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Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.
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Gary.Leinberger(at)miller
Guest

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Nigel - this is beautiful - what is the cost of building another one? Do

you have more detailed plans?



Gary Leinberger

A237 



--

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Nigel,



WOW!  A magnificent piece of work!



Check six,

Bob Borger

Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S

http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL

(95% done 95% to go) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module  

installed, pitch system in, landing gear complete, rudder system in  

with Singleton Mod, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap  

pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in,  baggage bay  

in. Fuel system complete.  Rotax and Airmaster installed.  Mods 62,  

66, 70 & 72 done.  Completed the instrument panel install.   Europa  

interior kit being installed.  Installed windows.  Working in -  25  

Electrical, 28 Flaps, 30 Fuel System, 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35  

Doors, 37 Finishing.   Mostly finishing these days.

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208

Home:  940-497-2123

Cel:  817-992-1117



On May 2, 2008, at 8:56, Nigel Graham wrote:



[quote] Craig,



 I have been watching this thread develop with interest.

 I came to the conclusion a long time ago that I was not happy with the

 plastic tank. The theory was great - but the execution left a lot to  

 be

 desired.



 To cut a long story sideways, I did make a magnesium alloy tank, and  

 used

 the opportunity to increase the volume, and include solid state  

 liquid level

 sensors in addition to the capacitance fuel probe, proper filters  

 and AN

 fittings for alloy fuel pipes.



 Don't be under any illusions over how long this will take. All in  

 all this

 set me back about 18 months of careful planning, pattern making and  

 cutting.

 All edges were flanged and riveted to hold everything in precise  

 place prior

 to welding. The conical fuselage section requires some interesting

 developments that are nowhere near a simple as they look.

 Admittedly, mine is more complex than you will most likely need, as I

 extended up into the headrests to increase volume (on the C of G).



 FYI take a look at the attached document I provided to our PFA to  

 secure

 approval. It gives you a good idea of what the finished alloy tank  

 might

 look like. Hopefully you can get a neater welder 

 My tank looked wonderful before  welding. I could have cried when I  

 received

 back the crumpled results.



 Nigel (the other one) Graham



 --

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:50 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Hi Jan



"As mentioned the aileron drive protection could also be made somewhat

larger. Comments?"



Just a note:

I remember reading years ago a few who had tank bulge and hit aileron

cross tube, just moved the cross tube from aft of arms to forward.



As far as the aft tank supporting brackets, "dang" they are supporting up

to 18 gallons of fuel and weight of tank (over a hundred pounds of

cantilevered weight). Besides the expanding and contracting evil, you have

a severe stress riser here if you follow manual. If my CPM was not bonded

in place, I would not have made all layers of BID end at the same place

but instead taper layer on the tank where first layer if longest and

subsequent layers are shorter. The tunnel bracket is a vulnerable area.

The extra BID I added will not relieve any cantilever loading or 

expansion loading in the center, but will distribute load over a larger

area. Distributing loads over a "larger area is a "much more better"

thing. I would rather have my 300 lb passenger wearing flat sole foot

apparel than spike heels which will most likely go right through the floor

of Europa. Foam distributes fuel tank cantilever load (I put Mylar in

there so foam is not bonded to tank and will allow expansion). I mentioned

on the gallery that there was no bulge after foam was applied. I was not

referring to the tank but the bottom of the fuse. The high expansion foam

may very possibly deform it. I think the foam will alleviate a lot of

cantilevered stress on the aft BID brackets.



A note on building a metal tank. First off I have seen at least 1 picture,

perhaps 2 that are existing. First choice is to source to ones who already

developed. If can't have them build one more, pick their brains how they

did it. If you can't find pictures or who has them in hangar I have info.

If that comes to a dead end, an idea:

I have a metal melting machine and several chip making machines (Hobart

TRT 250 TIG, 2 laths and 2 milling machines). I welded up a thin wall

aluminium tank for a Sonerai. I purged inside of tank with argon and it

looked great. There was 1 spot in a corner that had a pit of

contamination, easy to file and re-weld. 



