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wild.blue(at)verizon.net
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 Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: L/D again |
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Budd--
You may not remember--be surprised if you did--but I flew with you a couple
of times maybe eight or ten years ago while I was visiting Phoenix one
winter--you had the M-14 in your hangar then. I'd never flown a Pitts,
wanted to do inverted and flat spins. We mostly shot landings and then you
sent me to Sonny Weller to do spins. Lots of fun. Then I read your story
about re-building your airplane (which you did shortly after we'd flown
together) and all the busted wood...ouch!
Anyway, I remember your engine failure(s) story and had fun doing VERY steep
slipping power-off approaches, but thought then, as I do now, that engine
failures in the pattern are no more likely than en route, except maybe on
first power reduction, so take your time about that and good luck on making
that 180, yes at 45 degrees bank. Maybe rope-break 180's at 200 feet are no
sweat in a glider, but they'll kill you in an airplane, any airplane.
Practice emergencies can be a good thing, but as I said to a student
yesterday as we watched an Apache do an engine-cut
shortly-after-breaking-ground climbout, sometimes practice can turn into the
real thing. Jab that jerk in the kidneys and tell him to keep his goddamned
hands off the controls until you're good and ready and not at 20 feet AGL
barely Vmc, thank you very much, simulated engine repair. I've had a few
exciting moments teaching engine-outs myself and was pleased as punch when
the feds decided maybe low-altitude power cuts at Vmc wasn't such a smart
thing to do. Lots of us Twin Comanche instructors and students and DPE's
were getting killed thinking they'd be pussycats like Apaches. But I
digress.
The manhole cover approach throws in a few semi-emergencies of its own, such
as giving you very little room for error on the slip recovery and runway
line-up. I much prefer a more normal, power-on (but still close-in), curved
or base and final approach with a little "peekaboo" let's-see-where-we
re-going-slip on final in any can't-see-where-you're-going airplane. Do you
(or anyone else) make steep, power-off, steep, slipping approaches SOP in
multi-engine airplanes? They're more subject to engine failures than
singles and lot more dangerous. Teaching primary students in a 172 is
interesting because they glide so well that even power-off you wind up
making a 747 approach, so might as well keep the power on (or off) and use
the flaps, even if the flight path is exactly the same. Granted, a 172 ain
t a Pitts ain't a T-6 ain't a Yak ain't a Lear, and L/D is a function of
many factors. Teaching folks how manipulate all of them at will to provide
desired performance and flight path makes a lot more sense to me than just
practicing engine-outs.
As always, there is lots of lamenting piloting skills and flight training
standards, but when most new and lots of "high-time" 500 hr. CFI's have
never flown anything but 172's and don't even know what a J-3 is, what do
you expect? Glass panels, IFR, FITS, 35-hour 141 programs, 20-hour LSP etc
are all wonderful things but ain't no substitute for basic airmanship.
Formation flying and aerobatics may be the best things ever happened to
flight training, mostly thanks to Yaks and RV's so far as I can tell. I don
t mean competition aerobatics, I mean sedate simple stuff. Precision
airmanship in all attitudes, airspeeds and configurations is what is
required. "My instructor told me" ain't airmanship and unfortunately the
scope of scenarios just keeps getting more and more complex. Nobody ever
learned to fly in 20 hours, or 35 or 40 or even 70 (though a much more
realistic figure).
Learn to control the airplane precisely under a variety of circumstances,
L/D configurations, speeds etc and emergencies will take care of themselves,
at the home drome, over mountains, desert or water. Yes, engine-out
practice helps, but most accidents happen while making plenty of power.
Let's be careful out there. Got a student waiting--gotta go.
Jerry Painter
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buddairbum(at)cox.net
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: L/D again |
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See my notes in the body of your e-mail.
On 5/3/08 11:42 AM, "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue(at)verizon.net> wrote:
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Jerry Painter" <wild.blue(at)verizon.net>
>
> Budd--
>
> You may not remember--be surprised if you did--but I flew with you a couple
> of times maybe eight or ten years ago while I was visiting Phoenix one
> winter--you had the M-14 in your hangar then. I'd never flown a Pitts,
> wanted to do inverted and flat spins. We mostly shot landings and then you
> sent me to Sonny Weller to do spins. Lots of fun. Then I read your story
> about re-building your airplane (which you did shortly after we'd flown
> together) and all the busted wood...ouch!
Actually, I remember flying with you quite well.
>
> Anyway, I remember your engine failure(s) story and had fun doing VERY steep
> slipping power-off approaches, but thought then, as I do now, that engine
> failures in the pattern are no more likely than en route, except maybe on
> first power reduction, so take your time about that and good luck on making
> that 180, yes at 45 degrees bank. Maybe rope-break 180's at 200 feet are no
> sweat in a glider, but they'll kill you in an airplane, any airplane.
> Practice emergencies can be a good thing, but as I said to a student
> yesterday as we watched an Apache do an engine-cut
> shortly-after-breaking-ground climbout, sometimes practice can turn into the
> real thing. Jab that jerk in the kidneys and tell him to keep his goddamned
> hands off the controls until you're good and ready and not at 20 feet AGL
> barely Vmc, thank you very much, simulated engine repair. I've had a few
> exciting moments teaching engine-outs myself and was pleased as punch when
> the feds decided maybe low-altitude power cuts at Vmc wasn't such a smart
> thing to do. Lots of us Twin Comanche instructors and students and DPE's
> were getting killed thinking they'd be pussycats like Apaches. But I
> digress.
