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craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:48 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Where can you get heat sheilding and rocket motors for a europa though

graham??



But on a slightly more serious note, IF the tanks havent been flourine

treated

would it be possible to apply a coating to the inside of the tank before its

installed, or maybe

sprayed into in-situ tanks that havent been filled yet, such as a

vinyl-ester resin which may

atleast slow the whole process down to give the existing tanks a reasonable

service life



craig



--

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 4:02 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Graham,

I agree wholeheartedly about the alcohol and for all the same reasons.  Turning food into fuel is STOOPID.   But, for better or worse, it has been mandated by the Fed.  Just like MTBE.  Which the oil companies fought tooth & nail because it is one VERY nasty chemical.  Strong carcinogen, long-lived and difficult to remove once it gets into the environment.  Guess what, our wonderful Fed ignored all the arguments and mandated it anyway.  Now we have environmental issues all over the place due to it.  FINALLY, two years ago, the Fed dropped the MTBE mandate.  But, still required an oxygenate be added to gasoline.  That oxygenate is, of course, methanol.  Great for the corn farmer, really really bad for everyone else.

And for Ken,

I have no idea if the tank problems are limited to MoGas.  It may be so, but it will take some input from folks who have only run AvGas in their aircraft to figure out this one.  

Personally, I will only be using AvGas in my Rotax once it is running.  Two reasons.  #1 Alcohol in MoGas, I won't run it in my Rotax.  #2 Difficulty obtaining MoGas at or near airports across the US, better to stick with one type and not worry about it.  I do plan to use Decalin TCP & Marvel Mystery Oil as additives in my AvGas and will change the oil at 25 hour intervals.

Check six,

Bob Borger

On Thursday, May 01, 2008, at 04:34AM, "Graham Singleton" <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

Hi Bob

apreciate your thoughtful reply.

I wish they wouldn't put alcohol in though, It isn't good for engines 

and it is even worse for the environment, takes too much energy to make 

it and it uses up too much food, (imho!)

Simple answer, there are already too many of us on this planet, we need 

to start colonising space!

Graham

Robert Borger wrote:

> 

> 

> Graham,

   According to the Wisconsin State Government, there are over 150 

separate chemical in

> gasoline.  There are detergents, solvents, oxidents, octane increasers  

> and many other things beside C5 - C12 hydrocarbons.  

> Certainly there are no insidious reasons for the oil companies to hide  

> what goes in their gas.  It's just that most folks wouldn't know what   

> 2,4-dimethyl-6-tert-butylphenol or methylcyclopentadienyl manganese  

> tricarbonyl are or what they do in any case.

> Bob Borger

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 4:08 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Europaphiles,



Oops...  Not Methanol (wood alcohol), but Ethanol (grain alcohol) in that previous post.  



Drat, I always get those two mixed up.  Luckily, the yeasties don't get them mixed up so I know my beer will always have The Right Stuff.



Check six,

Bob Borger



On Wednesday, April 30, 2008, at 10:06PM, "Keith Hickling" <keithhickling(at)clear.net.nz> wrote:

[quote]



Thanks for that Bob.



So is the problem of cracks and bulges limited to the use of mogas? Has 

anyone using Avgas had bulges or cracks in the tank? For those of us who 

have not yet had fuel in the tank, would avgas be better?



Keith Hickling,

New Zealand.

---

karelvranken(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 5:09 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

I remember Nigel Charles who refered some years ago to the  augmentation of the fuel capacity in the tank. In the beginning I toppled  at 68 litres and now after 120 hours at 70 litres. Where will it  end?

 Karel Vranken.

 [quote]   ---

sidsel.svein(at)oslo.onli
Guest

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 6:06 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

All,



Some further comments from my acquaintance at the scientific institute:



- A warm tank will swell more than a cold one.  When exposing HDPE (high 

density polyester) to gasoline, the swelling will continue until the 

concentration of gasoline absorbed in the material is in equilibrium with 

the gasoline outside it.  Then the swelling stops.  The equilibrium is 

temperature dependent, i.e. higher temperature leads to higher absorbtion of 

gasoline and hence more swelling.



- Also the chemical resistance of HDPE is temperature dependent.  A typical 

HDPE commonly used in gasoline cans is classed as "resistant" to high octane 

gasoline at 20C (68F), while at a temperature of 60C (140F) it is classed 

"not resistant".



- If the gasoline concentration (liquid or gas form) in the tank is reduced 

to zero, then the gasoline will diffuse from the polymer and into the tank 

atmosphere.  In the ideal material, the swelling might then go back to zero, 

but not in reality.  If the concentration of gasoline in the tank (liquid or 

gas form) is not reduced, the gasoline absorbed in the polymer will not 

diffuse out, and the tank walls will remain swelled.



