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True Rotax brand oil filters

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ronlee

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 141

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: True Rotax brand oil filters

Just yesterday I changed oil in my 912uls and installed a (Challenger Rotax 912/914) oil filter. I got these from ACS. I look at my email this morning and find a new service bulletin which says not to use what looks like a picture of the very filter I installed. Now, I don't know if I should remove it and throw it away and change to the true Rotax filter. This is the second Challenger filter I've used. If the bulletin had been a day earlier I would have returned that last one  to ACS.  Any and all opinions are welcome.

Ron Lee

Tucson, AZ

_________________
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters

Hi Ron,



I don't know who makes the Challenger oil filters. If it is the one in the post and it does have the same number I would toss it and forget it. That is an inferior filter.  I typed the number off the oil filter in the Rotax post into the web search and it came up Challenger. The one that Rotax posted in there bulletin is definitely an inferior filter. It has a few things wrong with it all of which Rotax listed in the document. If you want to run a different oil filter other than a Rotax then the Fram Tough Guard 3614 and the Purlator Pure One PL10241 are better filters and maybe better than Rotax. The Pure One for sure. It's a shame Rotax didn't cut these two filters apart to try and make a claim because they wouldn't be able to make the inferior product claim. Toss the Challenger filter it's only a few dollars compared to your engine health and you will only lose a tiny bit of oil. Just top it off again and forget how to spell Challenger.  

p.s.

When are we going flying?

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Rich L

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 63
Location: North Idaho

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:32 am Post subject: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters

As usual I end up with parts I cant use.  Trying to save a buck, I bought 10 Challanger Oil Filters for my 912uls.  The thing that really bothered me was when Rotax said the Challanger allows oil to drain out of the filter.  This means it has to fill up again at every start.  After reading what Roger and Rotax has to say about them, I am going to make a planter out of them.  Sob!



Rich

gfmjr_20(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: True Rotax brand oil filters

Roger--

   Thanks for posting this information. I've been looking for a possible substitue for the Rotax filter. I see you indicated that the construction of these substitutes is the equivalent or better, but can you also give any information on the operating pressure. I believe, that I've read that the Rotax filter has a higher operational pressure requirement than car filters?

  

 Thanks

 George May

 601XL 912s



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters

 From: ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com

 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 16:29:44 -0700

 To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com>

 

 Hi Ron,

 

 I don't know who makes the Challenger oil filters. If it is the one in the post and it does have the same number I would toss it and forget it. That is an inferior filter. I typed the number off the oil filter in the Rotax post into the web search and it came up Challenger. The one that Rotax posted in there bulletin is definitely an inferior filter. It has a few things wrong with it all of which Rotax listed in the document. If you want to run a different oil filter other than a Rotax then the Fram Tough Guard 3614 and the Purlator Pure One PL10241 are better filters and maybe better than Rotax. The Pure One for sure. It's a shame Rotax didn't cut these two filters apart to try and make a claim because they wouldn't be able to make the inferior product claim. Toss the Challenger filter it's only a few dollars compared to your engine health and you will only lose a tiny bit of oil. Just top it off again and forget how to spell Challenger. 

 

 --------

 Roger Lee

 Tucson, Az.

 

 

 

 

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 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177513#177513

 

 

 

 

 

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Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters

Hi Guys,



The Rotax filter bypass pressure is .9-1.1 bar or 13-15.9psi.

The Fram Tough Guard and Pure One filter along with many other American filter bypass pressure is 12-15 psi. Rotax does not want anyone using a filter with a coiled spring in it because it may vibrate right through the filter skin. The Fram and the Pure One as do many other filters use the same type of bypass spring as the Rotax which is a type of springsteel flat spring.

The bypass pressure should only come into play when the upstream pressure becomes at least 12psi different from the downstream pressure at the filter. This should not happen unless you have some serious issues with a clogged filter and if you clog a filter you have some serious engine issues or haven't changed your oil in the last ten years or 1000 hrs. which ever came first.    