Now for plan. Someone get hold of weldable aluminium, remember that when

you weld aluminium it goes to T-0, which means it will be soft as

aluminium a soda can is made from. After it sits depending on the

aluminium used, generally it will get harder perhaps to T-3. I am not an

expert and it has been years since I welded up an alumimium folding

balloon basket, but strength does increase with time. Thus someone find

out what type of aluminium is used in a Sonerai and other welded aeroplane

tanks and buy some. Now design up a nice square cornered 5 gallon

container and cut the pieces. File or sand the edges so were the weld is

going there is a 90 degree bevel. Don't make the bevel (22.5 degrees each

side) to form a sharp edge, but bevel only about 2/3rds of thickness. Make

sure you clean aluminium everywhere and of area to be welded, meticulous

and scotchbright 1" on both sides, then wipe down with degreaser. Now

assemble tank with dabs of JB Weld KWIK (4 minute). Oh yea before

assembly, choose a nice weldable opening and cap. Look at aeroplane stuff

in Spruce and Wicks and www.mcmaster.com . I will leave this detail to

you. For an air vent, buy a petcock that Spruce (and probably Wicks) sells

where you drill a hole, insert a grommet and then force petcock in place. 



My charge will be that after I send the tank around for critique, I get to

keep it. 



For a more aggressive first try, and my preference, make an aux tank for

the port side of mono! Same charge applies.



If all is a go, make the real deal. Same charge applies.



I have had great success hacking up old fork lift Worthington propane

cylinders, cutting them in half, extending and beefing up dip tube and

melting them together. All still in service since early 90s. A lot easier

to keep Europas liquid energy contained compared to a balloons liquid

energy.



My charge can be negotiated, if someone delivered bits and pieces and

helped weld thing up (day to 3??), and helped a bit on my build........



Ron Parigoris

nigel_graham(at)btconnect
Guest

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:04 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Gary,



I just looked back through my records, it seems I spent ?120 ($240 today) on

two sheets of Magnesium alloy (though I only needed one).

I paid the welder ?150 ($300 today).

I had some 3/8" tubing (for the internal breathers) "in stock", and turned

up the fuel hose nozzle, filter housings and all other fittings from stock

material.

The lowest cost was my 18 months labour!!!



I don't have anything as sophisticated as "plans" though I do have a

cupboard full of carefully cut and numbered cardboard templates.



Nigel



--

Paul Boulet

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 57
Location: Malibu, California

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Beautiful tank Nigel.  Now if I could just get one without going thru the pain you went thru....sigh

  Paul Boulet, N914PG- Trigear XS with 914 intercooled engine

  Malibu, CA



Nigel Graham <nigel_graham(at)btconnect.com> wrote:

  [quote]Craig,



I have been watching this thread develop with interest.

I came to the conclusion a long time ago that I was not happy with the

plastic tank. The theory was great - but the execution left a lot to be

desired.



To cut a long story sideways, I did make a magnesium alloy tank, and used

the opportunity to increase the volume, and include solid state liquid level

sensors in addition to the capacitance fuel probe, proper filters and AN

fittings for alloy fuel pipes.



Don't be under any illusions over how long this will take. All in all this

set me back  about 18 months of careful planning, pattern making and cutting.

All edges were flanged and riveted to hold everything in precise place prior

to welding. The conical fuselage section requires some interesting

developments that are nowhere near a simple as they look.

Admittedly, mine is more complex than you will most likely need, as I

extended up into the headrests to increase volume (on the C of G).



FYI take a look at the attached document I provided to our PFA to secure

approval. It gives you a good idea of what the finished alloy tank might

look like. Hopefully you can get a neater welder 

My tank looked wonderful before welding. I could have cried when I received

back the crumpled results.



Nigel (the other one) Graham



--

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Can anyone tell me the process for putting the top of the CM back on once you have taken out the old tank and put in the new one?  I am assuming that you cut the top off very carefully and then glass it back.  How many plies/orientation is recommended?  

Will   

     

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Boulet

 Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 13:02

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.  