- His view is that it does not really matter whether our tanks are kept 

topped up or not after each flight, or drained completely for long idle 

period.  Saturated gasoline fume in the tank over the liquid surface keeps 

the swelling at the same stage as when the walls were washed with gasoline.



- So how come some have got cracks?  The absorbtion of gasoline causes 

swelling.  This type of swelling can be compared to stretching of metal - if 

stretched too much, the metal breaks.  Same thing with HDPE that swells - 

swells too much, it breaks.  If local hard buckles develop for some reason, 

this may overstress the material before it otherwise would.  This is 

independent of the softening effect that the gasoline absorption also has on 

HDPE.  Even though it gets softer, it does not take more stretch.  Small 

differences in tank wall thickness or other individual factors may be the 

reason why some have experienced cracks, while most of us have not.



- Having seen the photo of Arnold's tank, he finds the buckling to be more 

than might be expected.  If one could measure the length along the most 

pronounced buckling wave form from side to side, and compare it to the 

original width of the tank, the amount of swelling can be estimated.  If 

this is less than 3 pct, the material is probably resistant to gasoline 

according the European industry norm DIN ISO 175.  If the swelling is more 

than 8 pct, the material most probably is not suitable as its resistance to 

gasoline at the prevailing temperature is limited.  If the temperature has 

been less than 20C (68F), it is not inconceivable that the material in 

Arnold's tank is LDPE (low density polyester), which is not commonly used 

for gasoline containers.  He emphasiszes that he has not studied Arnold's 

tank other than the photo, does not know which material has been used in our 

tanks and does not wish to make any derogatory remarks or comments on the 

Europa tanks.



///////////



We can all make an easy estimate of the swelling of Arnold's tank, by 

forming a paper strip to a similar wave form as his tank's and compare the 

end-to-end distance with the flat paper's length.  Does not take much 

bulging before 8 pct is reached - - - -.



//////////



So where do we go from here?  I am sending this in copy to Roger at EA2004, 

and encourage him to look into this issue with the aim of:



1. ascertaining what type of material is used in the tanks - older and newer 

batches - and how does this compare with industry standards for gasoline 

(mogas/avgas) containers.  Provide this information to the Europa owners. 

This might give us some reassurance that we can continue using the tanks "on 

condition".



2.  irrespective of the findings under 1, initiate a study to come up with a 

replacement tank for those who need one and those who wish to replace 

theirs.  Check with suppliers of industrial containers, with automobile tank 

manufacturers, ask this forum for ideas, present your preliminary findings 

for comments by this forum (after all, we are the ones to fly around with 

it!), test it thoroughly at extreme conditions, ask a fair price and I 

guarantee you that you will sell many.  While you are at it, why not 

increase the height of the cockpit module to more than make up for the tank 

volume lost by having to reduce the tank's width some to get it in (up there 

you get lots of extra volume due to the full fore/aft space being 

available), which also will give us a better angle for the shoulder belts.



Roger, would you kindly give some feedback on this forum as to what your 

plans might be, so that we can rest easy that you will proceed with full 

speed and we don't feel like we have to design our own, individual 

replacement tanks of aluminium, fancy composites or what not, in order to 

continue flying safely over water and across mountains - - - .



Regards,

Svein

LN-SKJ

Gary.Leinberger(at)miller
Guest

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:05 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

