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Another XL Down - Brazil
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ihab.awad(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 7:45 pm Post subject: Another XL Down - Brazil

On 5/6/08, Cndmovn <cndmovn(at)gmail.com (cndmovn(at)gmail.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   Just looked on the Emhart website and the rivets they manufacture are POP brand rivets that according to the website are not specified for aviation, but instead RV's and boats..... 	


That in and of itself is not an issue -- it may or may not be a problem. Sonex (and afaik the RV-12, and maybe even also the Rans S-19) use stainless steel Cherry "N" rivets, which seem like basically the same thing as the POP rivets.

 

I tried to look up the part numbers from the pictured receipt on Google, but found no useful hits. So I can't tell what material the rivets are made from. If the rivets were aluminum body/aluminum mandrel, for example, *that* would be a big issue!

 

Ihab



-- 

Ihab A.B. Awad, Palo Alto, CA  [quote][b]

moorecomp

Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 32

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil

All,



With all the questions regarding the materials used, on top of that, take a look at the placard that was on the panel:



http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/20-04-2008/p3280012.jpg



It reads; "Permitted aerobatics basic only. Never exceed +4/-4 G"



-4 G with substandard materials pretty much guarantees a structural failure.



Slippery airframe, sexy look, high time ag pilot, aerobatics, possible substandard materials=2 people dead. Sad day for all.



Best regards,



Craig Moore A&P

Mancelona, MI

TxDave

Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 168
Location: Temple, TX

Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil

Hey Larry M.,



Evidently, Zenith did not consider the modifications inappropriate. Pictures of the AirFox aircraft are featured in the 601XL photo galleries on the ZAC Web site . 



http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo104.html



Sebastien Heintz himself attended their rudder workshop and took the photos posted on this page:



http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-workshop-brazil.html

As far as the rivets being suspect...if you read the LARGE print on Aircraft Spruce's (or any other supplier's) listing for Avex rivets, you'll see they are considered to be "non-structural".



The first step in solving a problem is to admit that there is a problem. How many people have to die before we admit there just might be a possibility  that a problem exists.  Notice I said possibility!



Dave Clay

Andrewlieser

Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 43
Location: Chicagoland

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 3:42 am Post subject: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil

Dave, I too am ready to admit there is a POSSIBILITY that there may be something wrong.  My logic being that before I decided to build a Zodiac I researched accident data from everywhere I could on many designs (and found that every airplane/manufacturer/designer or experimental) has experienced losses at some point and this I found to be inherent to our hobby.  However none of the designs I researched have had fatal accidents reported with what seems to be this alarming of frequency.  If the problem is the builder/pilot/materials one would also have to assume that these rogue builders also exist with other manufacturers/designs as well, yet this type of accident frequency does not bear itself in those designs.  I hope and pray for the safety of all on this board that this is not the case and that the Zodiac is the airplane we all believe it to be structurally but right now I have to look at this and say hmmmmmm.  Just my opinion right now.

_________________
Andrew Lieser
S/N 6-7045
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:17 am Post subject: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil

Boy, I must have missed something. Admittedly my Portugese is very rusty, and there's not much to go on, but I didn't see anything about a break-up, and we're already focusing on the aluminum and rivets used in the construction as a cause? Sounds to me like he stalled it in a steep turn, entered a spin, and didn't recover. Perhaps the modifications did have something to do with the stall/spin behavior of the plane, but the rivets???

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: Another XL Down - Brazil

Very well said Andrew. If you look at other designs with same or higher numbers of planes flying (Sonex, 701, 601HD/S, KR), you don't see not even a single case of wing structural failure. Except with the RVs, but in all cases of RVs wing failures, the NTSB where able to conclude through metallurgical examination that the pilot exceeded  maximum gs. There where no "Structural failure of the wing for undetermined reasons". Furthermore, it is my understanding that Vans Aircraft did produce some changes to beef up the wing. It is also my understanding that cases of RVs wing failure hasn't happened since.



I keep building my XL because I'm pretty confident that whatever it is that is causing these accidents, the source of the problem and a solution will be found either by Zenith, NTSB, Independent analysis, a foreign government accident investigation or a mix of these.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami  Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom



Andrewlieser <Andrewlieser(at)gmail.com> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Andrewlieser" 



Dave, I too am ready to admit there is a POSSIBILITY that there may be something wrong.  My logic being that before I decided to build a Zodiac I researched accident data from everywhere I could on many designs (and found that every airplane/manufacturer/designer or experimental) has experienced losses at some point and this I found to be inherent to our hobby.  However none of the designs I researched have had fatal accidents reported with what seems to be this alarming of frequency.  If the problem is the builder/pilot/materials one would also have to assume that these rogue builders also exist with other manufacturers/designs as well, yet this type of accident [quote][b]