  

     

Beautiful tank Nigel.  Now if I could just get one without going thru the pain you went thru....sigh  

    

Paul Boulet, N914PG- Trigear XS with 914 intercooled engine  

    

Malibu, CA

 

 Nigel Graham <nigel_graham(at)btconnect.com> wrote:  

  [quote]  

Craig,

 

 I have been watching this thread develop with interest.

 I came to the conclusion a long time ago that I was not happy with the

 plastic tank. The theory was great - but the execution left a lot to be

 desired.

 

 To cut a long story sideways, I did make a magnesium alloy tank, and used

 the opportunity to increase the volume, and include solid state liquid level

 sensors in addition to the capacitance fuel probe, proper filters and AN

 fittings for alloy fuel pipes.

 

 Don't be under any illusions over how long this will take. All in all this

 set me back about 18 months of careful planning, pattern making and cutting.

 All edges were flanged and riveted to hold everything in precise place prior

 to welding. The conical fuselage section requires some interesting

 developments that are nowhere near a simple as they look.

 Admittedly, mine is more complex than you will most likely need, as I

 extended up into the headrests to increase volume (on the C of G).

 

 FYI take a look at the attached document I provided to our PFA to secure

 approval. It gives you a good idea of what the finished alloy tank might

 look like. Hopefully you can get a neater welder 

 My tank looked wonderful before welding. I could have cried when I received

 back the crumpled results.

 

 Nigel (the other one) Graham

 

 

 

 

 

 --

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

I've been lookin about for tank scraps from opening of drain holes etc. 

w/ the idea of sending a chunk to a lab for analysis re: fluoride 

treatment. Though I've a box of misc. cuttings and bits, somehow my 

tank scraps got tossed.



If by any chance, someone kept theirs and have a kit number close to 

A194 please contact me off list.



Thanks,



Fred

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craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

thats a great job, few wrinkles from the welding heat but hey it wont effect

the performance, the extra

capacity is good, my measurements indicated that an increase of about 27

litres was possible

but i didnt fill in the tunnel as you have, or included head rests, just

curious, how do you

vent the head rests to allow them to fill fully, I didnt see any holes there

other than the

one for the fuel sender.



craig



--

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Hi! Ralf 

No one has commented ?  Personally I thought it a good suggestion,

however the connections would be a challenge ? Still it was good enough

for Concord.

Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG



--

ami(at)mcfadyean.freeserv
Guest

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 12:32 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

How would you get it into the tank?



Duncan McF

do not archive

---

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:32 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Same as they run in most race cars, one problem I can see is that they still

havnt worked out the logistics

of a fuel sender as far as i am aware, so you would be stuck with the sight

glass level I guess, also from what

I have seen, you would be basically creating a new tank plus bladder, so

wouldnt the alloy tank be simpler

and cheaper. Other than that, it would probably be the overall best option,

if it is a proper fuel cell, then fuel surge

and vapours are virtually eliminated



craig



--

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:43 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Hi! Duncan

Obviously there are some challenges, however Getting it in through the

oval fuel sender cut out in the tank op wouldn't be a problem.

Bob H G-PTAG

PS the major problem would be getting acceptance from the LAA !



--

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Yes i know thanks, I was referring to the logistics of fitting a fuel sender

to a tank

with a bladder in it. Which to my knowledge even top level motorsport teams

still

havn't managed to do. I have a capacitance probe in my tank, but thankyou.



craig



do not archive



--

jrgowing(at)bigpond.net.a
Guest

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Craig

 Tony Krzyzewski's site mayh interest you if you have never looked at 

it.....



Electronic Fuel gauge fitted. Builder developed modification



Don't quite know what you were thinking but if I were confident in wiring I 

think this gauge would be good - IF YOUR TANK WAS A REGULAR SHAPE! But you 

don't actually see the fuel level.



Anyway I must make time to go over his site myself for a good look.



Best Wishes

JR



---

n100rh(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

If I've remember correctly auto racing safety tanks use a rubber 

bladder. I will check Simpson et al and see if it is possible to have a 

custom bladder made to fit inside our existing plastic tank. If I loose 

some useful volume, I really don't care.