I just replaced mine,although I did it before putting in the cockpit

module - it is actually not too bad to do from the bottom and may in

fact be easier from the top - but you do need to cut out the headrests -

and be ready to totally destroy the old tank, and sand out pieces of the

tank that end up "resined" to the rear upright of the cockpit module - a

very sloppy job - the real problem when working from the top, as I see

it - is that you can't  put in the channel or T pieces from the top -

you essentially have to work through the holes for the spars and the

bottom hole for the fuel outlets from the tank -  I was thinking however

that part of the problem in this tank may be that we glass it in too

tightly in a few places and as it moves from expansion, it works the

plastic and we get stress cracks - this was the problem on my first tank

- the stress came from using too much air pressure to test the system -

but at best I only cycled the tank to expansion a few times - so if it

failed then, it isn't too much of leap to suggest that regular expansion

from temperature changes could do the same - especially if the tank is

firmly held by fiberglass in a few places - the corner on the outside

edge below the overhang at top seems to be a particular place to

accumulate stress 



Maybe it would be smarter when replacing a tank to build a shelf below

that the tank sits on and then strap the tank in with enough elastic

slack to allow movement of the tank - yet still have enough strength to

avoid the tank breaking loose in a crash - but the stress cracks I got

from just a few cycles of air pressure really worry me - 



Perhaps some of us could get together and fund the building of a

prototype aluminum (or something else) tank - once we had a design we

could easily reproduce it at much lower cost - I doubt if the factory

could do it because of the nannies in the English  PFA - but we could do

it in the US - I would be more than happy to put a hundred dollars or so

to fund development - I don't know how many of us are worried about this

but 50 builders at $100 each - is  $5000 - would this be enough to do

this? By the way a replacement tank is 110 pounds and shipping is

another 110 pounds - total cost is over $400 - just for the tank - and

maybe 30-50 hours to replace it - so is $100 worth of insurance each to

have a better fix available worth it? I think so - any feedback from

people that know something about the cost of prototyping - I know the

first one is always expensive - but the second one should be a lot

cheaper -  

Gary Leinberger

A237

gleinberger(at)millersville.edu



--

rob(at)hyperion-ef.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

HDPE = High Density PolyEthylene

LDPE = Low Density PolyEthylene



Polyester is an entirely different polymer, (in)famous for its use in those

"leisure suits" of the 1970s.

Best regards,



Rob Housman

Irvine, CA 

Europa XS Tri-Gear

A070

Airframe complete



--

alan(at)kestrel-insurance
Guest

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Hi Gary



Having had to replace a tank and had the heartache of seeing fuel running

out of the bottom of my aircraft TWICE (second time after attempting to

repair the old tank). I am willing to throe my $100 into the pot.

Count me in.



Alan



--

jeff(at)rmmm.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

I don't think there is anyone of us that wouldn't pay a reasonable 

amount to have a future reliable replacement when needed. There are 

dang few aircraft out there that can do what the Europa can do on 4.5 

GPH. Add that to the incredible handling of this design and you can put 

me down for whatever it takes to keep it flying safely.

For you builders questioning your ownership decision from this post... 

DON'T! You can't believe what fun is in store for your efforts.



Regards,



Jeff R.

A258 - N128LJ / Gold Rush 112 hours and enjoying every minute I get to 

fly it!!!!

Gary.Leinberger(at)miller
Guest

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Jeff - I will be at Rough River - maybe we can between now and then get

some estimates on the cost of a prototype and poll others  and then

discuss it at Rough River? 



Gary Leinberger

A237 



--

m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:50 pm Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Craig,



It is certainly possible to have your tank fluorinated before installation,

because it is a post-moulding process.



If you look on the web site of a typical rotational moulding company, e.g.

http://tecni-form.com/faqs12.php#12 you can see the answers to a number of

FAQs, such as Q12:

"Is rotational moulding suitable for manufacturing marine plastic gas

tanks?"

"Rotational moulding is actually a very suitable process for the manufacture

of fuel tanks of all types - including those for marine applications. Both

diesel and petrol tanks are commonly manufactured from either LLDPE (linear

low-density polyethylene), or XLPE (cross-linked polyethylene), and for

diesel applications no further processing is required. 



"In the case of petrol, post moulding fluorination is used to provide the

barrier properties to meet permeation regulations. However, other materials

may be used, either on their own or in conjunction with polyethylene

(normally as an inner layer) to provide enhanced performance, such as

improved heat resistance or barrier properties."



I sent my early tank back to the company that supplied Europa and it was

fluorinated for about 23GBP (plus return carriage) and returned within a few

days, about seven years ago.  I expect any rotational moulding company that

produces petrol tanks would be able to fluorinate yours at a similarly

modest cost, without your having to ship it back to England to the original

manufacturers.



I do not know whether it would be possible to fluorinate a tank in situ.



Regards



Mike



--

Venu Rao

Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 16
Location: Texas

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Count me in for my $100 too!



I might also suggest that we explore increasing this amount if the  

$5,000 is an underestimate. We should run the numbers to see if those  

of us who put up this seed money will get their money back as a  

discount off the new tank design.



I'd like very much to see a solution asap. Knowing heat can compromise  

the tank, I'm not looking forward to a searing Texas Summer. We Texans  

may have to cold store in summer and fly in winter 



Cheers,



Venu Rao

Austin, Texas

Europa mono - A058

Flying-132.5 hours

Builder: James Nelson



On May 1, 2008, at 15:22, Alan Burrows <alan(at)kestrel-insurance.com>  

wrote:



[quote] 

 >



 Hi Gary



 Having had to replace a tank and had the heartache of seeing fuel  

 running

 out of the bottom of my aircraft TWICE (second time after attempting  

 to

 repair the old tank). I am willing to throe my $100 into the pot.

