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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:28 am Post subject: Flying Naked

At 12:44 PM 2/27/06 -0000, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  the first of of your problems. If you fly illegally, that means 

automatically that no insurance will pay out. They are just looking for an 

excuse to hang onto the money. An argument that the changes you made 

increased the safety factor will cut no ice whatsoever. If the insurers are 

hep to the regulations THEY will insist on weighing, never mind the FAA.


	


Pat,



I have not been able to find anyone who will insure a legal ultralight 

vehicle.  Has anyone been able to get insurance on an FireFly that does not 

have an N number and the pilot does not hold a certificate?



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:38 pm Post subject: Flying Naked

In a message dated 2/27/06 12:29:37 PM Central Standard Time, 

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net writes:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have not been able to find anyone who will insure a legal ultralight 

 vehicle.  Has anyone been able to get insurance on a FireFly that does not 

 have an N number and the pilot does not hold a certificate?

 

 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN

 


	


Hi Jack,   ( Boy do you got to be careful around the Airlines)



USUA has a good program. I signed up last year. You have to do a few things:



1 Get your UL pilot license from an approved UL association.

2 register your UL with an approved organization.  Mine is with EAA. If you 

are a member they do it for free.  My Firefly is E016SB.

3 You have to be a member of USUA



That''s it.  The agent is First Flight Insurance Group.  Call Dawne 252 261 

0292

or check the USUA website.



Steve B

Firefly #007

tkrolfe(at)usadatanet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject: Flying Naked

Jack B. Hart wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



At 12:44 PM 2/27/06 -0000, you wrote:

  



>

>    

>



  



>the first of of your problems. If you fly illegally, that means 

>automatically that no insurance will pay out. They are just looking for an 

>excuse to hang onto the money. An argument that the changes you made 

>increased the safety factor will cut no ice whatsoever. If the insurers are 

>hep to the regulations THEY will insist on weighing, never mind the FAA.

>    

>



Pat,



I have not been able to find anyone who will insure a legal ultralight 

vehicle.  Has anyone been able to get insurance on an FireFly that does not 

have an N number and the pilot does not hold a certificate?



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN



  




	


Jack,



Sure you can as long as your willing to jump through enough hoops, bow 

to the appropriate God's and pay the required fee.  I guess that is what 

separates the Part 103 flyers from the rest of the crowd, the need to be 

free of all the regulations.   The Wright Bros. would never have been 

able to leave the ground if trying to do what they did with today's 

regulations.  Think they were insured?!!!!!!



Every sport I know of has slowly become regulated to death for the 

convenience of those who are less daring!  I also allows the formation 

of exclusive clubs where only those approved or have enough money are 

allowed to benefit.

Terry -  FireFly #95

cartejy(at)mtn-state.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:33 pm Post subject: Flying Naked

Jack, re insurance..check the USUA web site, they have insurance with some

conditions, My KXP is being put into the Lite Sport Exp cat about ready for

transition. Jay Carter PV_SEL & GLDR KXP &503,take care.

---

Mike Schnabel

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 114
Location: Manchester, TN

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: Flying Naked

Terry,

   

  Very well said. Not just this quote, but all the rest of your commentary...

   

  Mike S

  Manchester TN

  FireStar 2, 503

   

  do not archive

   

   

   

  



Terry Frantz <tkrolfe(at)usadatanet.net> wrote:

   

  The Wright Bros. would never have been able to leave the ground if trying to do what they did with today's regulations. Think they were insured?!

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Flying Naked

 	  tkrolfe(at)usadatanet.net wrote: 	
		  



Sure you can as long as your willing to jump through enough hoops, bow 

to the appropriate God's and pay the required fee.  I guess that is what 

separates the Part 103 flyers from the rest of the crowd, the need to be 

free of all the regulations.   The Wright Bros. would never have been 

able to leave the ground if trying to do what they did with today's 

regulations.  Think they were insured?!!!!!!



Every sport I know of has slowly become regulated to death for the 

convenience of those who are less daring!  I also allows the formation 

of exclusive clubs where only those approved or have enough money are 

allowed to benefit.

Terry -  FireFly #95 	




Amen Brother !!!



Everything is being regulated according to the ability absalute weakest and stupidest people on the planet.    Its gone way past just government regulation,  with the civil court system, the personal injury lawyers do their best to get the 6 most ignorant jurors on the panel so that they can win thier case...  So the result is nationl policy is being decided by groups of 6 of the most stupid people this country has to offer... 