You missed the point I was making: we're not training for failures in the pattern. We're training for engine loss anywhere in the air. If you loose an engine anywhere, on cross country, etc., and you've been doing nothing but power on landings, then the last part of that particular episode will be an experiment on your part because you don't have your power-off visual references firmly in mind. If you're at 5,000 feet and the engine packs up, then everything from that point on, should be an exercise in trying to get the airplane down to a "normal" point adjacent to a viable landing spot and the rest will be a normal power off landing. I strive to make the last 300-400 feet of every approach identical so there is a "bubble" of the end of the most viable landing spot in which you'll be in a known landing configuration, including speed, height, etc. AND you know you're going to make the field because your previous experience with power on approaches has given you that judgment.
>
> The manhole cover approach throws in a few semi-emergencies of its own, such
> as giving you very little room for error on the slip recovery and runway
> line-up.
If that's what you're experiencing, then you didn't pick up on what we were doing in the Pitts. The approach includes a huge amount of ability to fine tune the touchdown point because you're NOT pushing the approach to the limits in terms of either height or line-up time. After you've seen it a few times, you realize it just "looks" fast, but actually gives plenty of time. And, we don't do it on every single landing. Operating off of what is supposed to be the busiest single runway airport in the nation (according to the Scottsdale PR people) means that less than 30% of our landings are power off.
I much prefer a more normal, power-on (but still close-in), curved
> or base and final approach with a little "peekaboo" let's-see-where-we
> re-going-slip on final in any can't-see-where-you're-going airplane.
The slip isn't there to give visibility. Visibility comes from the offset geometry of the approach which is apropos for blind airplanes only (doesn't apply to CJs, etc). The sole purpose of the slip is to fine tune the glideslope to the touchdown point from a point on final when there is absolutely no doubt you're going to make the runway or the emergency touchdown point. The purpose of doing enough power off approaches to be comfortable with them is to know where the I'm-guaranteed-to-make-it point is. If power-on approaches are habitually used, the pilot doesn't know exactly how to orchestrate his arrival at that point, if the engine quits.
Do you
> (or anyone else) make steep, power-off, steep, slipping approaches SOP in
> multi-engine airplanes? They're more subject to engine failures than
> singles and lot more dangerous.
Go back to my original e-mail: I said power-off in airplanes which can be landed power off. Although, in theory every airplane can be landed power off (that's why every military pilot knows the "high key" of every airplane he flies), for some, the combination of weight, engine type, etc., makes power-off landings inadvisable. All of my discussions are limited to light aircraft and the occasional power-off landing in aircraft like CJ's, etc.
Teaching primary students in a 172 is
> interesting because they glide so well that even power-off you wind up
> making a 747 approach, so might as well keep the power on (or off) and use
> the flaps, even if the flight path is exactly the same. Granted, a 172 ain
> t a Pitts ain't a T-6 ain't a Yak ain't a Lear, and L/D is a function of
> many factors. Teaching folks how manipulate all of them at will to provide
> desired performance and flight path makes a lot more sense to me than just
> practicing engine-outs.
I didn't say "just" practicing engine outs. I said doing them enough that you develop the references. It's just another tool in the pilot's tool box, just as every approach isn't slipped. It's just a fine tuning tool used to put an airplane right on the point, when it's needed. And I agree, a pilot needs to know all the possible ways to put an airplane exactly where it needs to go in all conditions. Including with and without an engine. Now, stand on the end of the runway and count the number of 172s you see land that don't use power during the approach. If you need more than one or two fingers, I'll be surprised. For two to four hours a day I'm watching them and the good part about most of their approaches is that if they do manage to have an engine failure, they won't shut the airport down because they'll be so far off of airport property.
>
> As always, there is lots of lamenting piloting skills and flight training
> standards, but when most new and lots of "high-time" 500 hr. CFI's have
> never flown anything but 172's and don't even know what a J-3 is, what do
> you expect? Glass panels, IFR, FITS, 35-hour 141 programs, 20-hour LSP etc
> are all wonderful things but ain't no substitute for basic airmanship.
> Formation flying and aerobatics may be the best things ever happened to
> flight training, mostly thanks to Yaks and RV's so far as I can tell. I don
> t mean competition aerobatics, I mean sedate simple stuff. Precision
> airmanship in all attitudes, airspeeds and configurations is what is
> required. "My instructor told me" ain't airmanship and unfortunately the
> scope of scenarios just keeps getting more and more complex. Nobody ever
> learned to fly in 20 hours, or 35 or 40 or even 70 (though a much more
> realistic figure).
>
> Learn to control the airplane precisely under a variety of circumstances,
> L/D configurations, speeds etc and emergencies will take care of themselves,
> at the home drome, over mountains, desert or water. Yes, engine-out
> practice helps, but most accidents happen while making plenty of power.
>
I agree with the entire last paragraph.
> Let's be careful out there. Got a student waiting--gotta go.
>
> Jerry Painter
>
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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: L/D again |
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On May 3, 2008, at 11:42 AM, Jerry Painter wrote:
| Quote: |
<wild.blue(at)verizon.net>
Budd--
|
You think like me. You just don't piss other people off as much as I
do doing it. 
Amen to everything you said.
--
Brian Lloyd 3191 Western Drive
brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com Cameron Park, CA 95682
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
PGP key ID: 12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0 CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C
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buddairbum(at)cox.net
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: L/D again |
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Brian, you can't even hold a feather.....
Mark Bitterlich
--
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