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geared drive ls1 engine

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mvultaggio(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: geared drive ls1 engine

Hello, I am a lurker of the list and woudl like to  hear any thoughts on this firewall forward kit being offered.  what are the  issues to be considered?  I saw it at sun n fun and it looks  interesting.

  

 Thanks 

 Mark

   [quote][b]

Ed Anderson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 475

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: geared drive ls1 engine

Mark, no attachments on the engine of  interest.  Do you have a web page or link?

  

 Ed

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: geared drive ls1 engine

It would help to provide a website.  However, I personally would  never

 use a geared engine.  It has to run at a very high RPM and may have  

 significant operational issues.

  

 I would not buy a plane with such an engine so if that sentiment is  widespread

 you would pay dearly if you ever decide to sell or your market would be  

 very small.

  

 Ron Lee

 [quote]   ---

garrys(at)tampabay.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:16 pm Post subject: geared drive ls1 engine

Ron, all Rotax aircraft engines are geared to the  prop.  They have been running successfully for over 20 years and virtually  all LSA planes are using the Rotax 912 "geared" engine.........even Van's  RV12.  What "operational issues" do you refer to?

  

 Garry Stout

 RV7A, Tampa, FL

  

 [quote]   ---

stein(at)steinair.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject: geared drive ls1 engine

Hi  Mark,

  

 For  any product that life/limb/safety depends on I'd ask the following  questions:

  

 1)  What are the performance numbers when installed on the airplane you are  selling/marketing it for - and I'm talking REAL WORLD performance/flight  numbers.  Not "calculated" type numbers?

 2) How  many hours are on your test RV-10 or any aircraft for that matter (since you're  selling and engine package for an RV-10 it must have at least been test  flown)?

 3) Is  your company capitolized enough to handle liability insurance, warranty,  etc..

 4) How  many have been sold, installed and flying on the airframe that you are marketing  it for?

 5)  What are the approzimate total fleet hours for your engine?

 6) Are  the funds/deposits held in escrow in case of a refund or used to fund the  ongoing business....if no escrow is the business funded off of peoples  deposits?

  

 I  don't mean to sound negative because I think Mr.Warren is a brilliant  engineer.  That being said, I really get leery about companies marketing  stuff for airframes which they've done little to no flight testing on.   Next, having been burnt for many thousands of $$'s over the years by well  intentioned and also good engineers, I want to see what kind of financial health  the company is in....especially when someone is charging 10's of thousands of  $$'s for a product and company that literally have zero history.   There have been a lot of alternative engine designers selling the next panacea  of products...some very well funded and some not so well funded.  Note  Thielert just went bankrupt in the past day or two and I'm sure with their many  millions they too thought they were capitolized well  enough......

  

 I do  wish him well and like to see people developing alternative products, but as I  said before I get really nervous when people are already selling something  specifically that has never flown.  Perhaps I sound negative and that's not  my intention.  Those are just serious questions I'd ask any supplier...be  it props, engines, PSRU's , fuel injection systems, ignitions,  etc..

  

 My 2  cents as usual!

  

 Cheers,

 Stein

 [quote]   --

tedd(at)vansairforce.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: geared drive ls1 engine

 	  Quote: 	
		   That being said, I really get leery about companies marketing stuff for

 airframes which they've done little to no flight testing on.


	


You mean like Lycomings on an RV?



Tedd McHenry

Surrey, BC, Canada

DO NOT ARCHIVE

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:58 am Post subject: geared drive ls1 engine

Not exactly true as Van's flight tests their "approved" engines and design the airframe to the known characteristics of said engine.



Michael Sausen

RV-10 #40352



--

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: geared drive ls1 engine

Hardly a viable argument.  I suspect that Vans developed his kit based 

upon a Lycoming.  Lycoming is a proven design...not some vaporware

system.  



If someone want to put their NEW DESIGN that will solve all the worlds

problems in an aircraft and show that it performs as hyped, then the

market will follow.  Until then, I remain skeptical of unproven designs.



Of course anyone is free to put whatever powerplant they wish in their 

aircraft.  



It may have been Stein who listed a lot of questions to ask before you

go down an alternate engine path.  From my recollection, it was a lot

of good questions.



Ron Lee



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

> That being said, I really get leery about companies marketing stuff for

> airframes which they've done little to no flight testing on.

 

 You mean like Lycomings on an RV?

 

 Tedd McHenry

 Surrey, BC, Canada

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

Ollie Washburn

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Central Florida

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: geared drive ls1 engine

If Lycoming is such a proven product why does my friend up the street

have to tear down is eng that is only 2 years old because he may have

a crankshaft that is not up to specs??

Ollie

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Ron Lee <ronlee(at)pcisys.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

  Hardly a viable argument.  I suspect that Vans developed his kit based upon

 a Lycoming.  Lycoming is a proven design...not some vaporware

  system.