Its a corrupt and very messed up system.

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

rsanoa

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 71
Location: Bell Buckle,TN

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:32 am Post subject: Flying Naked

JetPilot <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> wrote:     

tkrolfe(at)usadatanet.net wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  >  <<<<<<Every sport I know of has slowly become regulated to death for the 

convenience of those who are less daring! I 
	




  Terry - FireFly #95



Amen Brother !!!



<<<<<<< the personal injury lawyers do their best to get the 6 most ignorant jurors on the panel so that they can win their case... So the result is national policy is being decided by groups of 6 of the most stupid people this country has to offer... >>>>>>>

_________________
Ray S.Anderson

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:44 am Post subject: Flying Naked

Ray --



I have sight issues, too, with my left eye, and am an avid flyer, so don't

think for a minute that you can't fly any longer.



I'd ignore these anti-personal-injury-lawyer yahoos...  Lawyers are people,

and just like opthalmologists, there are good lawyers and bad lawyers.  It's

the bad ones that I think are causing 90% of the tort problems.  But if you

find a good lawyer, then I'd sue the bastard.  I've been lucky... been under

the care of a top ophthalmologist for over 25 years, and done a lot of

studying of eye problems.  From your description, I could have told you it's

a detached retina, and I'm not a doctor!  The first ophthalmologist is a

menance to anyone that goes to him, and even if you don't get any monetary

result from a suit, you need to send a message.  As for anyone that

complains about personal injury lawyers, let them walk (half-blindly) a mile

in your shoes and I'd bet they'd change their tune.  This, of course, is

just my opinion.



  -- Robert



do not archive

On 2/28/06, ray anderson <rsanoa(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 



 JetPilot <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> wrote:     --> Kolb-List message posted

 by: "JetPilot"

 tkrolfe(at)usadatanet.net wrote:



 >>  <<<<<<Every sport I know of has slowly become regulated to death for

 the

 convenience of those who are less daring! I



   Terry - FireFly #95



 Amen Brother !!!



 <<<<<<< the personal injury lawyers do their best to get the 6 most

 ignorant jurors on the panel so that they can win their case... So the

 result is national policy is being decided by groups of 6 of the most stupid

 people this country has to offer... >>>>>>>

 .

 I shared the above sentiments until I became the victim. What to do? What

 to do? I have a nice Ultra Star sitting in the hanger for months now because

 of what the personal injury 'trial lawyers' declare to be a case of medical

 malpractice. Should one ask for compensation? Or feel that is something only

 "white trash"

   does. A few months ago, driving from where I keep the Ultra Star to my

 home a few miles away, my left eye suddenly filled with a rash of small

 black dots that soon changed to small flashes of colored light. By the time

 I got home, I was blind In that eye. Too late to see my ophthalmologist

 until the next morning. Saw him early and he examined and concluded I was

 having an infection in the inner eye. Placed on regimen of steroid eye drops

 and anti biotics. Saw him every few days, total of 16 visits for eye

 examination, still treating for infection (iritis). Numerous blood tests,

 sample of the fluid in the eye sent for culture. All negative. This over a

 period of 2-1/2 months. Still blind.. See a second ophthalmologist for

 second opinion. In five minutes he says, you have had a detached retina for

 a long time. It is badly scared, torn and wrinkled. Need major surgery to

 try and reattach but don't expect any sight. To his surprise, I have what is

 called ambulatory sight in it.

   Can

 walk about with the eye, slowly, without bumping into objects, no depth

 perception, can't read with the eye. Objects distorted and tilted and out of

 sync with the good eye so I wear an eye patch when driving or reading with

 the good eye. My life is upside down because the first doctor, in 16 visits

 and 2-1/2 months, failed to see the detached retina although he advertises

 on his web site that he is a retina specialist. Would have perfect vision in

 the eye if reattached within a few days or even a week.

   Now what would you do? Consult with one of the despised personal injury

 'trial lawyers'  and be accused of helping run up the cost of medicine, or

 do nothing. I'm still doing nothing because of the stigma of suing a doctor.

   I'm still not ready to start flying the Ultra Star again with one eye,

 although it is legal.  Many do. I will this summer I'm sure. There are two

 side to the coin about personal injury 'trial lawyers'

   ULTRA STAR -----Tenn.