 Count me in.



 Alan



 --

_________________
Venu Rao
Austin, TX
Europa Mono
Builder: Jim Nelson
TTAE 119.1 hrs

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Gary,



Count me in.



Check six,

Bob Borger

Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S

http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL

(90%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch  

system in, landing gear complete, rudder system in with Singleton Mod,  

outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing  

incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in,  baggage bay in. Fuel system  

complete.  Rotax and Airmaster installed.  Mods 62, 66, 70 & 72 done.   

Completed the instrument panel install.   Europa interior kit being  

installed.  Installed windows.  Working in -  25 Electrical, 28 Flaps,  

30 Fuel System, 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Finishing.    

Mostly finishing these days.

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208

Home:  940-497-2123

Cel:  817-992-1117



On May 1, 2008, at 12:02, Gary Leinberger wrote:



[quote] 

 >



 I just replaced mine,although I did it before putting in the cockpit

 module - it is actually not too bad to do from the bottom and may in

 fact be easier from the top - but you do need to cut out the  

 headrests -

 and be ready to totally destroy the old tank, and sand out pieces of  

 the

 tank that end up "resined" to the rear upright of the cockpit module  

 - a

 very sloppy job - the real problem when working from the top, as I see

 it - is that you can't  put in the channel or T pieces from the top -

 you essentially have to work through the holes for the spars and the

 bottom hole for the fuel outlets from the tank -  I was thinking  

 however

 that part of the problem in this tank may be that we glass it in too

 tightly in a few places and as it moves from expansion, it works the

 plastic and we get stress cracks - this was the problem on my first  

 tank

 - the stress came from using too much air pressure to test the  

 system -

 but at best I only cycled the tank to expansion a few times - so if it

 failed then, it isn't too much of leap to suggest that regular  

 expansion

 from temperature changes could do the same - especially if the tank is

 firmly held by fiberglass in a few places - the corner on the outside

 edge below the overhang at top seems to be a particular place to

 accumulate stress



 Maybe it would be smarter when replacing a tank to build a shelf below

 that the tank sits on and then strap the tank in with enough elastic

 slack to allow movement of the tank - yet still have enough strength  

 to

 avoid the tank breaking loose in a crash - but the stress cracks I got

 from just a few cycles of air pressure really worry me -



 Perhaps some of us could get together and fund the building of a

 prototype aluminum (or something else) tank - once we had a design we

 could easily reproduce it at much lower cost - I doubt if the factory

 could do it because of the nannies in the English  PFA - but we  

 could do

 it in the US - I would be more than happy to put a hundred dollars  

 or so

 to fund development - I don't know how many of us are worried about  

 this

 but 50 builders at $100 each - is  $5000 - would this be enough to do

 this? By the way a replacement tank is 110 pounds and shipping is

 another 110 pounds - total cost is over $400 - just for the tank - and

 maybe 30-50 hours to replace it - so is $100 worth of insurance each  

 to

 have a better fix available worth it? I think so - any feedback from

 people that know something about the cost of prototyping - I know the

 first one is always expensive - but the second one should be a lot

 cheaper -

 Gary Leinberger

 A237

 gleinberger(at)millersville.edu



 --

n100rh(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

In case I missed it, has anyone suggested the option of a rubber bladder 

in the existing tank?



Ralph

rk Hallett

Reno, NV



Venu Rao wrote:

[quote] 



 Count me in for my $100 too!



 I might also suggest that we explore increasing this amount if the 

 $5,000 is an underestimate. We should run the numbers to see if those 

 of us who put up this seed money will get their money back as a 

 discount off the new tank design.



 I'd like very much to see a solution asap. Knowing heat can compromise 

 the tank, I'm not looking forward to a searing Texas Summer. We Texans 

 may have to cold store in summer and fly in winter 



 Cheers,



 Venu Rao

 Austin, Texas

 Europa mono - A058

 Flying-132.5 hours

 Builder: James Nelson



 On May 1, 2008, at 15:22, Alan Burrows <alan(at)kestrel-insurance.com> 

 wrote:



> 

> <alan(at)kestrel-insurance.com>

>

> Hi Gary

>

> Having had to replace a tank and had the heartache of seeing fuel 

> running

> out of the bottom of my aircraft TWICE (second time after attempting to

> repair the old tank). I am willing to throe my $100 into the pot.

> Count me in.

