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Registration questions E-LSA

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dstasch

Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: Registration questions E-LSA

Hello, 



I'm planning to build a 601xl with my son but I'm a little confused about a couple of things that I'm hoping you all can help me to better understand.



Ideally, we would build the plane together then I could use it to teach him how to fly.  



If I understand correctly, to use an LSA as a trainer plane, it must be registered as S-LSA.  However, I believe for it to be S-LSA it must be factory built. (or meet guidelines of the ASTM? can't remember the acronym)  Am I correct on this?  It's not possible (or maybe practical)for us to build an S-LSA in our garage?



What about E-LSA.  I seem to recall reading that an E-LSA can be used to train the owner.  If this is true, perhaps we could be co-owners or I could just put it in his name from the beginning, but I don't think a zero hour 16 year old in a homebuilt aircraft will sound very good to an insurance agent.  Do any of you have a similar situation with perhaps training your spouse or children to fly in an LSA that you can share your experience with me?



Thank you!



Take care,

Dave



DO NOT ARCHIVE

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: Registration questions E-LSA

I believe you can receive instruction in any aircraft you have built,

regardless of its classification. The restrictions are on instruction in

planes for hire. Check with the EAA to be sure.



-- Craig



--

psm(at)ATT.NET
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: Registration questions E-LSA

Hi Dave,



I don't have all the answers you seek, but may be able to help get you started.



First, you can't build an S-LSA.  That has to be factory 

built.  Theoretically you could build an E-LSA, but in practice that 

can't really be done today either since no factories I know of offer 

E-LSA kits.  There is some way to convert an S-LSA to E-LSA, but that 

starts with a factory built plane too.



If you build any plane from a kit, the only way to get it properly 

licensed is using an Experimental-Amateur Built airworthiness 

certificate.  That means it can't be used for hire, but there are 

some ways to allow flight training in an E-AB plane.  I don't know 

the details, but one of the serious restrictions is the instructor 

must agree to teach in the particular plane.  You should talk to a 

couple of instructors (preferably ones you learn about at your local 

EAA chapter who are familiar with this issue) and see what their 

requirements are.  I suspect you will find a need for functional dual 

controls, dual brakes, and other equipment requirements.



About insurance, some more leg work on your part is in order.  My own 

experience is the insurance companies are pretty agreeable to 

insuring Zodiacs, but they want a certain amount of experience by 

each pilot listed to be PIC.  I'm sure any insurance agent can give 

you more information on the specific needs for training a student 

pilot in an E-AB Zodiac.



Good luck,



Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive

At 07:00 PM 4/27/2008, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  If I understand correctly, to use an LSA as a trainer plane, it must 

be registered as S-LSA.  However, I believe for it to be S-LSA it 

must be factory built. (or meet guidelines of the ASTM? can't 

remember the acronym)  Am I correct on this?  It's not possible (or 

maybe practical)for us to build an S-LSA in our garage?

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: Registration questions E-LSA

Your 601XL would have to be registered as an Experimental.



There are two ways an experimental can be used for training, and  

neither probably apply to your situation.



If you are the owner, you can receive training in your own plane.



An Experimental can also be used for transition training.  You must  

get permission from the FAA for this on a case by case basis.   

Transition training means you aren't training for a new certificate,  

just familiarity with the plane.



Also, be aware that there is a 40 hour test flight period where no  

passengers may be carried.  This basically means that if you plan on  

taking lessons in you own plane, you must get someone else to fly it  

for 40 hours before you are permitted to even be a passenger.  After  

the 40 hours "fly off", you my receive training in your own plane.



There is lots of much more authoritative information at eaa.org.



There are a few schools that use the factory build 601xl SLSA where  

it's possible to get training



Ron



On Apr 27, 2008, at 10:00 PM, dstasch wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hello,



 I'm planning to build a 601xl with my son but I'm a little confused  

 about a couple of things that I'm hoping you all can help me to  

 better understand.



 Ideally, we would build the plane together then I could use it to  

 teach him how to fly.



 If I understand correctly, to use an LSA as a trainer plane, it  

 must be registered as S-LSA.  However, I believe for it to be S-LSA  

 it must be factory built. (or meet guidelines of the ASTM? can't  

 remember the acronym)  Am I correct on this?  It's not possible (or  

 maybe practical)for us to build an S-LSA in our garage?



 What about E-LSA.  I seem to recall reading that an E-LSA can be  

 used to train the owner.  If this is true, perhaps we could be co- 

 owners or I could just put it in his name from the beginning, but I  

 don't think a zero hour 16 year old in a homebuilt aircraft will  

 sound very good to an insurance agent.  Do any of you have a  

 similar situation with perhaps training your spouse or children to  

 fly in an LSA that you can share your experience with me?



 Thank you!