   Do Not Archive.



 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D18417#18417





 ---------------------------------

 Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail  makes sharing a breeze.

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject: Flying Naked

insure a legal ultralight vehicle.>>



Hi Jack,



things are very different here. If you fly you MUST have a license. Your 

aircraft will either be an ultralight, and be below a certain weight, wing 

loading   and stall speed or you will be a Light Aircraft.



In either case your plane type will have been through the laid down tests to 

make sure that it is flyable and that the wings won`t fall off or the fuel 

supply dry up at full throttle etc., and your individual machine will have 

been scrutinised during the build process to ensure that the workmanship is 

up to scratch and that you have not departed from the plans, stuck a 20 

gallon fuel tank in the tail or similar foolishness. A Permission to Test 

Certificate will then be issued and there is a fairly straightforward test 

schedule to be carried out and a certain number of hours flown within a 

certain distance from your field.  Mine has a couple of hours of the Test 

Schedule on at the moment, flown by Kiwimick who is the dealer. 

Unfortunately he is quite a bit further North than I am and the weather 

there has been pretty awful so that has curtailed things a bit.



Sticking in  a different engine  from the `approved` one will take you back 

to the original testing.  Part of the reason that mine is taking so long, 

it has been ready to fly for months now, is a problem with the weight and 

the fact that the engineering dept. of the PFA which has to sign mine off 

has had 3 staff leave in the last 3 months or so and one guy is trying to do 

everything.



Although this may strike you as being needless bureaucracy the up side is 

that there is no problem getting insurance because insurers know that the 

machine is built to a proper standard and the pilot will have had a proper 

training course.



There is no such thing as an unregistered aircraft. All UK a/c prefix with a 

`G` and within limits you can choose the registration. Things like G-WHIZ 

for instance. Mine is G-PLAD. Unfortunately G-LADD had already been issued 

to a helicopter in Ireland.



We went through the stage of `build what you like and fly it` a long time 

ago and although a lot of fun was had in those days there were a lot of 

injuries and a few fatalities. At that point an Association was formed, 

rules drawn up etc., and in general we look after our own bureaucracy under 

the generally watchful eye of the CAA and escape the worst of governmental 

interference.

There is a nasty case on at the moment where an instructor who it is alleged 

did not make sure that a Mandatory Modification, involving some extra rivets 

was  done properly is being charged with manslaughter of the guy who was 

killed in the resulting crash. Things are being tightened up all round as 

you can imagine.



Cheers



Pat





--

edchmiel(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject: Flying Naked

Well said, Ray.  I'm sorry for your vision problems and the doc who wasn't 

on the ball when you needed it.  It's good you present the other side of the 

coin.  It's amazing what viewing things from a more balanced perspective 

will do.  I know several trial lawyers, and count them as friends.  Most 

don't make the megabucks that's alleged, and do much more good than their 

corporate brethren.



Jett Pilot, with that spelling, I want you on my jury!!



Ed in JXN

MkII/503

Do not archive.

---

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject: Flying Naked

The Wright Bros. would never have been able to leave the ground >>



Hi Mike,



you are of course quite right but no early factory, building site,coal 

mine, foundry etc., would have started if they had to labour under todays 

regulations.

Although in theory it was great and carefree I doubt if you would be happy 

working under those conditions. It is all very well being tough and gung-ho 

but what happens to the guy you kill when you are driving your car or plane 

with no insurance?

When the old timers go on about `what we did then` and scoff at the modern 

pantywaists ask them how many ended their careers as basket cases with 

busted bodies or lungs full of coal dust or asbestos.

Sure we are over controlled now and I deplore it but it is OK as long as it 

concerns just you. As soon as some other party is involved then they should 

expect some consideration. Falling out of the sky on an innocent bystander 

in a plane you have built yourself is not a chance I am prepared to take.

Of course the chance of falling on someone here is probably rather higher 

than in the States.



Cheers



Pat



do not archive 



--

tkrolfe(at)usadatanet.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:56 pm Post subject: Flying Naked

pat ladd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



 The Wright Bros. would never have been able to leave the ground >>



Hi Mike,



you are of course quite right but no early factory, building site,coal 

mine, foundry etc., would have started if they had to labour under todays 

regulations.