  If someone want to put their NEW DESIGN that will solve all the worlds

  problems in an aircraft and show that it performs as hyped, then the

  market will follow.  Until then, I remain skeptical of unproven designs.

  Of course anyone is free to put whatever powerplant they wish in their

 aircraft.

  It may have been Stein who listed a lot of questions to ask before you

  go down an alternate engine path.  From my recollection, it was a lot

  of good questions.

  Ron Lee

 > 

 >

 >

 > > That being said, I really get leery about companies marketing stuff for

 > > airframes which they've done little to no flight testing on.

 > >

 >

 > You mean like Lycomings on an RV?

 >

 > Tedd McHenry

 > Surrey, BC, Canada

 > DO NOT ARCHIVE

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

_________________
Ollie RV6-A & Rans S7S
Central FL

stein(at)steinair.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: geared drive ls1 engine

My questions before were not meant to disparage Mr.Warrens product nor his

company.  From what I have heard he has a very solid reputation and is by

all accounts a brilliant engineer.  It appears that there might even be a

Reno racer compete with a liquid cooled V this year so again I'm not

anti-alternative.



My point in the whole matter is that aside from the technical arguments

there are other real issues to wonder about.  I guess I often wonder why

people are willing to forgoe minimal due diligence on new products at such a

high price?  How many of us would go buy a $20,000 car from a company who

has zero history, zero products, no car that I can test drive, no idea of

reliability, etc..?  On top of that, I kindly ask new companies to let me

know if they have enough financial resources to run their company beyone

customer to customer payments.  Despite anyones best intentions our aviation

market is littered with companies who tried hard, made a good product, but

had no resources to keep the company afloat.  It only takes one little

hiccup to really hurt many small businesses - being one myself I really know

about this!  Just look what happened to Thielert in the past week.



I know all companies and products have to start somewhere so I like to give

people the benefit of the doubt. It wasn't too many years ago we were a 2

person company ourself. It's amazing what pure determination will do, but

it'll only go so far.  My questions were serious ones that I'd ask any

company, regardless of product.   I do wish these guys well because more

options is better for builders all around.  I guess my main curiosity is

that if you are selling a product for an RV-10 (as an example), why wouldn't

you bolt one on a plane, go fly it - for a number of hours, record the data

and THEN sell the product?     If you were to show up at an airshow with

that kind of history and data then even I would be impressed!



To Tedd's weird post about Lycomings, I'm pretty sure neither Van's or

Lycoming offered their product combination for sale before it had been flown

together.  Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't seem to recall Van selling his kit

without ever trying the engine on it, nor do I recall Lycoming trying to

sell the engine for an RV before it had flown on an RV. Perhaps I'm wrong (I

frequently am), but I think both those products had a few hours on the

combination of airframe and engine before being marketed or sold to the

public.



Anyway, I guess it just comes down to each persons choices.  It's none of my

business what you choose to put on or in your plane because that's the

beauty of experimenting and it's each persons individual choice - be it

engines, aiframe, avionics, props, etc...  It's just that over the past

decade a lot of people have lost a lot of money on particularly good

products due to circumstances people might not have forseen.



 	  Quote: 	
		  From a personal perspective I truly do wish Mr.Warren well.  Perhaps he can

and will answer all of the questions I posted and will absolutely cover all
	


his bases.  I have not heard a bad thing about the guy or his products so I

can't come up with anything bad to say.  My comments were mainly aimed at

basic due diligence that any smart consumer would perform when spending that

kind of money. I'm pretty sure some of my customers and/or friends will end

up with his solution, and I'm genuinely interested in how they perform

(which is my whole point here....how do they perform?).  I have customers

and friends with Eggenfellners, Vestas, Volkswagens, Corvairs, Model A's,

Radials, etc..  Each one has their own plusses and minuses, but at least on

a flying airplane I can get real world numbers.



Sorry for the long rant!  I just though that perhaps some people were

thinking I was against the Geared Drive guys or alternative engines....which

of course I'm not.  My original point was that I'd ask that series of

questions to any provider of new components - be it engines, a new airplane

kit, props, avionics, etc..



Cheers,

Stein



[quote]--

tedd(at)vansairforce.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: geared drive ls1 engine

My comment about Lycoming was meant to be light-hearted, obviously.  But I also

meant to make a legitimate point.  What Stein said was, "I really get leery

about companies marketing stuff for airframes which they've done little to no

flight testing on."  That is, of course, exactly what Lycoming did by marketing

their engines through Van's.  No doubt Van's tested them -- they could hardly

not have.  But Lycoming did not.



Fortunately, nobody bothered to trim the thread in their replies, so none of

this drivel is archived.



Tedd McHenry

Surrey, BC, Canada

DO NOT ARCHIVE

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