 Take care,

 Dave



 DO NOT ARCHIVE





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179732#179732

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: Registration questions E-LSA

If you are building a CH 601 XL, you will have to build it as an  

experimental amateur built. An S-LSA must be factory built and the E- 

LSA option is no longer available for this aircraft since the "fat  

ultralight" exception expired this January. Even though you can't  

register the airplane as any sort of LSA, as long as the aircraft  

falls within the limitations of the LSA rules, it can still be  

operated by a sport pilot under the LSA rules.



You can receive training in an E-AB, you can give training in an E-AB,  

you can pay for instruction in an E-AB, you just can't rent out the  

airplane itself for training. You can receive training in any aircraft  

that you own, regardless of its classification, as long as the  

instructor will agree to train in that aircraft. If you are a CFI, you  

should have no problem teaching your son to fly in your 601 XL. As far  

as insurance goes, I have no idea how that will be handled, it will  

depend on the insurance company. Just tell your son not to crash into  

anything expensive. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 



 Hello,



 I'm planning to build a 601xl with my son but I'm a little confused  

 about a couple of things that I'm hoping you all can help me to  

 better understand.



 Ideally, we would build the plane together then I could use it to  

 teach him how to fly.



 If I understand correctly, to use an LSA as a trainer plane, it must  

 be registered as S-LSA.  However, I believe for it to be S-LSA it  

 must be factory built. (or meet guidelines of the ASTM? can't  

 remember the acronym)  Am I correct on this?  It's not possible (or  

 maybe practical)for us to build an S-LSA in our garage?



 What about E-LSA.  I seem to recall reading that an E-LSA can be  

 used to train the owner.  If this is true, perhaps we could be co- 

 owners or I could just put it in his name from the beginning, but I  

 don't think a zero hour 16 year old in a homebuilt aircraft will  

 sound very good to an insurance agent.  Do any of you have a similar  

 situation with perhaps training your spouse or children to fly in an  

 LSA that you can share your experience with me?




	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

dstasch

Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Registration questions E-LSA

Wow, thank you for all your quick responses!  



There's no question that we want to build, and now that I understand we will be building under the E-AB category, I'll go through and read the regs again.  It should be a little less inundating now that I know what we're building  



I don't have an Instructor rating but I do have the required hours and I don't mind doing the CFI training for the opportunity to teach my son. 



As for the 40 hour test flight period, my plan is (or was if it's not a good plan  to find a 601xl at a nearby school to get acquainted with and do the flight testing myself.  If there's not a 601 available locally, I'm not too from Missouri, so I could go there for some training at Zenith.  



Finally, as for not having my son not crash into anything expensive, I've been working on this with his driver's license for the past six months and every time I look in the mirror, I try to convince myself that the new gray hairs are just a coincidence  



Thanks again, this is a wonderful group!



Take care,

Dave

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:09 am Post subject: Re: Registration questions E-LSA

Pretty cool Dad  



This topic comes up quite a bit, how do we get the EAA to put up better info for first time builder? They have some info, but it is almost as confusing as the FAAs and not very complete. I read the EAAs info forwards and backwards but could not decide what I was building and what I could and couldn't do in it. Finally I emailed the EAA and asked here, took both to get it clear.  

Kevin

_________________
“Always do what you are afraid to do.”
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)

"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009

"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:53 am Post subject: Registration questions E-LSA

If you are both Documented as the builder which you show proof with pictures and the log book,  Have the DAR register you both as builders of the plane, then you can fly the 40 hours off together.



Juan



--

zenith601xl(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: Registration questions E-LSA

No passengers are permitted during the 40 hour test period, even if they are registered as a builder.  Solo only.

  

 Dennis

 On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net (amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net (amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net)>

 

If you are both Documented as the builder which you show proof with pictures and the log book,  Have the DAR register you both as builders of the plane, then you can fly the 40 hours off together.



Juan



--

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: Registration questions E-LSA

I disagree, if you have two builders, and they are documented  as both builders of the plane, you can both fly at the same time.

Juan



--

gfmjr_20(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject: Registration questions E-LSA

The piloting of an experimental during the test phase is not based on who builds the plane. The regs indicate that only required crew may fly during the 40 hours of test.  If it is deemed that both builders are the required crew they might be able to fly together, however, I doubt it.  To be able to have both parties legally fly together as required crew it would need to be signed off by the local FSDO .

  

 George May

 601XL 912s



[quote] Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 17:50:14 -0400

 From: amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com; zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Registration questions E-LSA

 

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net>

 

 I disagree, if you have two builders, and they are documented as both builders of the plane, you can both fly at the same time.

 Juan

 

 --

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: Registration questions E-LSA

I disagree to disagree.  SOLO Only...

Unless the "crew member" is essential for the flight.

---

dstasch

Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 8

Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: Registration questions E-LSA

Perhaps I could put in a single stick for the right seat, and the rudder/brake pedals in the left seat?

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