_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:15 am Post subject: Another XL Down - Brazil

All the conjecture about structurl failure seems to ignore the report-The plane seems to have been in a spin or spiral.  A spin is not likely to impose high stresses on the structure, although a bad recovery might, but there was no recovery described.  A spiral could result in structural failure as the turn tightens, but there was still no report of a failure, and further, the reason for entry to a fatal spiral while in plain view of the ground seems elusive.  Given that the plane had entered clouds, it is more likely that the plane entered an inadvertent spin due to disorientation.  If any design defect would seem to have a role, it might be the size of the rudder, if the pilot was unable to apply sufficient rudder to exit the spin, but there is little data to support or refute that conjecture.  I would point out that the Alarus comes with a bigger rudder for those who would like to spin the plane.  None of this is on point for other accidents involving structural failure, except the one in Britain where the pilot entered clouds and exited with a structural failure.  There is a simple way to mitigate the potential risk of this kind of accident- don't enter the clouds.  Materials seem irrelevant, unless it can be shown that a material failure led to a loss of control.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil

 From: moorecomp(at)yahoo.com

 Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:14:31 -0700

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "moorecomp" <moorecomp(at)yahoo.com>

 All,

 With all the questions regarding the materials used, on top of that, take a look at the placard that was on the panel:

 http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/20-04-2008/p3280012.jpg

 It reads; "Permitted aerobatics basic only. Never exceed +4/-4 G"

 -4 G with substandard materials pretty much guarantees a structural failure.

 Slippery airframe, sexy look, high time ag pilot, aerobatics, possible substandard materials=2 people dead. Sad day for all.

 Best regards,

 Craig Moore A&P

 Mancelona, MI

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181664#181664

 ======================

Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. IM anytime you're online.  [quote][b]

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: Another XL Down - Brazil

True, there is no mention of in-flight break-up anywhere so far. But the fact that this was an agricultural pilot with 16K hours of flying experience who could not recover from a spin at 3,500 feet in a plane with recent history of wing failures, seem to have created some suspicion. But as you say, the modifications could have prevented the pilot to recover from the spin.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

steveadams <dr_steve_adams(at)yahoo.com> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "steveadams" 



Boy, I must have missed something. Admittedly my Portugese is very rusty, and there's not much to go on, but I didn't see anything about a break-up, and we're already focusing on the aluminum and rivets used in the construction as a [quote][b]

_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:26 am Post subject: Another XL Down - Brazil

On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 06:02:33AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I keep building my XL because I'm pretty confident that whatever it is

 that is causing these accidents, the source of the problem and a solution

 will be found either by Zenith, NTSB, Independent analysis, a foreign

 government accident investigation or a mix of these.


	


This is exactly my thought on the subject. Someone will figure out the

problem, and we'll get a fix - whether that fix is structural, training, or

operational.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

carlossa52(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:59 am Post subject: Another XL Down - Brazil

None of the reports I've read so far mentions weather.

Carlos

Do not archive

On 5/7/08, Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 06:02:33AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote:

 > I keep building my XL because I'm pretty confident that whatever it is

 > that is causing these accidents, the source of the problem and a solution

 > will be found either by Zenith, NTSB, Independent analysis, a foreign

 > government accident investigation or a mix of these.



 This is exactly my thought on the subject. Someone will figure out the

 problem, and we'll get a fix - whether that fix is structural, training, or

 operational.

 --

 Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

 http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

 Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

 AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)




	


-- 

Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com

frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:20 am Post subject: Another XL Down - Brazil

My understanding of an early report was that the plane entered a cloud.  I have deleted the ppost, so I cannot confirm this.



[quote] Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 07:55:36 -0600

 From: carlossa52(at)gmail.com

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil

 

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Carlos Sa" <carlossa52(at)gmail.com>

 

 None of the reports I've read so far mentions weather.

 Carlos

 Do not archive

 

 

 On 5/7/08, Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com> wrote:

 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jay Maynard <jmaynard(at)conmicro.com>

 >

 > On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 06:02:33AM -0700, William Dominguez wrote:

 > > I keep building my XL because I'm pretty confident that whatever it is

 > > that is causing these accidents, the source of the problem and a solution

 > > will be found either by Zenith, NTSB, Independent analysis, a foreign

 > > government accident investigation or a mix of these.

 >

 > This is exactly my thought on the subject. Someone will figure out the

 > problem, and we'll get a fix - whether that fix is structural, training, or

 > operational.