Ralph



Robert C Harrison wrote:

[quote] 



 Hi! Ralf 

 No one has commented ?  Personally I thought it a good suggestion,

 however the connections would be a challenge ? Still it was good enough

 for Concord.

 Regards

 Bob Harrison G-PTAG



 --

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

I think Tony's fuel gauge could be callibrated for any shape tank. Paul?

Graham



JR Gowing wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Craig

 Tony Krzyzewski's site mayh interest you if you have never looked at 

 it.....

 

 Electronic Fuel gauge fitted. Builder developed modification

 

 Don't quite know what you were thinking but if I were confident in 

 wiring I think this gauge would be good - IF YOUR TANK WAS A REGULAR 

 SHAPE! But you don't actually see the fuel level.

 

 Anyway I must make time to go over his site myself for a good look.

 

 Best Wishes

 JR

 

 ---

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 5:45 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Hi All,



Yes to Grahams point, the fuel gauge system that Tony designed

calibrates to any shape.  For those who aren't aware of Tony's gauge

system it works by weighing the contents of the fuel tank.  It uses a

sensor in the lowest point of the tank which is connected to an

analogue to digital converter.  A microprocessor uses a set of look up

tables that you create during the calibration processes to compensate

for the tank shape.  The output can be either a 10 segment bar graph

or a signal to drive a conventional analogue meter.



Although not as simple, this system gets around the issues associated

with sight gauges, and IMHO, is far superior to any capacitance or

float system



I have had mine in place since May 2004 and it has worked faultlessly.

Paul

 	  Quote: 	
		   <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com>



  I think Tony's fuel gauge could be callibrated for any shape tank. Paul?

  Graham

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 8:23 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

Here's an article I found informative on this topic.



http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9607/Alvarado-9607.html#ToC7

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Venu Rao

Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 16
Location: Texas

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

A friend who used to race shared this company's name. 

They're apparently the gold standard for fuel cell bladders 

in the racing world.

http://www.atlinc.com/racing.html



He also suggested that most rubber bladder tanks have 

2 major drawbacks:

1/ 5 year lifespan

2/ Temp variance effecting fuel capacity (range typically is 30ºF to 120ºF (0º to 50ºC)

I've also attached a .pdf which includes a "Product Safety Bulletin" section.



Rather keen to get this issue resolved!

BladderTanks.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

BladderTanks.pdf

Filesize:

425.95 KB

Downloaded:

434 Time(s)

_________________
Venu Rao
Austin, TX
Europa Mono
Builder: Jim Nelson
TTAE 119.1 hrs

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: Fuel tank - bulges and leakage.

On Thursday, May 1, 2008, at 13:22 US/Pacific, Alan Burrows wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Having had to replace a tank and had the heartache of seeing fuel 

 running

 out of the bottom of my aircraft TWICE (second time after attempting to

 repair the old tank).


	


Alan,



Could you elaborate on the products and techniques used in your 

attempts to repair the old tank?



I apologize for asking you to open old wounds, but your accounts may 

allow us to focus better on finding something that just might work.



No doubt folks will tend towards solutions which address the situation 

in which they find themselves. For some, a metal tank will be the 

obvious solution. For someone w/ a bulging but no signs of a leak, 

another strategy may be persuasive. For myself, w/ an empty tank 

installed which has yet to smell any fuel, I'm looking hard for a "fill 

and drain" agent which I can slosh around the tank interior which will 

provide an impervious coating to keep fuel out of the HDPE and hence 

eliminate the tank expansion as fuel would be otherwise absorbed.



Because of the widespread use of HDPE tanks in the automobile industry, 

and the relatively rapid evolution of  both HDPE and fuel formulations, 

my hunch is that there are hundreds of thousands of HDPE tanks which 

are vulnerable to current and future fuel blends. If that is so, there 

will be huge need and market for precisely what I'm looking for.



Cheers...as they say, "better living (and flying) thru chemistry"



Fred

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