some one to test it I've a complete 

flying 601XL they can test.. Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM

---

passpat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

if everyone would say for now we (meaning anyone thinking of or buying a part or any kind of Zenair product connected to the 601XL) are not going to support any purchases or make any purchases until Zenair comments are made and supported we would get some action on thier part.

 

 Pat

 

 

 --

frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

Zenithair and Zenair seem to be very actively supporting the NTSB investigation.  If you can name one specific thing they should be doing, then do so, but to suggest a boycott is irresponsible.

 [quote]  To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 19:09:09 -0400

From: passpat(at)aol.com

if everyone would say for now we (meaning anyone thinking of or buying a part or any kind of Zenair product connected to the 601XL) are not going to support any purchases or make any purchases until Zenair comments are made and supported we would get some action on thier part.

Pat

--

PLAV8R

Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 30
Location: Prior Lake, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

I must agree.  I am not trying to point fingers.  I feel Zodiac has a lot of integrity and wants to resolve issues to a somewhat ambiguous set circumstances in a diligent manner.  I do hope they get all the support from any finding that may develop

_________________
Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
don.dennehey@gmail.com
Prior Lake, Minnesota
Cessna 175 N7656M
Cessna 140 N90123

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

Jim, just for the record,I've always thought the rear spar attachment was 

the key to disaster I've thought every time I've removed or replaced a wing 

"That wing would twist up in a flash if the bracket or the bolt ever failed" 

I've thought that more than once. Time will tell.if I'am right or wrong. It 

doesn't matter to me what the problem is or whose fault it is ,I just want 

to see it found, and stop this losss  of life....  Joe N101HD 601XL/RAM

---

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 03:26:19PM -0700, Rick Lindstrom wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   So, I'll keep flying my 601 XL, but I will take a bit of extra time during

 the preflight, and check the main and rear spar attachments. I'll also

 take a very close look at all of the attach fasteners to make sure that

 they're not fretting, or torqued properly.


	


How would you do this on preflight? Where would you look, and what would you

do to make the places you're looking at accessible?

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 05:30:45PM -0700, PLAV8R - wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I must agree.  I am not trying to point fingers.  I feel Zodiac has a lot

 of integrity and wants to resolve issues to a somewhat ambiguous set

 circumstances in a diligent manner.  I do hope they get all the support

 from any finding that may develop


	


I've given this a lot of thought. Basically, I've come to the conclusion

that ZAC, Zenair, and AMD all want this resolved badly, and when a

resolution is found, it's in their own interest to make sure the entire

fleet is retrofitted with whatever the fix is found to be. The delay in

releasing the results of the various accidents, and the delay in figuring

out what a fix is, is not good for their business. I'm going back to the AMD

factory next Monday, and will have this very conversation with John Degonia.



In the meantime, I'm going to complete the purchase of N55ZC, and will fly

it conservatively and stay well within its limits. If I happen to draw the

short straw, I will at least have had the opportunity to own and fly my own

aircraft - something I've wanted to do for a long time. Aviation is not

without risks. As I've said here before, all we can do is mitigate them.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

I would expect nothing less from Zenith and Chris. They were outstanding in their sale and support of my 801 kit. Human nature dictates them being very concerned, probably bordering on "freaking out" with all thats happened. I pray for a timely and safe outcome to this matter and still have alot of faith in Zenith Aircraft.... 

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com> wrote:

--> Zenith-List message posted by: Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com>



One more thing, there's a new letter from Chris on the Zenith site:



http://www.zenithair.com/news/index.html



Rick



--

purplemoon99(at)bellsouth
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

I thought the same thing..... What could have caused that???   Joe N101HD

---

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:43 am Post subject: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

The problem as stated above is determining the sequence. Every structure has it's weakest links, and once overstressed it will fail in those areas regardless of the initial cause of the failure. Once the wing starts to go, it will subsequently overstress and fail at its' weakest points until it leaves the aircraft or is in a position in which it is no longer being stresed. Just saying "wow, look at the failure at x" tells you little unless you can determine the sequence. I wish I had an answer, because whether or not you fly an xl, just imagining that happening to any aircraft sends a chill down my spine.

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

Can you tell us which of the incidents was the one seen in radar with the behavior you describe?



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom



 [quote] 	  Quote: 	
		    From: Afterfxllc(at)aol.com

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:25:24 -0400

Subject: Re: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com



   I think that is a bit unfair...  We don't see the details of other planes crashes so we don't know if the wings were on them or not at the time of impact. I know Van's had to retest their wing design because of some wing issues and the test showed the wings were engineered correctly. Just as Zenith has done. I have it on good  authority that one of the 601's was seen on radar ascending and descending 3 to 400 feet just before break up so what does that tell us? The NTSB has no obligation to report or even examine a experimental crash so we get less than great information. Someone from the EAA should get together a team together and study crashes if no one else is doing it to our satisfaction.

  	  Quote: 	
		  This was my point from an earlier posting that no one commented on.  I counted about 240 registered XL's in the US.  4 structural failures equals 1.7%.  That seems quite high to me.  I also looked at the NTSB records for the top LSA's on the market and found zero structural failures and very few fatalities.  Planes just don't break up at that rate. 

	


 

   



   Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

 	  Quote: 	
		  arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Listp://forums.matronics.comblank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	
	


Back to work after baby– how do you know when you’re ready?  [quote][b]

_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

n85ae

Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 403

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: Re: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

If the wing attach was coming loose, or something else, it would not be

unusual to see radar returns +/- a few hundred feet before the breakup.

I don't know if the suggestion is that the pilot was climbing/diving, but

it could well be they were fighting for control before the breakup.



One more comment. Regarding the pic with the hinge with the missing

part. I tested the A4/A5 rivets by making a box out of four piece's of

1"x"4"x.025 6061. Two corners with A4's, an two with solids. I then

used a hydraulic jack to pull the box apart.



In all cases the A4's failed well before the solids, and in all cases the heads popped off. I repeated with A5's with the same results. The steel core 

makes them strong in shear, but once the structure bends they are very

poor in tension.



When I tested with Solids only, The structure itself failed by tearing 

around the rivet heads. The rivets did NOT fail. 



On my 801, I have replace all A4's and A5's on critical assemblies with

solids. Were I building a 601 I'd definetly be attaching hinges with solids.



That's not suggesting that was the failure, however EVEN if the the 

structure detached at impact - the rivets should NOT have failed. The 

metal should have torn away. 



I think the rivet system Zenith uses is basically good, however not for

everything.



Regards,

Jeff

thesumak(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: CH601 Yuba City Photos Link

Larry:

     

    You make some good points in your recent post, but with regard to your statement below, I respectfully disagree.  We have some very bright folks here and we are highly motivated to figure this out.  I have found the recent discussions which have centered around actual pictures of one of the accidents to be useful and for the most part reverent.

    

 

    Bill

    601xl

    do not archive

     

     

    	  Quote: 	
		  Larry said: I really want to leave the debate on what happened here to structural engineers 

who have the training and experience necessary to back up any of their analysis.

	
Plan your next roadtrip with MapQuest.com: America's #1 Mapping Site. 

  [quote][b]

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