 > --

 > Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com

 > http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net

 > Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)

 > AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 

 -- 

 Sent from Gmail for mo======

 

 

 

With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. Connect on the go.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:03 am Post subject: Another XL Down - Brazil

Hi guys,

The website construction pictures of the highly modified 601 show wet 

wings that could create weight management problems in flight. The site also

showed flush rivets being installed and filler being used over the wave 

created by them.  Probably a moot point with regard to the crash, but 

the aircraft

was boldly modified with the same enthusiasm of an automobile 

customizer.  I was impressed with the looks and the speed implied by the 

cabin modifications,

but the rest of the components, rudder pivots, cables and linkages could 

easily played into this crash if the plane was being flown hard.

Zenith can't police anyone that departs the plans and construction 

design details to build a "neat revised version of the 601" and there 

were plenty of comments

that this was not a wise thing for them to do, let alone providing 

offerings of a "kit with these revisions".  What it was about bold 

pilots probably applies to bold

builders that depart from the original design.



I'd advocate that you stay safe by keeping faith with the original 

Zenith plans and materials.  The rivets specified by Zenith may not meet 

Aerospace requirements,

but they offer consistency in performance and installation for the design



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

TxDave wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hey Larry M.,



 Evidently, Zenith did not consider the modifications inappropriate. Pictures of the AirFox aircraft are featured in the 601XL photo galleries on the ZAC Web site . 



 http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo104.html



 Sebastien Heintz himself attended their rudder workshop and took the photos posted on this page:



 http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-workshop-brazil.html

 As far as the rivets being suspect...if you read the LARGE print on Aircraft Spruce's (or any other supplier's) listing for Avex rivets, you'll see they are considered to be "non-structural".



 The first step in solving a problem is to admit that there is a problem. How many people have to die before we admit there just might be a possibility  that a problem exists.  Notice I said possibility!



 Dave Clay





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181668#181668

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil

As far as the structural failure accidents, I'm thinking aileron flutter. Even so, what did Vans do to beef up the RV wings?



[quote="William Dominguez"]Very well said Andrew. If you look at other designs with same or higher numbers of planes flying (Sonex, 701, 601HD/S, KR), you don't see not even a single case of wing structural failure. Except with the RVs, but in all cases of RVs wing failures, the NTSB where able to conclude through metallurgical examination that the pilot exceeded  maximum gs. There where no "Structural failure of the wing for undetermined reasons". Furthermore, it is my understanding that Vans Aircraft did produce some changes to beef up the wing. It is also my understanding that cases of RVs wing failure hasn't happened since.



I keep building my XL because I'm pretty confident that whatever it is that is causing these accidents, the source of the problem and a solution will be found either by Zenith, NTSB, Independent analysis, a foreign government accident investigation or a mix of these.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami  Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom



Andrewlieser <Andrewlieser> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Andrewlieser" 



Dave, I too am ready to admit there is a POSSIBILITY that there may be something wrong.  My logic being that before I decided to build a Zodiac I researched accident data from everywhere I could on many designs (and found that every airplane/manufacturer/designer or experimental) has experienced losses at some point and this I found to be inherent to our hobby.  However none of the designs I researched have had fatal accidents reported with what seems to be this alarming of frequency.  If the problem is the builder/pilot/materials one would also have to assume that these rogue builders also exist with other manufacturers/designs as well, yet this type of accident  	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: Another XL Down - Brazil

I'm not familiar with the details, but it was mentioned by a poster of this list a while back. Do a search for "wing failure" in the RV list for some discussions.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom



ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" 



As far as the structural failure accidents, I'm thinking aileron flutter. Even so, what did Vans do to beef up the RV wings?



[quote="William Dominguez"]Very well said Andrew. If you look at other designs with same or higher numbers of planes flying (Sonex, 701, 601HD/S, KR), you don't see not even a single case of wing structural failure. Except with the RVs, but in all cases of RVs wing failures, the NTSB where able to conclude through metallurgical examination  that the pilot exceeded  maximum gs. There where no "Structural failure of the wing for undetermined reasons". Furthermore, it is my understanding that Vans Aircraft did produce some changes to beef up the wing. It is also my understanding that cases of RVs wing failure hasn't happened since.



I keep building my XL because I'm pretty confident that whatever it is that is causing these accidents, the source of the problem and a solution will be found either by Zenith, NTSB, Independent analysis, a foreign government accident investigation or a mix of these.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami  Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom



Andrewlieser  wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Andrewlieser" 



Dave, I too am ready to admit there is a POSSIBILITY that there may be something wrong.  My logic being that before I decided to build a Zodiac I researched accident data from everywhere I could on many designs (and [quote][b]

_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil

 	  William Dominguez wrote: 	
		  I'm pretty confident that whatever it is that is causing these accidents, the source of the problem and a solution will be found either by Zenith, NTSB, Independent analysis, a foreign government accident investigation or a mix of these. 	