Although in theory it was great and carefree I doubt if you would be happy 

working under those conditions. It is all very well being tough and gung-ho 

but what happens to the guy you kill when you are driving your car or plane 

with no insurance?

When the old timers go on about `what we did then` and scoff at the modern 

pantywaists ask them how many ended their careers as basket cases with 

busted bodies or lungs full of coal dust or asbestos.

Sure we are over controlled now and I deplore it but it is OK as long as it 

concerns just you. As soon as some other party is involved then they should 

expect some consideration. Falling out of the sky on an innocent bystander 

in a plane you have built yourself is not a chance I am prepared to take.

Of course the chance of falling on someone here is probably rather higher 

than in the States.



Cheers



Pat



do not archive 



  



Pat,
	




I believe what you have just stated what defines the difference that has 

existed for more than two hundred years between our two cultures.  

There's the very rational thinking of submitting to authority for it's 

benefits with their lost of individual freedom and the rash independence 

of individuals who believe they should be allowed to fail on their own 

without government oversight.  I believe some wars have been fought over 

this concept.  Sadly, I see our country following the same path as you 

describe.  I am surprised they haven't done away with Part 103 all 

together, now with the new Sports Aviation coming on board.  One of the 

reasons I belong to EAA is because they fought to keep it intact.



I too do not wish to subject others to danger because of my actions, but 

should be allowed to risk my own neck in pursuit of life fulfilling 

ambitions.  I could have fallen on someone while sky diving and injured 

them that way, didn't have insurance for that either.  If someone 

follows Part 103 regs. in the conduct of their flying, they are putting 

very few people at risk and no one can eliminate all risk or provide 

near enough money for those few incidents that that will occur.   The 

insurance companies would like us all to believe otherwise so that they 

can make their millions.  Guess who tries to get out of paying when 

there is an incident!



I too would consider buying liability insurance to protect others if it 

was made easier to obtain and more reasonable in cost based on actual 

lost/cost on our type of flying.  I should not have to join a particular 

organization to qualify.  What I was saying is that the artificial 

hurdles placed in the path to do so are objectionable.



Terry -  FireFly  #95



P's.  I promise not to fly over your house!!



DO NOT ARCHIVE

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Flying Naked

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  

Although in theory it was great and carefree I doubt if you would be happy 

working under those conditions.  Falling out of the sky on an innocent bystander 

in a plane you have built yourself is not a chance I am prepared to take.

Of course the chance of falling on someone here is probably rather higher 

than in the States.



Cheers



Pat



do not archive 



-- 	




I have lived in South America recently, and people here just done realize how controlled our lives have become and how much freedom we have lost due to the constant worry of "liability".  Protecting workers from obvious wrongdoing is great, but the whole thing has gone WAY TO FAR.    It is now a corrupt system that enriches lawyers and judges, while harming our society far more than most know.   A good legal system that prevents obvious wrong doing by companies and people would be great.  A system that awards some stupid lady 1,000,000 dollars because McDonalds sold her hot coffee while driving a stickshift is just bad.   Our suit happy society that makes no one responsible for thier own actions anymore and is just plan bad for all of us.  



As far as ultralights go,  50,000 people a year are killed in auto accidents by bad drivers...  None by ultralights falling on thier heads.  You are more likely to kill someone while playing a game of soccor with them than you are by crashing your ultralight into someone.  The possibility of killing people on the ground with an ultralight is just to remote to even worry about.   If there is a place to regulate and fix things, its on the roads.   Regulating our sport, while doing very little to take drunk, old, and bad drivers off the roads is just idiotic.  The average person is a Moron, they will get up in arms over ultralights because its something exciting and different and scarey while ignoring the bad drivers that are really a threat to them and thier families.   Auto accidents, and everyday real threats are just not interesting or exciting enough to get peoples attention.



Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Kirk Smith

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 78
Location: SE Michigan

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: Flying Naked

That's just the problem. Flying naked......procreation has gone nuts. More

people, more regs.  We need more dogs Mike.......



Do not arcjive......

Steven Green

Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 118

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:04 pm Post subject: Flying Naked

If I wasn't already a stickler for having liability insurance this would

have convinced me.  Maybe it will convince some others.



