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Arty Trost
Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Sandy, Oregon
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 Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: 100LL long term vs. alkie |
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Lucien -
I'd like to share this info (alkie less harmful than
the lead in 100LL) with my club. Can you either
summarize the reasoning from the Titan list, or tell
me how to access the thread on that list?
Thanks -
Arty Trost
Maxair Drifter
Sandy, Oregon
--- lucien <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
<lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com>
Ok, the consensus I'm getting over on the titan list
is that the alkie is less harmful than the lead in
100LL - the reverse of what I thought. Also, that
the alki containing gas appears to be ok out in the
field, as long as the usual precautions are taken
against water contamination, etc.
That's exactly the info I was looking for...... So
I'll just run the alki containing stuff when it
finally shows up here.
As for the oil, I know slightly more about that than
gas, which I know next to nothing about 
I follow the listing of recommended oils in the
Rotax bulletin, even tho the brands/formulas they
list are the European versions (the US versions of
some of these have a different formulation, tho who
knows which of them do).
After that, I follow the service grade and weight
requirements. The manual says an API spec of SF or
SG so I make sure the stuff I use at least meets
that grade.
For what it's worth, most of the automotive oils
around these days meet API SL/SM, which exceeds the
specs of most motorcycle oils I've seen (they're
usually SG. later API specs are all backwards
compatible and the later ones meet more stringent
standards as well), so they're probably actually
better lubricants.
If an oil is on the not recommended list from Rotax,
I don't use it no matter what grade it is
Right now I run the valvoline durablend
semi-synthetic at 10W40 weight, API service grade
SM.
LS
--------
LS
FS II
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=180759#180759
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lucien
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: Re: 100LL long term vs. alkie |
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| Arty Trost wrote: | Lucien -
I'd like to share this info (alkie less harmful than
the lead in 100LL) with my club. Can you either
summarize the reasoning from the Titan list, or tell
me how to access the thread on that list?
Thanks -
Arty Trost
Maxair Drifter
Sandy, Oregon
|
Hi Arty,
Actually, the thread continued on a while (though we devolved into a discussion of ethanol production and kind of went off on a tangent) and there still seem to be divergent opinions.
I got a PM that outlined some carburettor damage that was apparently traced to ethanol, something I'd consider very dangerous and that I hadn't given a lot of thought to.
So I don't think I can offer anythiing conclusive.
But with a little more research having been done, I'm swinging my opinion back the other way, where I think I'd be better off with 100LL and just accept a possibly reduced TBO and/or damage to the slipper clutch over time.
Those are preferable to me than rust on the innards and the sound of silence due to carburettor rubber part damage.
Or I could just go back to flying a 2-stroke, which can run on 100LL without problems (in my experience).
I'm going to have to make a decision quick, tho, as they're already spiking the gas in my area (but not marking the pumps as such)......
It's probably going to just be 100LL, which is the only non-alcohol containing gas in my area.....
LS
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LS
Titan II SS |
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: Re: 100LL long term vs. alkie |
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I am think Auto Gas containing Alcohol is much better for the 912-s than 100 LL. I have a fuel sump, and always check for water no matter what kind of fuel I am using, so water is not an issue.
Possible carburetor damage, almost everyone is being forced to buy ethanol now and reports will be coming in and I will know what to look for in the carbs long before there is a problem. Carburetors are easy to inspect and fix  Lead in my 912-s due to using 100 LL does many bad things, none of which are easy to fix. Being forced to run non synthetic oil will cause my 912-s to wear out much sooner than it should. This makes for a very easy choice for me, I will keep using Auto gas.
Mike
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lucien
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: Re: 100LL long term vs. alkie |
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| JetPilot wrote: | I am think Auto Gas containing Alcohol is much better for the 912-s than 100 LL. I have a fuel sump, and always check for water no matter what kind of fuel I am using, so water is not an issue.
Possible carburetor damage, almost everyone is being forced to buy ethanol now and reports will be coming in and I will know what to look for in the carbs long before there is a problem. Carburetors are easy to inspect and fix Lead in my 912-s due to using 100 LL does many bad things, none of which are easy to fix. Being forced to run non synthetic oil will cause my 912-s to wear out much sooner than it should. This makes for a very easy choice for me, I will keep using Auto gas.