>

> Alan

>

> --

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:30 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Thanks mike, I actually spoke to roger at Europa last night, when i was

ordering some bits off him

and asked him about the flourine treatment, and his response was that my kit

#577 had a treated tank

as original, so i guess, I have nothing to worry about or anyone who came

after 577.



Just for the guys thinking about the alloy tank prototype route, you HAVE a

prototype, If you can "Borrow"

one of the original tanks and copy it, Given it is largely flat panels, two

with curves it would be easy to copy

in a light sheet alloy or stainless. I would be happy to loan my tank other

than its installed already, I am sure

others would.



craig



--

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:31 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Just for the guys thinking about the alloy tank prototype route, you HAVE a

prototype, If you can "Borrow"

one of the original tanks and copy it, Given it is largely flat panels, two

with curves it would be easy to copy

in a light sheet alloy or stainless. I would be happy to loan my tank other

than its installed already, I am sure

others would.



craig



--

jan.de.jong(at)xs4all.nl
Guest

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

My tank has not been fitted yet. I think I will fit it, carefully, 

making sure it was fluorinated first. I may have it fluorinated again.

It seems to me that the bracketing according to the manual may be too 

rigid around the tunnel, especially if the brackets get bonded to the 

tank. I understand local swelling differences up to 5% or so should be 

accommodated without inducing the tank to tear.

I am playing with the idea of applying wool felt to all bracket surfaces 

restraining vertical and sideways movement, also avoiding bonding 

between the other bracket surfaces with the tank.

The process would be something like:

1. lay up brackets (3 plies) on tank - one face felt, other face bare; 

no bonding to tank; experiment to achieve good felt-bracket interface - 

felt may need an impermeable layer of something first..

2. install tank by bonding brackets to cockpit (araldite 420)

3. scuff sand and finish brackets (2 x 3 plies, 1 x 1 ply)

I am also playing with the idea of having part of the weight born by the 

fuselage shell (as Ron's foam does I believe). That could be fitted when 

the cockpit is bonded to the canoe.

As mentioned the aileron drive protection could also be made somewhat 

larger.

Comments?



Jan de Jong

#461

nigel_graham(at)btconnect
Guest

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:01 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Craig,



I have been watching this thread develop with interest.

I came to the conclusion a long time ago that I was not happy with the

plastic tank. The theory was great - but the execution left a lot to be

desired.



To cut a long story sideways, I did make a magnesium alloy tank, and used

the opportunity to increase the volume, and include solid state liquid level

sensors in addition to the capacitance fuel probe, proper filters and AN

fittings for alloy fuel pipes.



Don't be under any illusions over how long this will take. All in all this

set me back about 18 months of careful planning, pattern making and cutting.

All edges were flanged and riveted to hold everything in precise place prior

to welding. The conical fuselage section requires some interesting

developments that are nowhere near a simple as they look.

Admittedly, mine is more complex than you will most likely need, as I

extended up into the headrests to increase volume (on the C of G).



FYI take a look at the attached document I provided to our PFA to secure

approval. It gives you a good idea of what the finished alloy tank might

look like. Hopefully you can get a neater welder 

My tank looked wonderful before  welding. I could have cried when I received

back the crumpled results.



Nigel (the other one) Graham



--

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Gary.Leinberger(at)miller
Guest

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:10 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

That was my thought - I have kept my old tank to use as a way to model

our needs for an aluminum tank - any body have experience in this area?

Any estimates on weight of tank?

Gary Leinberger

A237



--

jeffrey-j-paris(at)excite
Guest

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:17 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Dear Europa List,



I have been keenly reading about this tank problem.  I picked up Kit#A012 a year ago aka a monowheel classic from a man who bought the kit in 1996 and didn't get very far.  It just so happens that I was in the middle of "soaking" my tank in fuel to get it to swell before I mount it in the cockpit module.  All I can say is good timing and I'm all ears at this point in time to see what is the best course of action to stop thje "battle of the bulge."



Would this be a possibility?  I was researching an epoxy based fuel tank liner kit that you mix and slosh around the inside of your tank, in addition to supporting the tank as evenly and thoroughly as possible. My line of reasoning  is that maybe it would be a first line of defense from the solvents that "soften" the HDPE.  My only concern is the possibility of this liner material might flake off because of the "plastic" nature of the tank.  Tghe vendor of this epoxy suggest that you fill the tank with dry wall screws and shake the hell out of the tank to key up the inside of the tank for the epoxy coating.  I'd be interested to see what ideas in terms of BRAINSTORMING this challenge might illicit.



Cheers,



Jeff Paris  #A012 700 hours into build

Europa Classic Monowheel



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