The Fram Tough Guard and the Pure One have more filter medium because they are 1/2" longer. The Pure One has a better efficiency rating and three filter mediums and not just one medium like the Rotax or Fram Tough Guard. These two filters will fit a Toyota, too. 

Some say oil filter's actually bypasses at start up. These filters can flow 6 gal. a minute and the Rotax engine circulates about 4 gals a minute when up at normal running rpm's and not at a start up rpm or idle. 

Full synthetic or semi synthetic is very pourable at most of our normal daily temps. I find it hard to believe that at start up when you aren't flowing 4 gals. a minute and there is no pressure restriction that the filters actually bypass oil. I have heard the people say they do, but I'm not a believer.

When I did my research the oil filter engineer's (not the sales reps) said the the one psi difference is not an exact science and that everyones can very a psi, even Rotax's filter.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

docyukon(at)ptcnet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: True Rotax brand oil filters

Rotax must have an 

overstock of filters on hand



---

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters

Rotax doesn't test any other filters because they have their own and all the dealers are supposed to carry them. As far as oils are concerned you can't get some types of oils in the world so they had to test a few other well known types from different areas. They have not bothered and probably won't ever test other filters or many other oils. Some testing with oils could takes years of use to get back reliable data.

I would be willing to bet that the Rotax filter has other applications in Europe. The Champion name on the filter is a European company and not the Champion people in the USA. I doubt that the Rotax filter only works on a Rotax engine, but who knows for sure (ok Rotax really knows). They won't say much about the filters as I have emailed them several times.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

gfmjr_20(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:33 am Post subject: True Rotax brand oil filters

Roger--

 Thanks for the psi explanation. Looks like I'll begin using other than Rotax filters

  

 George May

 601XL 912s

  

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: True Rotax brand oil filters

Roger:  

   

For the most part I agree with your post, except the part about the oil needing to be 1000 hr or ten years old.  When mineral oil gets cold it thickens. This is something to keep in mind regardless of what kind of aircraft engine you are operating in freezing temperatures.  Also the filter is not the only thing you have to watch out for or put a bypass on.  On one occasion in Goose Bay, Labrador a couple of guys flying a couple of Aero-Commanders were over nighting on their way to Europe.  In the thick of the Labrador frost the next morning they were offered a hot start on all four engines (for a reasonable price).  They pooh-poohed the idea and went to start the engines.  They never got to the part where they released the brakes.  All four oil coolers blew and both planes were covered in oil.  Talk about a mess!!!  Luckily there is no EPA at the airport in Goose Bay.  Three days and four coolers and a boatload of dollars later they finally got underway.  Not everyone runs synthetic oil, which in those temperatures can thicken enough to open a bypass, so a good bypass is something to be considered.  Especially if there is a chance you can experience temperatures not that far below the freezing point of water.  When the going really gets rough, operators of piston aircraft actually drain the oil bring it and the battery into the house for the night.  Many even then will have engine compartment heaters to keep the oil from gelling as it is poured back into the plane or have the oil almost boiling hot before putting it back.    

   

Turbine engines, which use synthetic oil, have by pass valves on everything that are also wired to the enunciator panel.   With some engines, in the coldest conditions, the panel will “light up” shortly after starting the engine.  When the engine is up to temp the switches on the bypass valves can be reset.  

   

On the topic of synthetic oils.  They are really slippery,  How slippery?  So slippery they will completely drip off internal engine components removing any protection from corrosion.  It’s hard to recommend this oil to people who don’t run their engines every day.  The long and the short of it is: Synthetic oil is a fantastic thing for some users but will bring only heartache to weekend flyers.  Even on bad flying days the engines with the synthetic oil should be run a few minutes to maintain the protection of the oil.   

   

To take the strain off your oil filter bypass, keep your rpm to a minimum until your engine temps have stabilized.  

   

Noel  

   

--

_________________
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Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:17 am Post subject: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters

Hi Noel,



The ten year or 1000hr. remark was only a joke. Smiley face was attached.    