We shouldn't hold out much hope for any of these groups finding a solution, with the possible exception of Zenith.  I would hope that they would be free to communicate any findings without fear of legal backlash, instead of keeping mum.  We builders are as likely as anyone to figure out what's happening.



It's only a matter of time before somebody with a BRS actually survives a structural failure and then is able to give a first hand account of what happened.  With the summer flying season upon us, I think we'll have a few more data points by the time Oshkosh rolls around.  Survivable data points, I pray...



 	  William Dominguez wrote: 	
		  Furthermore, it is my understanding that Vans Aircraft did produce some changes to beef up the wing. It is also my understanding that cases of RVs wing failure hasn't happened since. 	


Does anyone know what those changes were?  How did the "old" Van's wing compare with the current Zodiac XL wing...?

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: Another XL Down - Brazil

was not installed. I have confirmed this today on a direct  email to a Brazilian friend. 

  

  

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: Another XL Down - Brazil

no clouds were on the comments I´ve read.  

  

 Alberto Martin

Iberplanes IGL 

http://www.iberplanes.es

Igualada -  Barcelona - España



 [quote]   ---

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Andrewlieser

Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 43
Location: Chicagoland

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil

I've been looking around the internet here because I to would be interested to know what Vans did to beef up there wing and found an old RV-3 accident report that was actually quite thorough and it relates to a sequence of wing failures they had with the RV-3 at that time and the integrity of Vans to recognize these failures as result in part because of the design as well as provide a solution (I believe CH would do exactly the same if there is a flaw discovered).  Here is the link if anyone is interested:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001211X09658&ntsbno=FTW98FA145&akey=1

Also let me preface this by saying "I am not suggesting anything" and "this is purely just for comparison" but I found it interesting that the new RV-12 wing has 13 ribs per wing, more than the Zodiac XL yet they have very similar specs (XL wing span 27 ft, RV-12 is 26'8ft / XL wing area 132 SQF, RV'12 is 127SQF, XL wing loading is 9.85 lbs psf, RV-12 is 10.4 lbs psf).  Again this is just for comparison and my own inquizitive mind that is all.  

Of all this I do believe that the folks at Zenith will figure this out and I too will continue to build.

_________________
Andrew Lieser
S/N 6-7045
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser

Andrewlieser

Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 43
Location: Chicagoland

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil

Link to the picture of the Vans wing if anyone is interested.

http://picasaweb.google.com/JimCone1941/RV12ConstructionPhotos/photo#5191820553241954290

_________________
Andrew Lieser
S/N 6-7045
http://websites.expercraft.com/andrewlieser

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: Another XL Down - Brazil

I didn't see the "entered a cloud" in any of the translations. That comment came from one poster and where he dug that up is beyond me. 

do not archive 

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- Frank Roskind <frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

All the conjecture about structurl failure seems to ignore the report-The plane seems to have been in a spin or spiral.  A spin is not likely to impose high stresses on the structure, although a bad recovery might, but there was no recovery described.  A spiral could result in structural failure as the turn tightens, but there was still no report of a failure, and further, the reason for entry to a fatal spiral while in plain view of the ground seems elusive.  Given that the plane had entered clouds, it is more likely that the plane entered an inadvertent spin due to disorientation.  If any design defect would seem to have a role, it might be the size of the rudder, if the pilot was unable to apply sufficient rudder to exit the spin, but there is little data to support or refute that conjecture.  I would point out that the Alarus comes with a bigger rudder for those who would like to spin the plane.  None of this is on point for other accidents involving structural failure, except the one in Britain where the pilot entered clouds and exited with a structural failure.  There is a simple way to mitigate the potential risk of this kind of accident- don't enter the clouds.  Materials seem irrelevant, unless it can be shown that a material failure led to a loss of control.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Another XL Down - Brazil

 From: moorecomp(at)yahoo.com

 Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 22:14:31 -0700

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: "moorecomp" <moorecomp(at)yahoo.com>

 

 All,

 

 With all the questions regarding the materials used, on top of that, take a look at the placard that was on the panel:

 

 http://portal.ucpel.tche.br/py3vhq/home/Zodiac/fotos/20-04-2008/p3280012.jpg

 

 It reads; "Permitted aerobatics basic only. Never exceed +4/-4 G"

 

 -4 G with substandard materials pretty much guarantees a structural failure.

 

 Slippery airframe, sexy look, high time ag pilot, aerobatics, possible substandard materials=2 people dead. Sad day for all.

 

 Best regards,

 

 Craig Moore A&P

 Mancelona, MI

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=181664#181664

 

 

 

 

 

 ======================

 

 

 


	




 

   

Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. IM anytime you're online.  	  Quote: 	
		  



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