Steven Green

do not archive

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have lived in South America recently, and people here just done realize

how controlled our lives have become and how much freedom we have lost due
	


to the constant worry of "liability".  Protecting workers from obvious

wrongdoing is great, but the whole thing has gone WAY TO FAR.    It is now a

corrupt system that enriches lawyers and judges, while harming our society

far more than most know.   A good legal system that prevents obvious wrong

doing by companies and people would be great.  A system that awards some

stupid lady 1,000,000 dollars because McDonalds sold her hot coffee while

driving a stickshift is just bad.   Our suit happy society that makes no one

responsible for thier own actions anymore and is just plan bad for all of

us.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 As far as ultralights go,  50,000 people a year are killed in auto

accidents by bad drivers...  None by ultralights falling on thier heads.
	


You are more likely to kill someone while playing a game of soccor with them

than you are by crashing your ultralight into someone.  The possibility of

killing people on the ground with an ultralight is just to remote to even

worry about.   If there is a place to regulate and fix things, its on the

roads.   Regulating our sport, while doing very little to take drunk, old,

and bad drivers off the roads is just idiotic.  The average person is a

Moron, they will get up in arms over ultralights because its something

exciting and different and scarey while ignoring the bad drivers that are

really a threat to them and thier families.   Auto accidents, and everyday

real threats are just not interesting or exciting enough to get peoples

attention.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Michael A. Bigelow



 --------

 NO FEAR -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have

!!!
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  



 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=18589#18589

_________________
Steven Green

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:13 am Post subject: Flying Naked

I should not have to join a particular organization to qualify.  >>



Hi Terry,



We do not HAVE to, but if the organisation is doing their job they should be 

able to get  a better deal  than you can as an individual. If that 

orgasnisation enforces strict standards of build or airmanship that would 

give even more power to their elbow.



Thanks for the offer not o fly over my house. Make sure you do not fly over 

my cat either. Although I got her as a stray, she will be worth at least 

$20,000 of you fall on her.



Cheers



Pat



do not archive 



--

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:18 am Post subject: Flying Naked

Hi Jet Pilot,

I agree with everything you said.



What really makes me annoyed is  the fact that the courts will accept as an 

excuse for wrongdoing `Please sir, I was drunk at the time`



If someone cannot hold their liquor they shouldn`t drink  In the same way 

that those who suffer from claustraphobia shouldn`t get in lifts (elevators)



Cheers



Pat



do not archive 



--

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Flying Naked

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  

What really makes me annoyed is  the fact that the courts will accept as an 

excuse for wrongdoing `Please sir, I was drunk at the time`



If someone cannot hold their liquor they shouldn`t drink  In the same way 

that those who suffer from claustraphobia shouldn`t get in lifts (elevators)



Cheers



Pat

	




You hit on a very common one Pat.  Someone gets drunk, drives and kills someone.   The bar, the waitress, and the auto manufacturer gets sued... Its not about who committed the act, or even justice.. It is just a matter of going after anyone that has money, because the idiot that got drunk and drives is usually broke already....  Legalized extorsion..



Our legal system is not at all about justice, or right or wrong anymnore     It is about suing and taking money from anyone or business you can.  As long as the cash keeps flowing attorneys can get rich, the courts can reman clogged, more judges can be appointed. etc. etc....   Its Americas form of corruption.



Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:02 pm Post subject: Flying Naked

There is a contingent of folks that think it's better NOT to have insurance

for this very reason... without insurance and the possibility of someone

suing you (thus, the insurance company) and getting huge sums, it's not

worth the lawyers trouble, i.e., you become a much, much tinier target, so

they don't bother.  If you don't have a lot of assets, it seems to me it's a

valid argument.



  -- Robert



do not archive



On 3/1/06, JetPilot <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 It is about suing and taking money from anyone or business you can.  As

 long as the cash keeps flowing attorneys can get rich, the courts can reman

 clogged, more judges can be appointed. etc. etc....   Its Americas form of

 corruption.

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

esteuber(at)rochester.rr.
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:32 pm Post subject: Flying Naked

Ray,

      With your experience I don't believe you will have much trouble flying with one eye.......

      I am flying a Cessna Caravan 208B as copilot for ITT Space Systems Lab and the guy that is the pilot has one eye. He lost one in a homebuilt wreck when he was 17 and is over 50 now and has had a pretty good aviation career. He is a better pilot than I am and I'm pretty good...just ask me !

                   Modest Ed in Western NY

    PS ......Ever hear of Wiley Post ?

           do not archive

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