The other qualifier I added was "normal daily temps." Not the harder cold day temps. in some parts of the country during winter. Synthetic oil is pourable down to -45F. If you are in the 20F range you should never have an issue. If you use the appropriate viscosity oil in the winter months you should not have any issues. Most of us here are flying either Experimental, Amateur built or LSA aircraft and don't have to run dino based oil although regular oil is really not that bad when changed and used properly. Semi synthetic and dino based oils will suspend the lead in 100LL where a full synthetic will let the lead fall out of the oil. The semi synthetics and full synthetics do a much better job of protecting the engine on the extreme sides of the engine run parameters. (i.e. very hot or very cold) In Arizona we don't have so much of the cold as we do the hot. I use synthetic in my cars, but not because of a longer advertised drain interval, but for the better protection while running. 

We will have to disagree on the synthetic oil draining off parts while sitting. I think just the opposite. 

Most of us are old enough on this forum to remember an old Mobile One TV commercial. When they had a test engine and drained all the oil out and then they ran the engine until failure again. It ran a long time after the synthetic was drained. This is an extreme run condition, but kind of shows that synthetics do a good job under the more extreme runs. Regular dino based oil works well too especially as often as we drain it, but I'm a believer in protecting the engine against the more extreme ends of an engine run (i.e. high and low temps).

 This belief is kind of like Chevy's and Ford's, you believe or you don't.

Here is an article:

 

Synthetic oil and synthetic blends

Synthetic lubricants were synthesized, or man-made, in quantity initially as a replacement for mineral lubricants (and fuels) by German scientists in the late 1930s and early 1940s due to a shortage of available crude, principally for the German war machine. A significant factor in its gain in popularity was the ability of synthetic based lubricants to remain fluid at the sub-zero temperatures of the Eastern front during winter, temperatures which caused petroleum based lubricants to solidify due to their higher wax content. The use of synthetic lubricants widened through the 1950s and 1960s due to a property at the other end of the temperature spectrum, the ability to lubricate aviation engines at temperatures that caused mineral based lubricants to break down. In the mid 1970s, synthetic motor oils were formulated and commercially applied for the first time in automotive applications. The same SAE system for designating motor oil viscosity also applies to synthetic oils.



Instead of making motor oil with the conventional petroleum base, "true" synthetic oil base stocks are artificially synthesized. Synthetic oils are derived from either Group III mineral base oils, Group IV, or Group V non-mineral bases. True synthetics include classes of lubricants like synthetic esters as well as "others" like GTL (Methane Gas-to-Liquid) (Group V) and polyalpha-olefins (Group IV), although actual base oil content of finished blended motor oils is not a factor. Higher purity and therefore better property control theoretically means synthetic oil has good mechanical properties at extremes of high and low temperatures. The molecules are made large and "soft" enough to retain good viscosity at higher temperatures, yet branched molecular structures interfere with solidification and therefore allow flow at lower temperatures. Thus, although the viscosity still decreases as temperature increases, these synthetic motor oils have a much improved viscosity index over the traditional petroleum base. Their specially designed properties allow a wider temperature range at higher and lower temperatures and often include a lower pour point. With their improved viscosity index, true synthetic oils need little or no viscosity index improvers, which are the oil components most vulnerable to thermal and mechanical degradation as the oil ages, and thus they do not degrade as quickly as traditional motor oils.

Synthetic lubricants are designed for "long life" extended drain intervals, but most users rarely run them long enough to gain a cost-effective return. If a "synthetic" oil costs 2 to 3 times as much as a conventional oil, it would have to be used for 2 to 3 times longer than a conventional oil just to break even.