Mike |
It's the water that _hasn't_ happened to have seperated out of the ethanol when I check the drain that really concerns me. It can then precipitate out later whilst in the engine unbeknownst to me and do absolutely nightmarish things.... BTDT and ain't goin there again!
As for the oil, the motor will go out to TBO fine with a semi-synthetic, I don't see that as a concern.
But so far with the info I've gotten both ways that it looks like 100LL barely eases out ahead of the spiked mogas in terms of reliability and longevity. There'll be a hike in the maintenance needed, but that's a lot better than rusted out bearings, etc......
That's the way I'm going to go, looks like (until an unleaded avgas appears if it ever appears )...
LS
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LS
Titan II SS |
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worrybear(at)verizon.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 3:22 am Post subject: 100LL long term vs. alkie |
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Just my 2 cents worth on 100LL. When doing the annual on the Champ I was
flying the lower plugs were fouled with so much lead you could hardly chip
it out with a ice pick. The IA at the airport told me that 100LL contained 7
times the lead that the old car leaded gas had, just hearsay. I am using a
mixture of about 25% 100 LL to car gas in my VW powered Turbulent.
Dan Walter
Ultrastar, Turbulent
Do Not Archive
---
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: 100LL long term vs. alkie |
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Dan is Correct,
The term 100 LOW LEAD is outright dishonest and misleading. 100LL Avgas has many times more lead in it than the old leaded car gas used to have.
Avgas would be better named 100 LWL... 100 Loaded With Lead.
JettPilot
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Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject: 100LL long term vs. alkie |
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At 09:02 PM 5/16/2008, JetPilot wrote:
| Quote: | The term 100 LOW LEAD is outright dishonest and misleading. 100LL Avgas
has many times more lead in it than the old leaded car gas used to have.
|
It's not dishonest or misleading at all. 100LL has about twice the lead
that car gas used to have, but it wasn't intended to be compared with car
gas; 100LL has less than half the lead of the 100/130 avgas it replaced.
Interestingly, I just came across this:
"Avgas 82 UL
This is a relatively new grade aimed at the low compression ratio engines
which don't need the high octane of Avgas 100 and could be designed to run
on unleaded fuel.
Avgas 82UL is dyed purple and specified in ASTM D 6227."
(from
<http://www.shell.com/home/content/aviation-en/productservice/aviationfuels/detail/avgasgradesspecs_10081006.html>
)
Wonder if/when we'll see it?
-Dana
--
The difference between a hero and a fool is the outcome.
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russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: 100LL long term vs. alkie |
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List, am I nuts? (questionable) -- but years ago wasn't Avgas 130
colored purple? I have no first-hand experience but am curious
do not archive
On May 18, 2008, at 6:22 PM, Dana Hague wrote:
| Quote: |
At 09:02 PM 5/16/2008, JetPilot wrote:
> The term 100 LOW LEAD is outright dishonest and misleading.
> 100LL Avgas has many times more lead in it than the old leaded car
> gas used to have.
It's not dishonest or misleading at all. 100LL has about twice the
lead that car gas used to have, but it wasn't intended to be
compared with car gas; 100LL has less than half the lead of the
100/130 avgas it replaced.
Interestingly, I just came across this:
"Avgas 82 UL
This is a relatively new grade aimed at the low compression ratio
engines which don't need the high octane of Avgas 100 and could be
designed to run on unleaded fuel.
Avgas 82UL is dyed purple and specified in ASTM D 6227."
(from <http://www.shell.com/home/content/aviation-en/productservice/
aviationfuels/detail/avgasgradesspecs_10081006.html> )
Wonder if/when we'll see it?
-Dana
--
The difference between a hero and a fool is the outcome.
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: 100LL long term vs. alkie |
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At 06:54 PM 5/18/2008, Russ Kinne wrote:
| Quote: | List, am I nuts? (questionable) -- but years ago wasn't Avgas 130
colored purple? I have no first-hand experience but am curious
do not archive
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I think it was 115/145 avgas that was purple, but yeah... the slang was
"grape juice".
-Dana
--
Televangelists: The Pro Wrestlers of religion.
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