Today, synthetic lubricants are available for use in modern automobiles on nearly all lubricated components, allegedly with superior performance and longevity as compared to non-synthetic alternatives. Some tests[citation needed] have shown that fully synthetic oil is superior to conventional oil in many respects, providing better engine protection, performance, and better flow in cold starts than petroleum-based motor oil. These "tests" simply test the parameters of the oil itself and not really how well they work. Synthetics may offer little or no real-world benefit, as witnessed by the millions and millions of cars that lead long lives on plain motor oil. Generally, other components will fail long before the engine dies of an oil-related failure. Lab analysis of the wear metals contained in the used oil show identical or even lower wear with plain dino oils. Consumer Reports attempted[citation needed] to demonstrate the conventional vs synthetic advantages, but chose taxi cabs as a test-bed, which is actually a non-demanding application since the oil stays hot all the time, easily driving off accumulated water and fuels. This "test" in low-performance engines over a less-demanding driving cycle technically proved little about the subject.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Rich L

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 63
Location: North Idaho

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters

And you might want to measure the depth of the Filter before you buy.  the PL10241 didn't quite clear my exhaust manifold on my KF-7. I lacked about 1/4" from getting a straight shot when screwing it on.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: True Rotax brand oil filters

Roger:



I certainly have no argument with the article.  I have used full synthetic

oil in the past when I was travelling over a hundred miles a day and it was

fantastic.  Kept my engine clean as a whistle.  Now the car is parked quite

often and there are days that it doesn't move at all.  For that kind of

operation I want the superior corrosion protection mineral oil gives.  I

knew  guy who used to swear by, not at, putting a half quart of synthetic

oil in his engine a hundred miles or so before an oil change.  He said it

cleaned out all the old sludge.  Personally I'd be too nervous about gumming

up "the works" to try that.



Arizona...  I'd love to live in a place where Snow tires are a distant

legend.  



I know helicopter engineers who have to be on hand every morning in the

arctic winter for start ups.  As I said the panel lights up like a Christmas

tree and the engineers have to be on hand to reset the bypasses and log the

events.  Mind you the temperatures they operate under are well below the 0F

mark.  We seldom see it that cold here.



When I was in my early twenties I was in a road rally.  About 400 mi all day

event and we all went to a bar afterwards to swap lies.  

Well almost all of us.  

At the last checkpoint I found the base pan had been beaten out of the car,

A Renault 10.  Apparently my sister had taken the car the day before to go

to out summer cottage which was at the wrong end of a very poor road.  Her

boyfriend managed to pound the base pan out of the car on their way into the

cottage.  They spent the day there and then drove over forty miles home

again and said nothing to me about this even though they both knew I was

going rallying the next day.  Oh yes on the way home the guy took the light

out of the dash because it was shining in his eyes. 

As close as I can figure the engine had over 500 miles on it with no oil in

the basepan.  This was on regular mineral oil.  The boyfriend went to fix

the car and pounded a wooden plug into the draining hole which was cracked

out.  The wooden pin caused us to burn out two transmission actuators (at)

$200.00 ea ( electric automatic standard ).  Before I found out what he had

done.  Another $100 got us another base pan.  The point is  that little

beastie pulled hard for 500 mi with no oil and it ran well afterward.

 



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters

My CT also lacks the 3/8" to clear the exhaust for the oil filter. My last plane had a different exhaust system and clearance was no problem. 

I believe most engines would run for a while with no oil, it's just how long is the run. I would guess the high compression or tight tolerances might suffer more.

I fully believe use what ever oil you want and it will be ok, just change it when you are supposed to change it along with the filter. This is the life blood of your engine. Engines have been using all kinds of oils for billions of mile now and the life of the engine usually comes down to the better maint. engine. (generally speaking)

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

ronlee

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 141

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: True Rotax brand oil filters

I ended up with the true Rotax brand oil filters made in the UK. Anything else was too long to fit in the space I have on my CH701. They were actually cheaper then the Challenger filters I got from ACS about a year ago. They were the dis-allowed filters by the Rotax service bulletin.

I got the Rotax brand filters from the Rotax dealer, South MS Light Aircraft Inc. 

$15.36 each. Shipping on two of them.$7.86. Nice people there.

Ron Lee

Tucson, AZ

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Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona

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